I'm a new enough player that basic maneuvering is down, and I understand some synergies.

I am decent at maneuvering swarms, and I know the Empire ship list well.

I do not play competitively, and I don't plan to. But there are some in the community, and I would ideally like to be able to be competitive, even if I lose.

I was never able to figure out how to compliment a TIE Bomber, but I had some fun with 5-ship lists that rather sucked on the competitive.

I see in the Bomber/Punisher a hard to manuever ship that cannot afford to lose its action, and cannot count on evading anything.

So how do you protect it?

And how do you build it to be the right balance of cost/potency/survivability?

And what do you put with it?

Here is my list theory:

Deathrain (blah blah weapons/torpedoes are up for discussion)

1x Proton bomb

1x Ion bomb

Advanced Sensors

Howlrunner

Squad Leader

Experimental Interface

Black Squadron Pilot

Wingman

Academy Pilot

I take bombs that you do not need an action to use.

I took advanced sensors to not lose my action.

I took Howlrunner to give the Punisher an extra action (in case it wasn't in range for TL during its movement)

I took Black Squadron Wingman to help Howlrunner

I'm completely open on ordinance (bombs included) and open to discussion on mods.

I hope the accompaniment ships aren't a bad choice. I think I know how to fly those and use their synergies.

Thanks for any help in the discussion.

If you want to use Deathrain and bombs, you should probably try and fit Extra Munitions on there. It will double your bomb loadout so you can have twice the carnage.

Unfortunately, Deathrain will fall pretty fast to TLT swarms. If you're just playing casual this may not be an issue, but still wanted to give you a heads up about that.

The Punisher has a few notable things to it.

Deathrain is maximized by Bombs, an already potent upgrade slot receiving additional benefit is enough to run even a sub-par ship, which the Punisher may or may not be.

I too am struggling with the Interdictor Punisher, but more along the lines of "Why should I take this when the TIE Bomber also exists?"

The Bomber is 5 points less expensive, a superior dial, Barrel-Roll, and an additional agility die (with no shields).

The Punisher has a System Slot, an additional Bomb Slot, Boost, and +3 Shields (with less agility).

¹⁶/₆is greater than ²¹/₉, but is behind 2 agility rather than 1, so gets greater use of defensive Focuses and is likelier to mitigate damage in-the-raw as well.

Boost vs Barrel-Roll: Boost will be used more often due to the inferior dial, but Barrel-Roll is the more powerful action of the two, classically. However, the Punisher can equip Autothrusters... which isn't as gamebreaking as on Soontir Fel but adds a fair bit of survivability here.

Assuming you had a good enough dial to avoid the zone in-arc and at R1-2. Which you generally don't.

I don't like the ship, in all honesty. I want to. I really want to, and Deathrain is amazing. But I cannot see the Scimitar as ever being a worse option than the Cutlass.

The Punisher has a few notable things to it.

Deathrain is maximized by Bombs, an already potent upgrade slot receiving additional benefit is enough to run even a sub-par ship, which the Punisher may or may not be.

I too am struggling with the Interdictor Punisher, but more along the lines of "Why should I take this when the TIE Bomber also exists?"

The Bomber is 5 points less expensive, a superior dial, Barrel-Roll, and an additional agility die (with no shields).

The Punisher has a System Slot, an additional Bomb Slot, Boost, and +3 Shields (with less agility).

¹⁶/₆is greater than ²¹/₉, but is behind 2 agility rather than 1, so gets greater use of defensive Focuses and is likelier to mitigate damage in-the-raw as well.

Boost vs Barrel-Roll: Boost will be used more often due to the inferior dial, but Barrel-Roll is the more powerful action of the two, classically. However, the Punisher can equip Autothrusters... which isn't as gamebreaking as on Soontir Fel but adds a fair bit of survivability here.

Assuming you had a good enough dial to avoid the zone in-arc and at R1-2. Which you generally don't.

I don't like the ship, in all honesty. I want to. I really want to, and Deathrain is amazing. But I cannot see the Scimitar as ever being a worse option than the Cutlass.

FCS and cluster missiles make redline pretty scary at close range. Every Shot generates 2 target locks, one for firing missiles and one for modifying the shots. with extra munitions you can use it four times on one ship.

Deathrain is basically a conner net dispenser extraordinaire. Mines are many times more reliable than bombs because they can overlap before the enemy activates and, in the event of multiple overlaps, you can decide which of the ships overlapped takes the net (which is great if you find yourself overlapping your ties a bunch)

Redline takes cluster missiles and plasma torpedoes and makes them actually worthwhile (he's a bit of a glasscannon, though. He punches hard but really can't protect himself apart from thrusters). Redline is all about controlling range, because he's a complete **** stick if he doesn't have a lock on his target and an unholy terror if he does, and because he melts to concentrated fire.

both make good flankers and benefit immensely from a mini-swarm. Deathrain ropes up dodgy aces so your generics can tear them down piece-meal, while Redline needs to have blockers to live all that long, and to keep targets in place for him to ordnance to death.

use the system slot (Either scopes or sensors for deathrain to enable maximum bombage, and fire control system for Redline), use the extra munitions that come with it (For a very good reason), load up on some two dispensables and go have fun

So if I take Deathrain, should I minimize his cost by minimize missiles/torpedoes? That's where I REALLY struggle. 9 Hit points isn't a lot when you can't evade anything and you get no elite pilot talent.

If I take Redline, do I skip bombs?

What do you guys think of trying to get the Punisher an extra action per round via Squad Leader?

Is there another option to Howlrunner/Squad Leader/Experimental Interface that serves the same or similar purpose?

I don't have a K-Wing yet, so I don't have Conner Nets, so I don't really understand conner nets (Ionization, I guess). The Arc in which they drop doesn't impress me on a Punisher (not that I know to whits of a thing). Why take bombs that require you to use your one Action? That I don't understand at all. Actions are precious.

How many points should I cap out a Punisher, in terms of Upgrades?

What's the difference in effect between Advanced Sensors and Enhanced Scopes?

(These same kinds of questions apply to me with bombers; they are both ships that I don't understand the intended role, and especially advantages.)

personally, yeah skip ordnance on Deathrain and bombs on Redline. They're specialists

as for mines on deathrain

1. actions are precious and all, but with 1 agility a defensive focus doesn't help much and with 2 red dice an offensive focus doesn't help much either

2. deathrain gets a free barrel-roll after dropping bombs or mines

3. mines detonate immediately upon overlap with an enemy ship. Bombs go off before combat, meaning a ship like soontir or han can just easily dodge out of the way. Combined with Deathrain's ability to bomb out the front, it's incredibly difficult to avoid conner nets from him.

mines also only hit one ship (if overlapping multiple ships, you get to choose which to affect)

bombs hurt everyone within range 1, and that's including deathrain or any friendlies

4. Conner nets is guaranteed damage and robs the enemy's action (skips action step) and ionizes them. It is basically a death sentence for action dependent ships and it lets you arrange your swarm around them at your leisure, because they won't be able to boost/roll away

basically, if you drop a proton bomb and are lucky enough to have soontir not dodge it and are then lucky enough to pull a useful crit, then maybe it might've been worth the 5 points. For one less, though, conner nets will serve him up to your squad on a silver platter.

Very helpful explanation. Thank you very much.

K-Wing is next on my list (it's so sexy I touch myself, sorry, TMI)

Accompaniment:

As before, a TIE swarm is something I'm comfortable with, but how does that Howlrunner config look for its points?

And since I'm trying to keep this subject alive and learn as much as I can while I have its attention:

I have recently learned how to configure the 24-point "Doom-Shuttle" and I really want to learn to play with it.

Is it something that can compliment this list, or do you think, as a relative newb (with very little large-ship handling experience) should I stick with something more cost-effective.

In general, I don't know how many points to put into certain ships, like the Defender, the Decimator, and now the Punisher. A noob like me can kit out one of those with no idea where to stop. (Thus why the Doom-Shuttle is so interesting to me - how novel a concept?)

If I have a 'mini-swarm' (let's call it 3, maybe 4 TIE pilots as points allow), and I have a, what would you call it, the "egg in one basket" ship, where do you decide to stop on points in the sense of losing one ship that turns out to lose you the game because it was worth too many points for what it achieved ('achieved' being a broad and varied term that we shouldn't get into here)?

TIE Punisher: · "Redline" (27)

Extra Munitions (2)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Concussion Missiles (4)

Ion Bombs (2)

Fire Control System (2)

Lambda-Class Shuttle: Omicron Group Pilot (21)

· Darth Vader (3)

TIE Interceptor: · Soontir Fel (27)

Push The Limit (3)

Autothrusters (2)

Royal Guard TIE (0)

Stealth Device (3)

I played this list the other night against a Han Solo and B-wing and I lost. Han and the B-wing had iniciative which made really hard to properly use Soontir (not because it is, but because I had never plyed him without iniciative) in facto Sontir got killed after round 3 or 4 wthout even make an attack. Also, dropping the ion bomb was really hard since my rival moved his ships after Redline and it was hard to calculate it. Finally it was Lambda against B-Wing and I lost but the B-wing had only 1 hull left.

I liked the list but you need to learn to fly Soontir without iniciative and drop the bombs.

Cheers!

The Bomber is 5 points less expensive, a superior dial, Barrel-Roll, and an additional agility die (with no shields).

The Punisher has a System Slot, an additional Bomb Slot, Boost, and +3 Shields (with less agility).

I don't like the ship, in all honesty. I want to. I really want to, and Deathrain is amazing. But I cannot see the Scimitar as ever being a worse option than the Cutlass.

I'm not a bomber expert, since I've never used them, but one thing that I think you are forgetting in this comparison is action economy. In order to be effective, TIE bombers basically need something to improve their ability to get target locks or focus or something so that their ordnance hits and hurts reliably. TIE punishers do not need any outside help thanks to the system slot.

Cutlass w/ FCS & Cluster missiles = 27 pts. Its a self-contained unit that, while expensive for its firepower, is pretty good value for its durability. If you have 2 points to spare, throw on extra munitions and its firepower improves noticeably.

Compared to Scimitar or even Gamma, its about 5 points more (assuming similar ordnance on the bomber), but you don't need to run a Jendon or Jonus or a high PS squad leader bomber caddy to get good value out of the Punisher's clusters.

If you wanted to run a pair of those Cutlasses, say with extra munitions at 29 pts each, that still leaves you 42 points to round out the list with whatever suits your fancy. I think that's puts the generic punisher in a pretty good place, although I'm talking theoretical here, since I haven't actually tried it.

But what does one gain in advantage from spending 25-30 points on a Punisher with only 1 ordinance weapon? Why not fly a more defensible ship that will likely come with a better wheel, agility, albeit fewer hit points. Even if you have Extra Munitions it's still two shots, and if you're only taking 1 ordinance weapon, you're leaving a lot to two attack dice at various ranges and for many turns.

And as for the action efficiency with a Fire Control System, I view that as having two problems that need solving still.

1) It doesn't help the Punisher fire ordinance in its Alpha Strike if you were not in range to TL after you moved the Punisher.

2) If the Punisher kills the ship it intended to get a TL on, then again you've lost the Punisher's ability to set up a TL ordinance shot the next turn.

Thus to me it does indeed need a squad leader monkey as a safety measure. (At least to me, since I can run a decent Howlrunner swarm effectively).

But what does one gain in advantage from spending 25-30 points on a Punisher with only 1 ordinance weapon? Why not fly a more defensible ship that will likely come with a better wheel, agility, albeit fewer hit points. Even if you have Extra Munitions it's still two shots, and if you're only taking 1 ordinance weapon, you're leaving a lot to two attack dice at various ranges and for many turns.

And as for the action efficiency with a Fire Control System, I view that as having two problems that need solving still.

1) It doesn't help the Punisher fire ordinance in its Alpha Strike if you were not in range to TL after you moved the Punisher.

2) If the Punisher kills the ship it intended to get a TL on, then again you've lost the Punisher's ability to set up a TL ordinance shot the next turn.

Thus to me it does indeed need a squad leader monkey as a safety measure. (At least to me, since I can run a decent Howlrunner swarm effectively).

The generic pilot Punisher is not intended to be an alpha striker. Its got 9 hitpoints, so its tougher than a b-wing. Your ideal engagement will be at range 3 where you can fire your primary weapon to gain the free target lock. Enemy shooting at you should not cause too much damage because R3 and you should be trying to stay out of range of some of the enemy's ships. Next turn, you will have TL + focus, and when you fire the cluster missiles, you get the TL back after the first volley, and can use it to modify the 2nd volley. That allows for 2 powerful 3 dice attacks at once. If you have extra munitions, you can make this potent attack twice per game per ship. Even after the the missiles are gone, all of your attacks will be made with target lock, so even your two dice can hit decently (3 at range 1). For 29 pts, that is not bad at all.

What other imperial options are better in the 25 - 30 pt range? It really depends on what you are looking to get out of a ship. For example, a Royal Guard Interceptor is pretty good value for 27 pts (push the limit + autothrusters) or even 30 (adding hull), but in comparison to the punisher, it is a glass cannon and takes careful piloting to use effectively (does not suit everyone's tastes). You also have the TIE advanced which adds some decent durability and some interesting unique pilots, but ultimately, it does not have as good firepower as the Punisher. You pick the TIE advanced over the Punisher because you want a hard to kill ship and don't care that its damage potential is lower (in the 25 - 30 pt range anyway, the 30+ named pilots can hit much harder). I think it really depends on what you are looking to get out of the ship. The Punisher has comparable value to these other options, so I think its a good ship. YMMV of course.

Edit: oh yeah, what to run with it. I have tried Deathrain + 5 academies. I have also tried deathrain alongside some royal guard interceptors and even a pair of TIE defenders. I agree upthread that to use him well, just keep him cheap with a conner net and advanced sensors (enhanced scopes is not as good, imho). You can throw extra munis and proximity mines on him, but ultimately, he is best dropping action-dependent mines on high value targets to f*ck them up so the rest of your ships can destroy them easily.

Redline I think works best with a pair of Cutlasses equipped as I detailed above. Redline w/ FCS, clusters x 2 & extra munitions = 39 pts. You still have 3 pts to either give them all the TIE mk2 modification, or throw hull upgrade on Redline. Autothrusters is simply not worth it. Having only 1 green die does not allow consistent results like it does on a 3 agility ship.

But what does one gain in advantage from spending 25-30 points on a Punisher with only 1 ordinance weapon? Why not fly a more defensible ship that will likely come with a better wheel, agility, albeit fewer hit points. Even if you have Extra Munitions it's still two shots, and if you're only taking 1 ordinance weapon, you're leaving a lot to two attack dice at various ranges and for many turns.

And as for the action efficiency with a Fire Control System, I view that as having two problems that need solving still.

1) It doesn't help the Punisher fire ordinance in its Alpha Strike if you were not in range to TL after you moved the Punisher.

2) If the Punisher kills the ship it intended to get a TL on, then again you've lost the Punisher's ability to set up a TL ordinance shot the next turn.

Thus to me it does indeed need a squad leader monkey as a safety measure. (At least to me, since I can run a decent Howlrunner swarm effectively).

The generic pilot Punisher is not intended to be an alpha striker. Its got 9 hitpoints, so its tougher than a b-wing. Your ideal engagement will be at range 3 where you can fire your primary weapon to gain the free target lock. Enemy shooting at you should not cause too much damage because R3 and you should be trying to stay out of range of some of the enemy's ships. Next turn, you will have TL + focus, and when you fire the cluster missiles, you get the TL back after the first volley, and can use it to modify the 2nd volley. That allows for 2 powerful 3 dice attacks at once. If you have extra munitions, you can make this potent attack twice per game per ship. Even after the the missiles are gone, all of your attacks will be made with target lock, so even your two dice can hit decently (3 at range 1). For 29 pts, that is not bad at all.

What other imperial options are better in the 25 - 30 pt range? It really depends on what you are looking to get out of a ship. For example, a Royal Guard Interceptor is pretty good value for 27 pts (push the limit + autothrusters) or even 30 (adding hull), but in comparison to the punisher, it is a glass cannon and takes careful piloting to use effectively (does not suit everyone's tastes). You also have the TIE advanced which adds some decent durability and some interesting unique pilots, but ultimately, it does not have as good firepower as the Punisher. You pick the TIE advanced over the Punisher because you want a hard to kill ship and don't care that its damage potential is lower (in the 25 - 30 pt range anyway, the 30+ named pilots can hit much harder). I think it really depends on what you are looking to get out of the ship. The Punisher has comparable value to these other options, so I think its a good ship. YMMV of course.

Edit: oh yeah, what to run with it. I have tried Deathrain + 5 academies. I have also tried deathrain alongside some royal guard interceptors and even a pair of TIE defenders. I agree upthread that to use him well, just keep him cheap with a conner net and advanced sensors (enhanced scopes is not as good, imho). You can throw extra munis and proximity mines on him, but ultimately, he is best dropping action-dependent mines on high value targets to f*ck them up so the rest of your ships can destroy them easily.

Redline I think works best with a pair of Cutlasses equipped as I detailed above. Redline w/ FCS, clusters x 2 & extra munitions = 39 pts. You still have 3 pts to either give them all the TIE mk2 modification, or throw hull upgrade on Redline. Autothrusters is simply not worth it. Having only 1 green die does not allow consistent results like it does on a 3 agility ship.

Very interesting way to look at generic Punishers which I had been dismissing.

I've flown Deathrain about 5 times and it's hard not to kit him out to ~40 points. And for a ship that is only as durable as a B-wing, that makes Deathrain a priority target. This of course drastically limits the time you have to unload your bombs.

29 points for a generic with 2 Cluster Missiles and FCS does sound quite reasonable.

Very many thanks to Blade Merc - that is some really helpful context.

I have a related question on the system upgrade "Sensor Jammer."

I understand the need for autothrusters on interceptors and why they're not useful on a 1-evade ship.

I've not heard much discussion on the Sensor Jammer, which leads me to believe it's not very useful for it's cost.

My thought on it is that it simply forces the shooter to retain a focus when its target is equipped with a sensor jammer, thus obviating it. Any feedback on that?

I have found that putting an accuracy corrector on them is not a terrible investment. Guaranteed 2 hits, especially if you have them kitted out to be bombers so they are going to be attacking no matter what.

I have found that putting an accuracy corrector on them is not a terrible investment. Guaranteed 2 hits, especially if you have them kitted out to be bombers so they are going to be attacking no matter what.

If you didn't want to use them as ordnance carriers, then yeah, it is useful. But keep in mind the TIE advanced generic is also 21 points and with accuracy corrector has so many advantages in that role vs the Punisher (better dial, evade action access, and 3 pts cheaper because it gets accuracy corrector for free).

Very many thanks to Blade Merc - that is some really helpful context.

I have a related question on the system upgrade "Sensor Jammer."

I understand the need for autothrusters on interceptors and why they're not useful on a 1-evade ship.

I've not heard much discussion on the Sensor Jammer, which leads me to believe it's not very useful for it's cost.

My thought on it is that it simply forces the shooter to retain a focus when its target is equipped with a sensor jammer, thus obviating it. Any feedback on that?

Sensor Jammer is a great card, but it depends on what you do with it. Compared to shield upgrade, its equal points and tends to stop 1 point of damage (sometimes more, assuming enemy ships will be firing without focus on occasion due to either k-turning or taking actions other than focus for whatever reason). What makes Sensor Jammer really shine though is using elements in your list to maximize its potential. Basically, if you can deny your opponent actions, sensor jammer makes a ship extremely resilient because it applies to all attacks. Some common ways to get that added value: PS 1 blocker(s) like a TIE academy pilot or two; stress inducers (flechette torpedo/cannon, tactician, rebel captive, etc) and Carnor Jax (his ability denies use of focus/evade tokens at range 1).

Okay, tomorrow is the "open X-Wing night" at my FLGS.

I have a Rexler Brath & Howlrunner w/ 2-Academy Pilot swarm that I am good with. I could play it and see what my opponent shows up with (and I avoid mirror matches just cuz).

And after all of this discussion, I have come up with this list featuring Redline, Howlrunner (Squad Leader version) and two TIE/FOs; one is PS1, the other is PS4 (Black Squadron Equivalent).

First, my ideology:

Redline for his missile capability and higher PS. A Howlrunner swarm is probably the first thing I learned to fly and use. I go to it a lot because it rounds out any experiment with an arm on my list that I know I can wield relatively effectively. TIE FOs can block, and use the S-Loop.

Now the list:

Redline 27

Extra Munitions 2

Flechette Torpedoes 2

Cluster Missiles 4

Fire Control System 2

Twin Ion Engine Mk II (1 pt)

Proton bombs (yeah, I'm sure you'll talk me out of these...)

Howlrunner 18

Squad Leader 2

Experimental Interface 23

Epsilon Pilot (PS1) 15

Omega Squadron Pilot (PS4) 17

Wingman 2

Okay, I already know the Proton Bombs are a bad idea given what I've learned in this discussion.

From the meta stand point (I'm not even sure what 'meta' means, but wtf):

I committed to 5 point bombs and forgot about it. As I rounded out the list (w/ the bombs) I found myself with 3 points extra, so I added the Twin Ion Mk II and the Flechette torpedoes. Easier stress removal is helpful and cheap in the Mk II engine. Range 3 Flechettes might be useful, and they are very inexpensive.

I guess if we assume the bomb is the primary bad idea I have somewhere between 5 and 8 points to redesign the basic outlay of upgrades and/or pilot (pilot skills).

A couple of things to add cap/summarize. As stated qbove, deathrain really really likes action bombs better, I will occasionally take seismic on recline if I end up with the points. In the final list you have I'd consider cutting the proton bomb and some of the other upgrades on howl runner to squeeze another tie fighter in there. Howlrunner gets better the more ships you have around her and just two is under utilizing her. It makes target priority really easy for your foe.

Keep the fletche torpedo on redline. Every game I've played with him, if I didn't have ordinance from 1-3 my opponents were able to control range to neutralize him.

The punisher is a fun ship and you're not alone in trying to optimize it.

I agree with Catachinninja----freeing up points for an additional TIE is ultimately your best bet.

I like your Redline build though. The flechette torps will be 100% useful even against ships that don't care about stress because at worst, its 2 3 die attacks that you wouldn't otherwise be able to make, and at best it will really ruin arc-dodgers and mess up aggressors.

Proton bombs are scary, but can be difficult to use. They are most effective at high PS, and while redline's is not bad, there are still a number of ships in the 8+ range that can easily avoid it. Try it out though and see how it goes, but be careful not to drop it on your other TIEs!

Alright, I leave in about an hour for game night.

Here is the final version I intend to fly, based on your feedback and my comfort level with my abilities.

Also, if you hadn't realized, I confused deathrain with redline. I'm using the missile boat, 2x Target Lock of Redline, no bombs.

Redline -37 Total points

Extra Munitions (2)

Flechette Torpedoes (2)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Fire Control System (2)

4-Ship Howlrunner swarm, upgraded to improve Howlrunner's survivability against focus fire/whiff dice.

Howlrunner 22 total points

Determination (1)

Hull Upgrade (3)

Black Squadron Pilot 15 total points

Draw Their Fire (1)

2x Obisidan Squadron Pilots (as I understand, Init 3 will beat a cheap Y-wing TLT).

100 Total Points

In my testing with Deathrain ive realised that his ability is far better to use with Mines. Just for the ability to drop a Conner Net on top of an opponent you get behind, or gets behind you etc. Bombs themselves are still more effort than their wirth to pull off in my opinion.

Deathrain is great for Board control. Even if they dont do masses of Damage, dropping a set of Cluster Mines, directly in the path of a large ship (like Han) especially before it moves can stack up considerable damage. The fact you get 2 for 1 mitigates their cost/effectiveness shortcoming and Conner Nets are an auto include. Try not to go overboard and he can be best used to disrupt enemy plans/formations while the rest of your squad does the actual damage.

Finally got to try the Punisher yesterday and I decided to go with Redline. The list looked like this:

Redline+Fire Control System+Extra Munitions+Plasma Torpedoes+Cluster Missiles+Twin Ion Engine MkII

Maarek Stele+Push the Limit+TIE/X1 title+Advanced Targeting Computer+Twin Ion Engine MkII

Omicron Group Pilot+Emperor Palpatine

While not the most competitive build, I found the synergy between the three of them really interesting, they especially eat B-Wings for breakfast.

First round of confrontation, you aim for a range 2-3 combat. Both Maarek and Redline are PS7 so you can always choose who shoot first and last. The plan though is to shoot first with Redline and a Plasma Torpedo to drain the shield of your opponent then to shoot with Maarek the same target with no shield anymore and fish for the deadliest crit. The Emperor is there to help defensively or make sure that one of those hits land. Against target without shield, you have the Cluster Missiles.

Very fun to fly and, for my first game with it, made the Punisher shine; those missiles and torpedoes were deadly.

I have these 2 lists for punisher, trying to maximize Deathrain with mines/bombs.

List A: