The black dice upgrades do make the ion cannon upgrades look fairly unexciting. Which is a shame with the Ion version of the VSD and Raider carrying a price premium.

Raider 1 with APT seems like an almost ideal missile boat.

You still have to get and stay in black dice range. Demolisher can do it fine, but not any other ships. Issues of iniative and survivability definitely balance this out. Dodannas pride has a lot larger range band overall, which makes it easier to use and get points out of it.

These will have you bidding for first player. I see early turns activating this last to get it in a double arc shot of an ISD front arc, then next turn activate first, smack the crap out of the ImpStars face.then scream around to the rear, maybe with a a nav token or command to slow to 3 or g eery an extra click to start flanking. It wont kill the ISD, but its front will be hurting, a lot. And facing the rest of your fleet.

It's a good thing I bid for first anyways

The MC30c was always slated as the Cap Ship killer. That's its job, and it is very good at its job

I am more and more stunned by your prophetic capabilities.. please tell me why this does not qualify for a vacuum argument as well?

You can go right ahead and place this ship into a vacuum argument but you are not doing it justice at that point. R

As I have stated earlier, I had created proxy ship plates and had a mockup of the MC30's capabilities as we knew them. I have the clicks at the speeds wrong but I expected as much during my testing. I found the MC30 is an actual pain for a Gladiator to deal with. Fun times

I think large ships have to worry now.

The Gladiator was dangerous to the MC80 but only in the idea that it could hit from the front or rear. The MC30 has this capability as well but is arguably better because it can survive and has access to the Turbolaser upgrade and Ordinance upgrade slots.

The medium ships have to be careful. They are good but they will need support. The large ships have enough base firepower to be a threat but the medium ships need to be wary of their weaknesses.

The VSD is likely the strongest against the MC30. The reason for this is because it can stay slow and just maneuver till it gets the arcs it needs. The MC30 has horrible speed 4 clicks so it will not arc as good as the CR90 will and even worse than the speed 4 Raider. This means the VSD has time unless the MC30 try to blow pass for a close range salvo. Which be dangerous due to the front arc. . .

Ever think some MC30 commanders will hope to get tractor beamed just so they can maneuver on the pass?

Meh. MEH. Very deadly but everyone seems to be overlooking the fact that these guys don't have a brace and only have 4 hull. Also, there is no way for them to move and then attack like Demolisher can. Could be scary with Reikan, but if you are playing Reikan you aren't playing Dodonna/Mothma. Almost comes across as a kamikaze type ship. Also, too expensive IMO for what you get out of it.

Not sold on APT replacing ACM. It's a faceup damage before all other damage is resolved vs 2 damage to shields/hull before damage is resolved. I still think ACM is better but will try both.

Ironically, I think this is precisely I would lean towards APTs over ACMs on a Glad/Raider. Land just one damage to the hull, and you're 25% there. Land the double-damage crit twice (low odds, I know), and that's the ball game.

From an Imperial player's standpoint, this thing is FULL of goodies. Those upgrade cards are immensely nice. I'd already figured my Raider would only be doing work either with Overload Pulse to tag-team with an ISD, or running defense against squadrons. I didn't like its straight offensive capability enough to make it a gunship. With those Assault Proton Torpedoes and Screed or Ordnance Experts, the Raider just got a massive offensive boost.

Agreed. This ship is a glass cannon... a really fast, cool glass cannon, but I feel pretty good about a Glad's chances of taking it on if I can keep the fight quick. The Screed/APT/Ordnance Experts combo looks like a really reliable way to rack up quick damage.

Well, I figure anything Squadron Related will be Next Post...

That includes both For and Against squadrons...

Perhaps as well, we'll see the Independance title that way... Who knows...

I really hope so. Bring on the Independence, please!

Oh snap, its garbage against a ship that doesn't have the same role, especially when in this hypothetical situation where the Gladiator has every advantage. And if you leave any ship in dual arc at close range from a Glad you're asking to lose it, not just the MC30

Stop It. Seriously. MC-30 is NOT a Gladiator. Do not treat it as such. They don't do the same things, and the only things they have in common are small ship size, a predilection for close combat, and the fact they are both pieces in this game. Saying "Well its garbage compared to a Demolisher or even a regular Glad" just shows how little you understand this game's nuances.

Yes, I know I'm being hostile, but I've had enough of people trying to compare apples and oranges when apparently they're friggin' color blind. It's gotten to the point where its just absurd now.

Um, this is a game where everything has a point value, so comparing things of similar point values is exactly the kind of nuanced decisions we have to make in this game.

You wouldn't compare a Nebulon Escort Frigate and a Gladiator 1 on equal terms would you? They have totally different roles and threat profiles. But they're only 1 point different. Same with Assault Frigates and VSD's. They're only a few points off at their respective variants. But they do different things. The MC30 does NOT do the same things as a Gladiator. The faction identities are completely different, and you really can't compare ships cross-factionally.

Some very simplistic calcs on the torpedo frigate.

Assuming it has ordnance experts and assault torpedoes.

If dual arcing on an ISD or other "big" thing...

Front arc - with rerolls, I'd expect at least two hits on the blacks, lets say with rerolls you get three hits (ie a it crit plus a hit) plus a hit from the blue, so 4 hits, incl a hit crit.

So 4 damage, plus a face up card. The ISD will probly redirect three to the non receiving arc, but not brace (?).

Then side arc. Rough calc with rerolls - 4 hits from the black (includes a hit crit), plus a hit and an ACC from the blues. Use the Accuracy on the brace.

So the ISD will again redirect what it can (it has two), so assume the 4 hits get soaked on shields.

So - from this one volley, we have what was a full strength ISD now severely lacking in shields (is probably lost nearly three arcs of shields!) and its carrying two face up damage cards, which may be deblilitating (especially for dodonna).

MC30 now has the option of either fighting it out at close range, or getting out of there as quick as possible. Either way, ISD is now a big target, and certainly incapable of closing with a Mon Cal Cruiser.

The obvious question - will MC30 survive getting into this position? Of course in a "vacuum" this is too hard to answer. But lets say on the way in you are particularly poor in positioning and bear the brunt of a medium range ISD II front arc (4 reds, 4 blues). Lets say ISD has enough rerolls/upgrades to get three accuracies and seven damage (ie around 5 from 4 red dice, plus a couple from blues). The redirects are shut down by the acc, so the MC30 will be VERY luck to survive, especially if ISD has any support at all in the vicinity.

3 accuracy and 7 damage is the high end of the spectrum I think.

Against an ISD I would let them fire at long range as a glide around at speed 3 (the sweet spot for the MC30 I think)

If one had to take the front shot I think it is 50-50. The ISD II does in fact have a great chance to one shot the MC30. Everything else needs 2 to 3 shots for that.

This ship will take tons of practice! I think we will see many Massing at Sullust battle reports of Imperial victories. . . A difficult small ship to learn will be harsh on people.

is anyone else going to paint their MC30 pink?

is anyone else going to paint their MC30 pink?

One is shrimp colored, one is blue to match my Blue Majesty fleet, (naming it Blue Rook)

A damaged version in Green for Scars of Freedom (it needs a buddy)

A black one for my Stealth fleet

And lastly one painted to look like a mantis shrimp

For over 60 points, and given their role, I would have really liked an extra Torpedo upgrade slot on at least the Torpedo variant. Make it a true close range suicidal terror.

Finally some black dice (Evil grin) I'm really excited to learn the MC30 and put it into action.

My first thought on how to use the Torpedo Frigate would be close support. I really see this ship as a glass cannon and the role I intend for it is close support for a Whale or MC80. Rieekan will be a no brainer when using the Torpedo class since he will guarantee if my ship pops I will still get the chance to unload a shot or 2. Placement of this ship next to and near the ship I intend for it to defend will be critical too.

The Scout Frigate I really think shines with Admiral Ackbar, Enhanced Armaments, and Gunnery Team. I'm not sure about Redundant shields or not right now. A lot of it will depend on how games go. My game plan or goal with the Scout is to long range snipe and form a circle of death with 0 plans of getting into mid to close range engagements.

Another thing I see with this ship is it might not be a great idea to try to use both Torpedo and Scout in the same build. Since the Fleet Commander you use will vitally boost one ship it will provide little to no benefit to the other. Either way it will be interesting.

You still have to get and stay in black dice range. Demolisher can do it fine, but not any other ships. Issues of iniative and survivability definitely balance this out. Dodannas pride has a lot larger range band overall, which makes it easier to use and get points out of it.

This. Its still shoot-move for everybody (expect demolishers, but they rightfully receive a lot of hate for that..), so black-die-upgrades are the higher risk/higher reward upgrade. You need to activate with a valuable target inside range to make use of it, which requires a lot more preparation and maneouvering than with blue or red triggered upgrades. That is why I am not scared of MC30/raider/gladiator swarms with APTs as they will be a pain to maneouver and setup, and if you managed to get multiple shots off then you rightfully earned that victory.

is anyone else going to paint their MC30 pink?

Well I am now!

I don't work well just theorising, I am however, looking forward to playing around with the new ships and upgrades.

I will have money on the ship being flown off the board by all and sundry.

The overlap on the side arcs will produce som interesting fleets, the MC90 and this AF seem to work in a nice formation, there are a lot of interesting combinations here.

You wouldn't compare a Nebulon Escort Frigate and a Gladiator 1 on equal terms would you? They have totally different roles and threat profiles. But they're only 1 point different. Same with Assault Frigates and VSD's. They're only a few points off at their respective variants. But they do different things. The MC30 does NOT do the same things as a Gladiator. The faction identities are completely different, and you really can't compare ships cross-factionally.

Of course i would. It's because I find Demolisher superior to every Neb B and the way the VSD-1's front arc is the most powerful thing around that I chose imperials and run Demolisher, Warlord, and Rhymer-ball. Are you telling me you pick your list after first deciding to mot examine your options?

That's... what? That's not comparing ships. That's comparing FACTIONS. You prefer the Imperial faction because of their strong, straight forward firepower and play style. The Demolisher is superior in every way to you because of your particular playstyle, not because its objectively better than a Nebulon.

I'm telling you I don't pick my list after "first deciding to not examine my options" which doesn't even make any sense. I pick my list after deciding what kind of fleet I'd like to play first. Do I want hard aggression? Going with Imperials. Do i want a more passive approach, letting my opponent chase after me while i whittle him down over the course of a few turns? Probably going with Rebels then. I then pick my ships and upgrades based on that overall playstyle decision, because the two factions really don't play alike at all. This is generally true for just about every game that has different factions in it.

You wouldn't compare a Nebulon Escort Frigate and a Gladiator 1 on equal terms would you? They have totally different roles and threat profiles. But they're only 1 point different. Same with Assault Frigates and VSD's. They're only a few points off at their respective variants. But they do different things. The MC30 does NOT do the same things as a Gladiator. The faction identities are completely different, and you really can't compare ships cross-factionally.

Of course i would. It's because I find Demolisher superior to every Neb B and the way the VSD-1's front arc is the most powerful thing around that I chose imperials and run Demolisher, Warlord, and Rhymer-ball. Are you telling me you pick your list after first deciding to mot examine your options?

That's... what? That's not comparing ships. That's comparing FACTIONS. You prefer the Imperial faction because of their strong, straight forward firepower and play style. The Demolisher is superior in every way to you because of your particular playstyle, not because its objectively better than a Nebulon.

I'm telling you I don't pick my list after "first deciding to not examine my options" which doesn't even make any sense. I pick my list after deciding what kind of fleet I'd like to play first. Do I want hard aggression? Going with Imperials. Do i want a more passive approach, letting my opponent chase after me while i whittle him down over the course of a few turns? Probably going with Rebels then. I then pick my ships and upgrades based on that overall playstyle decision, because the two factions really don't play alike at all. This is generally true for just about every game that has different factions in it.

Roger.

Wait, the rebels have to be chased down? Huh. . . I did not know that. I flew at my Imperial opponents letting them move into my arcs. Then they got beat up by the B-Wings. In fact that happened 10 hours ago.

Huh. . . Who knew.

You wouldn't compare a Nebulon Escort Frigate and a Gladiator 1 on equal terms would you? They have totally different roles and threat profiles. But they're only 1 point different. Same with Assault Frigates and VSD's. They're only a few points off at their respective variants. But they do different things. The MC30 does NOT do the same things as a Gladiator. The faction identities are completely different, and you really can't compare ships cross-factionally.

Of course i would. It's because I find Demolisher superior to every Neb B and the way the VSD-1's front arc is the most powerful thing around that I chose imperials and run Demolisher, Warlord, and Rhymer-ball. Are you telling me you pick your list after first deciding to mot examine your options?

That's... what? That's not comparing ships. That's comparing FACTIONS. You prefer the Imperial faction because of their strong, straight forward firepower and play style. The Demolisher is superior in every way to you because of your particular playstyle, not because its objectively better than a Nebulon.

I'm telling you I don't pick my list after "first deciding to not examine my options" which doesn't even make any sense. I pick my list after deciding what kind of fleet I'd like to play first. Do I want hard aggression? Going with Imperials. Do i want a more passive approach, letting my opponent chase after me while i whittle him down over the course of a few turns? Probably going with Rebels then. I then pick my ships and upgrades based on that overall playstyle decision, because the two factions really don't play alike at all. This is generally true for just about every game that has different factions in it.

Choosing a faction because I compared the ships isn't comparing ships.

Roger.

That's not what I said, and now you're just being disingenuous. Goodbye and good riddance.

Buy you did. You explained the factions based off what their ships did in your eyes. You compared the ships in a broad sweep based on how you like to play them or think they should be played. How is that not comparing the ships?

Because cross factional comparison and ship comparison are one and the same. Comparing demolisher vs salvation isn't as straightforward as just speed or damage output. You have to account for overall fleet styles and admirals, plus how it fits into the rest of the fleet and what it can offer. The main issue most have with nebulons is it doesn't fit with the typical broadside doctrine of rebels, so its got a dubious role, in combination with its low survivability. The mc30 I think will have a much crisper and defined role in a rebel fleet based on its admiral that'll let it work as well as screed + demolisher. I'm definitely gonna be trying torpedo boat with ea and ackbar for a very scary side arc of doom.

It's worth noting that, at long range, a torpedo frigate actually puts out less dice from the side than a Nebulon. With EA and Ackbar, with a CF command, the Neb B can put out 5 red dice from it's side arc.

Granted, it doesn't have much ELSE going for it in that regard. No blue or black dice to speak off, only one shield to take return fire (and no redirect) but that's why you have B Wings to provide that close range firepower.

Of course, now you're talking about 100+ points for a Nebulon B and support squadrons...

Oh Nebulon, why are you so hard to include in a fleet?

Nebulon-B has 1 blue 1 red die and can't attack from its dominant front.

as above

the shrimpy has 2 red sides, the neb has 1 red and 1 blue. The neb's 3 red front does nothing with akbar

Nebs are, however, easy to include in a fleet because squadrons don't care about facing

problem is people are strangely indisposed towards them

as above

the shrimpy has 2 red sides, the neb has 1 red and 1 blue. The neb's 3 red front does nothing with akbar

Nebs are, however, easy to include in a fleet because squadrons don't care about facing

problem is people are strangely indisposed towards them

I think the Nebulon-B's need a support ship for them. Or a medium ship with a good front arc. . .