It's worth noting that, at long range, a torpedo frigate actually puts out less dice from the side than a Nebulon. With EA and Ackbar, with a CF command, the Neb B can put out 5 red dice from it's side arc.

Granted, it doesn't have much ELSE going for it in that regard. No blue or black dice to speak off, only one shield to take return fire (and no redirect) but that's why you have B Wings to provide that close range firepower.

Of course, now you're talking about 100+ points for a Nebulon B and support squadrons...

Oh Nebulon, why are you so hard to include in a fleet?

you lost me

as above

the shrimpy has 2 red sides, the neb has 1 red and 1 blue. The neb's 3 red front does nothing with akbar

Nebs are, however, easy to include in a fleet because squadrons don't care about facing

problem is people are strangely indisposed towards them

I think the Nebulon-B's need a support ship for them. Or a medium ship with a good front arc. . .

nah

Nebulon-Bs are the support

that's kinda the thing with them. Unless it's Salvation, they're not doing much of anything by themselves.

As long as you have some squadrons, the naked Escort Frigate is a nifty and dependable little ship that combines decent ranged firepower, some very nice mobility (at high speeds), and solid "burst" durability between its two braces. Given it's a little low on damage, relatively cheap, and packaged with some solid anti-squadron fire, they make decently bulky filler ships and a very good anchor. Sure, they don't seem durable in the face of VSDs and GSDs unloading fistfuls of black dice but, let's be honest here, nothing else does either.

Then there's Yavaris. She's support in that she needs B-wings to works, and then she turns them into probably the single highest damage output in the game on-par with double-arc ACM GSDs (seriously, two Bs get ISD levels of dice split across four attacks)

so really, the B-wings are the hammer that is supported by the Neb's anvil. Anything else you add to the list that isn't the Neb should, imo, also be a hammer.

This is why I fly Paragon with two Nebs I don't know if you'd count the threat of the double arc AFmk2 covering the Nebs as "support," but given it's a primary win condition I can't really classify it as such

Now, Shrimpy here? Hammer. Big ass hammer. Made of glass; still a hammer.

GSDs? Actually, I'd call them both (given that they're basically what happens when Nebs and B-wings make love and give birth to a new master-race of ships, that's not too hard to imagine). As much as I go on (and on...) about how badly uncontested B-wings devour these guys, they're still an incredible ship and rightly considered the biggest threat in Wave 1. They hit hard, they're (relatively) cheap, and they're also solidly built.

Sure, they don't seem durable in the face of Yavarised B-wings but, let's be honest here, nothing else does either...wait a tic

anyway, point is I actually find it much easier to find a home for Nebs than the counter shrimp. Apart from the shoe-in of Akbar's conga-line (Akbar is the hammer; the anvil is staying the **** away from imperials), they're expensive buggers to fit in. But, given my claim that Nebs are an anvil and Shrimps are a hammer...

I guess I have to practice with them. . . I have 5 (silly Intel Officer and XI7's)

+++ Death by the Neb (400pts) +++

+ Nebulon-B Frigate (358pts) +

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (77pts) [Engine Techs (8pts), •Raymus Antilles (7pts), •Yavaris (5pts)]

Nebulon-B Support Frigate (66pts) [Engine Techs (8pts), •Salvation (7pts)]

Nebulon-B Support Frigate (67pts) [Engine Techs (8pts), •Redemption (8pts)]

Nebulon-B Support Frigate (89pts) [Engine Techs (8pts), •General Rieekan (30pts)]

Nebulon-B Support Frigate (59pts) [Engine Techs (8pts)]

+ Squadrons (42pts) +

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

It's worth noting that, at long range, a torpedo frigate actually puts out less dice from the side than a Nebulon. With EA and Ackbar, with a CF command, the Neb B can put out 5 red dice from it's side arc.

Granted, it doesn't have much ELSE going for it in that regard. No blue or black dice to speak off, only one shield to take return fire (and no redirect) but that's why you have B Wings to provide that close range firepower.

Of course, now you're talking about 100+ points for a Nebulon B and support squadrons...

Oh Nebulon, why are you so hard to include in a fleet?

you lost me

A torpedo frigate has no red dice on the flanks. A Nebulon has one red dice. At long range, if you can stay at range three, the Nebulon is the better ship for broadsides. At medium to close range that flips dramatically as the Nebulon lacks any appreciable blue or black dice, has only one shield with no redirect.

However, the Nebulon has a good long range front arc. Taking Ackbar and the Expanded Armaments gives the Nebulon the ability, at range, to fire decent shots from it's front arc as it closes, then swivel around to present it's flank and fire some nasty broadsides as well. But it really has to stay at long range.

If, however, that Nebulon is the Yavaris then it can afford to get in close to medium range, because in addition to firing 4 red dice out of it's flank, it can also activate up to three squadrons who do double damage.

That's all I'm saying.

Quick question on Admonition

It says "when defending, in the spend defence tokens step, you may discard a defence token to cancel one attack dice"

Obviously this is meant to help you in that crucial turn you are setting up a dual arc torpedo run on an ISD.

Is this step sequential like the modify attack dice step? ie could I exhaust an evade, then discard the exhausted evade in the same volley?

I'd assume so

only thing is you can't pay a cost twice (i.e, discard an exhausted token and then admonition with it)

Quick question on Admonition

It says "when defending, in the spend defence tokens step, you may discard a defence token to cancel one attack dice"

Obviously this is meant to help you in that crucial turn you are setting up a dual arc torpedo run on an ISD.

Is this step sequential like the modify attack dice step? ie could I exhaust an evade, then discard the exhausted evade in the same volley?

It's worth noting that, at long range, a torpedo frigate actually puts out less dice from the side than a Nebulon. With EA and Ackbar, with a CF command, the Neb B can put out 5 red dice from it's side arc.

Granted, it doesn't have much ELSE going for it in that regard. No blue or black dice to speak off, only one shield to take return fire (and no redirect) but that's why you have B Wings to provide that close range firepower.

Of course, now you're talking about 100+ points for a Nebulon B and support squadrons...

Oh Nebulon, why are you so hard to include in a fleet?

you lost me

A torpedo frigate has no red dice on the flanks. A Nebulon has one red dice. At long range, if you can stay at range three, the Nebulon is the better ship for broadsides. At medium to close range that flips dramatically as the Nebulon lacks any appreciable blue or black dice, has only one shield with no redirect.

However, the Nebulon has a good long range front arc. Taking Ackbar and the Expanded Armaments gives the Nebulon the ability, at range, to fire decent shots from it's front arc as it closes, then swivel around to present it's flank and fire some nasty broadsides as well. But it really has to stay at long range.

If, however, that Nebulon is the Yavaris then it can afford to get in close to medium range, because in addition to firing 4 red dice out of it's flank, it can also activate up to three squadrons who do double damage.

That's all I'm saying.

o torpedo...... why are we comparing that to the neb..... compare the scout with the neb

It's worth noting that, at long range, a torpedo frigate actually puts out less dice from the side than a Nebulon. With EA and Ackbar, with a CF command, the Neb B can put out 5 red dice from it's side arc.

Granted, it doesn't have much ELSE going for it in that regard. No blue or black dice to speak off, only one shield to take return fire (and no redirect) but that's why you have B Wings to provide that close range firepower.

Of course, now you're talking about 100+ points for a Nebulon B and support squadrons...

Oh Nebulon, why are you so hard to include in a fleet?

you lost me

A torpedo frigate has no red dice on the flanks. A Nebulon has one red dice. At long range, if you can stay at range three, the Nebulon is the better ship for broadsides. At medium to close range that flips dramatically as the Nebulon lacks any appreciable blue or black dice, has only one shield with no redirect.

However, the Nebulon has a good long range front arc. Taking Ackbar and the Expanded Armaments gives the Nebulon the ability, at range, to fire decent shots from it's front arc as it closes, then swivel around to present it's flank and fire some nasty broadsides as well. But it really has to stay at long range.

If, however, that Nebulon is the Yavaris then it can afford to get in close to medium range, because in addition to firing 4 red dice out of it's flank, it can also activate up to three squadrons who do double damage.

That's all I'm saying.

Just a reminder,NebB's have a Blue and Red out of the side arc.

On to theory crafting, and I like Fickle's Hammer and Anvil analogy. I'm still not sold on Enhanced Armaments for the NebB, but I'm liking the Reroute Turbolaser upgrade in the Kung Pao Shrimp pack. So many good Turbolaser upgrades, hard to choose just one, but the Reroute with the single Red and Blue at Medium range either gives three or two & an accuracy, add in Ackbar and you're already tossing Blue and 3x Red without any upgrade or command dial or 3x Red at Long range. Add in a Squadron command sending a pair of Bombers on top.

I'm just thinking that for under 70 points, we could have a Support Yavaris with one of those wonderful Turbolasers and Ackbar, we could be tossing out as much (or more) firepower from the sides as the front, and all from a support ship to your big ship(s).

It's worth noting that, at long range, a torpedo frigate actually puts out less dice from the side than a Nebulon. With EA and Ackbar, with a CF command, the Neb B can put out 5 red dice from it's side arc.

Granted, it doesn't have much ELSE going for it in that regard. No blue or black dice to speak off, only one shield to take return fire (and no redirect) but that's why you have B Wings to provide that close range firepower.

Of course, now you're talking about 100+ points for a Nebulon B and support squadrons...

Oh Nebulon, why are you so hard to include in a fleet?

Others have touched on this, but for a support ship, Nebulons can be valuable additions to a fleet. In addition to anti-squadron dice (Neb-B escort offers two blues, tied for the best currently available for Rebels and at a far cheaper price than the AFII-A), at least two Nebulon titles (Yavaris and Redemption) are pure support titles. Redemption makes every ship in your fleet more resilient. An MC-80 within distance 5 of Redemption has five engineering, and a token is worth half of this, rounded up (for a total of eight engineering points (5+2.5, rounded to 8), or four shields worth of engineering). Add this to redundant shields and advanced projectors, and your MC-80 can consistently regenerate five shields per turn--or one shield and two hull damage--to keep up its defenses. This is far and away the best engineering value in the game (an AFII can also regenerate five shields per turn if it is within range 5 of Redemption and takes redundant shields; if it takes advanced projectors instead, it has to settle for just four shields per turn... poor baby...). Even the token itself is immensely valuable, as a single engineering token can remove a face-up damage card. For eight points, this seems well-worth the investment, especially as we transition to 400 points.

I view Yavaris as a support title mostly because a Neb escort can only activate up to three squadrons (squadron command dial + token), and doesn't sport the upgrade slots you would want for a primary carrier (expanded hanger bays, flight controllers, others to come, I'm sure), but it does allow you to single out two or three key squadrons to get an extra oomph that will push your overall squadron output to a higher level. Want to get the edge on a swarm of TIE fighters? Double-tap two or three X-wings and you're walking out of the engagement with at least two kills (and as many as six). Need to soften up a Vic in a hurry? Double-tapping Y-wings and even X-wings can make a huge difference (especially if you roll any double-hits), and double-tapping B-wings melts face.

Even Salvation offers support, if you think of it as supplying supplemental fire to your bigger guns (AFIIs, MC-30s). It's not the most reliable source of damage, but when you land crits, it's a big boost to your overall firepower.

Because cross factional comparison and ship comparison are one and the same. Comparing demolisher vs salvation isn't as straightforward as just speed or damage output. You have to account for overall fleet styles and admirals, plus how it fits into the rest of the fleet and what it can offer. The main issue most have with nebulons is it doesn't fit with the typical broadside doctrine of rebels, so its got a dubious role, in combination with its low survivability. The mc30 I think will have a much crisper and defined role in a rebel fleet based on its admiral that'll let it work as well as screed + demolisher. I'm definitely gonna be trying torpedo boat with ea and ackbar for a very scary side arc of doom.

PS, if you scrap EA you can get a fifth ship. Wave two is looking rather silly

I view Yavaris as a support title mostly because a Neb escort can only activate up to three squadrons (squadron command dial + token), and doesn't sport the upgrade slots you would want for a primary carrier (expanded hanger bays, flight controllers, others to come, I'm sure), but it does allow you to single out two or three key squadrons to get an extra oomph that will push your overall squadron output to a higher level. Want to get the edge on a swarm of TIE fighters? Double-tap two or three X-wings and you're walking out of the engagement with at least two kills (and as many as six). Need to soften up a Vic in a hurry? Double-tapping Y-wings and even X-wings can make a huge difference (especially if you roll any double-hits), and double-tapping B-wings melts face.

I have been playing around with Yvaris / Raymus Antilles as an X-wing carrier. I use Wedge Antilles and 2 X-wings, and then they can either chew through enemy bombers or do some light bombing of their own. Even though they usually suck at bombing, having the ability to potentially double-tap for 2 black and 4 red dice with bomber actually makes them able to at least contribute after all the TIEs have been hosed out of the sky.

Because cross factional comparison and ship comparison are one and the same. Comparing demolisher vs salvation isn't as straightforward as just speed or damage output. You have to account for overall fleet styles and admirals, plus how it fits into the rest of the fleet and what it can offer. The main issue most have with nebulons is it doesn't fit with the typical broadside doctrine of rebels, so its got a dubious role, in combination with its low survivability. The mc30 I think will have a much crisper and defined role in a rebel fleet based on its admiral that'll let it work as well as screed + demolisher. I'm definitely gonna be trying torpedo boat with ea and ackbar for a very scary side arc of doom.

Just because it isn't straight forward doesn't mean it can't be done. And again, it is literally impossible to make a list and not compare ships unless they're chosen completely at random.

PS, if you scrap EA you can get a fifth ship. Wave two is looking rather silly

I know it can be done, but just stating its front arc is better is doing a disservice to comparing the ships. You simply have to look at both the individual stats and abilities, as well as the overall picture is simply what I was saying. The mc30 fills a pretty nice niche I feel with riekken, dodanna, Mon mothma or even ackbar giving really nifty bonuses or combo potential. APT plus dodanna is a strictly better version of dodannas pride if you can maintain black die range shots. Mon mothma and foresight will be incredibly frustrating on the approach, and can even mess up gladiators at black die range with some luck. Riekken lets you be just as suicidal as you'd want and ackbar gives you a solid picket ship to run with your mc80 tank.

That said I think this ship is going to be something you want to build for/around, meaning I see this taken in at least pairs to get the most out of it. 2 mc30s, an mc80, and a corvette (with dodannas pride or Leia) with a fighter screen gives you a good variety of objective options and firepower.

Aside from forming the train, what other formations are possible for mc30 to assist its mates in broadsides? The last ship is always vulnerable to attack from the rear including the shrimp, but current obstruction rules make ships flying alongside inefficient.

Just proxied an MC30, and I am going to have a blast blowing up all the time. MC30 Scout frigate, Ordinance Experts, Rapid Reload, Turbolaser Reroute, Foresight = 96 points (I did have countermeasures, but it never mattered once - this thing breaks like an egg. It will die)

It's a lot of points in a very fragile basket, but it is FUN. In a four ship list with Ackbar against an ISD and 2 gladiators, I was able to activate the MC30 last to move right between the gladiators, activate first next turn. 4 red, 4 black broadsides, being able to reroll blacks and use evades to manipulate my red dice. 2 dead gladiators in one activation. Sure, it's a situation that will come up like once every 20 games (if that) but it was amazing to behold.

Of course now the MC30 gets focuse fired immediately. Which I'm ok with, as it leaves my assault frigates free to circle the battlefield, peppering the enemy with 6 die broadsides.

Edit: stupid autocorrect

I have a proxy made up. Did not have the movement stats prior though. . .