Yea, the Raider upgraded one or two of its laser Turrets (cuz, blue dice can represent Laser Turrets) to a Quad Lasers.

Seems legit to me.

It seemed to me we were discussing unclear gameplay mechanics and rules wording, but have it your way.

Yea, the Raider upgraded one or two of its laser Turrets (cuz, blue dice can represent Laser Turrets) to a Quad Lasers.

Seems legit to me.

It seemed to me we were discussing unclear gameplay mechanics and rules wording, but have it your way.

Unclear mechanic? What is unclear about the Counter mechanic? It is self explanatory. It actually tells you what happens and what to do. It does not say "when a squadron is attacked by a non-commercial attack" so what's the issue?

New gameplay situation where ship gains counter. Ship without blue anti-squad dice. Rule originally written for squadrons which happen to only have blue anti-squad dice. People questioning this = unclear mechanic. See Paragon black dice and range issue for reference.

People can read the counter rule just as well as you do. People might even have the same interpretation as you do about said rule. However, people question rules when they feel they're unclear. No amount of disregarding their point and blindly hammering your opinion of how said rule applies is gonna change that.

Edit: I've since re-read the card and my Rhymer comment above is moot, it's a range 1 effect. Doesn't make the situation any clearer anyway.

Yes it does. The keyword (in which this is the first case of a ship gaining a keyword) has a ability.

If there was a card that all your squadrons Counter 1 in range 1 (could be a Rouge hero maybe or Imperial with their squadron synergy) then TIE bombers suddenly get a blue die because that is what counter does. It gives a black die because you upgraded a Turret or 2 to quad lasers.

It's like you don't even read what people write.

It's like you don't even read what people write.

I have given you a fluff and rules reason why this works as it does. No clarification needed but feel free to email FFG and post what they say. If I am wrong then I am wrong and I will move on. If I am right I won't say I told you so and I will move on.

This makes perfect sense to me because it is how many of the upgrade cards work. They break one concept of the rules. Not several

The rules for counter are very clear. Not sure why all the consternation...

The rules for counter are very clear. Not sure why all the consternation...

From what I gather, it is because the Raider 1 has no blue dice for anti-squadron and they are equating that counter plays off the models innate anti-squadron capabilities. . .

Which it doesn't...

The counter rule is very clearly written.

Which it doesn't...

The counter rule is very clearly written.

Their counter was that the ship equipped with this upgrade now has a squadron keyword and thus changes how the keyword works.

Yup, reading what isn't there is often the issue with rules misunderstandings.

If the Quad Lasers mentioned changing the dice used I'd agree. All they do is grant a ship a specific squadron special rule. That's it.

The counter rule was written at a time when squadrons had mixes AS attacks (Vader) so it's obvious the rule is very specific about being a blue dice.

Lyraeus is completely spot-on.

"Counter X" -> "attack with X amount of blue dice".

I'm not sure how any other reading makes sense.

As for the Rhymer issue... he and his gang still can't get shot at by the regular black-black anti-squadron battery. Only by the single blue counter die. And I'm not sure how that's any more magical than TIE Fighters being able to attack at range 3.

EDIT: By the way, in case you were wondering - Cluster Bombs also trigger (and roll blue dice) regardless of the colour of the ship's anti-squadron dice.

New situation doesnt throw old rules out the window. If that were the case then a ton of rules in a lot of games would have loopholes beyond loopholes.

Theres several situations where you end up using dice when you normally cant, such as "Add a black die to the pool" lets you dodge the range limit because the range limit only affects your initial pool, not added dice.

Its far more simpler to just blanket a rule rather than give it a bazillion specific situational rules...like 40k tends to do sometimes...and this game's rules are suppose to be fairly simple to understand.

People can read the counter rule just as well as you do. People might even have the same interpretation as you do about said rule. However, people question rules when they feel they're unclear.

People question the rules when they go against their opinion of how the rules should work. That doesn't make the rules unclear.

In this case the rules are very clear, no ambiguity at all. How ever some peopel feel the rules should be changed.

Every one is entiteld to his/her opinion ofcource and can pester FFG to change any rules they feel are not quit right. But saying the rules are unclear on this is just plain wrong.

Also, (for the person who commented about Rhymer before) the counter from the Quad Laser Turrets won't wreck your Rhymerball, as it says "when defending at distance 1" So if you are using Rhymer to bomb at medium range you are safe from the counter.

So a raider with only black defense dice magically gets a blue die for counter? cool. Not so cool for that rhymerball who specifically tried to play on his range advantage to stay out of close range.

This needs a clarification, the rule was probably written when the only things that could have counter had blue anti-squadron armament to begin with.

The ruleset isn't infaillible, and it is bound to evolve as new ships and cards with new effects show up. It will do so faster when people point out inconsistencies.

This was the one I was meaning, - it says "When defending at distance 1" So regardless of the fact its a blue dice, it does not allow you to counter at medium range.

If there was a card that all your squadrons Counter 1 in range 1 (could be a Rouge hero maybe or Imperial with their squadron synergy) then TIE bombers suddenly get a blue die because that is what counter does.

This is exactly what Dengar does. Nice one Lyraeus!

If there was a card that all your squadrons Counter 1 in range 1 (could be a Rouge hero maybe or Imperial with their squadron synergy) then TIE bombers suddenly get a blue die because that is what counter does.

This is exactly what Dengar does. Nice one Lyraeus!

Lyraeus, you don't help matters in a rules thread when you make a bunch of posts about fluff and background - all of those are irrelevant and muddy the waters way more than help.

Ruleswise you're correct: Ship upgrade = gets counter 1, counter 1 says use blue dice. Done.

Lyraeus, you don't help matters in a rules thread when you make a bunch of posts about fluff and background - all of those are irrelevant and muddy the waters way more than help.

Ruleswise you're correct: Ship upgrade = gets counter 1, counter 1 says use blue dice. Done.

I stated the answer but people wanted a reason in fluff that fit. So I gave that as well.

Does Counter have to be "blue" dice?

According to the FAQ the Counter ability should indicate the dice used. "A counter attack functions just like a normal attack except that the dice gathered for the attack are indicated by the squadron's Counter value instead of its anti-squadron armament."

All the squadrons with Counter only have blue dice in their armamnet. When they are explaining the keyword as "2 blue dice" on the squadrons with Counter is that defining Counter as always being blue dice or just worded specifically to the case of the specific squadron?

Or is Counter 2 meant to indicate two dice from the anti-squadron dice? The anit-squadron armament on a TIE Interceptor is 4 Blue. So Counter 1, 2, 3 or 4 for it would only be blue dice.

So should the upgrade card be more specific about the dice used or is Counter 1 more properly read as any one die from the anti-squadron value since this can go one ships with different colored dice in anti-squadron armament? Wouldn't it be better as Counter 1 Blue or Counter 1 Black or something?

The rules reference guide says blue dice. DId not look that up. I still get where the confusion comes from as Counter 1 just seems a clean way to say 1 die from anti-squadron.

Does Counter have to be "blue" dice?

According to the FAQ the Counter ability should indicate the dice used. "A counter attack functions just like a normal attack except that the dice gathered for the attack are indicated by the squadron's Counter value instead of its anti-squadron armament."

All the squadrons with Counter only have blue dice in their armamnet. When they are explaining the keyword as "2 blue dice" on the squadrons with Counter is that defining Counter as always being blue dice or just worded specifically to the case of the specific squadron?

Or is Counter 2 meant to indicate two dice from the anti-squadron dice? The anit-squadron armament on a TIE Interceptor is 4 Blue. So Counter 1, 2, 3 or 4 for it would only be blue dice.

So should the upgrade card be more specific about the dice used or is Counter 1 more properly read as any one die from the anti-squadron value since this can go one ships with different colored dice in anti-squadron armament? Wouldn't it be better as Counter 1 Blue or Counter 1 Black or something?

The rules reference guide says blue dice. DId not look that up. I still get where the confusion comes from as Counter 1 just seems a clean way to say 1 die from anti-squadron.

If they wanted it to do that, they could have put in the italicized text "from your anti-squadron value" or something like that. Instead they stated just blue dice.

"Counter X: After a squadron performs a non-counter
attack against you, you may attack that squadron with
an anti-squadron armament of blue dice equal to X,
even if you are destroyed."

I really don't see how any other interpretation is possible. It says to use X blue dice , not to use "X dice out of your anti-squadron armament".

"Counter X: After a squadron performs a non-counter

attack against you, you may attack that squadron with

an anti-squadron armament of blue dice equal to X,

even if you are destroyed."

I really don't see how any other interpretation is possible. It says to use X blue dice , not to use "X dice out of your anti-squadron armament".

I hadn't realized it was spelled out in the RRG. I see the confusion but agree that the Quad Laser upgrade gives 1 Blue die to counter-attack a squadron regardless of the anit-squadron armament of the ship it is on.

"Counter X: After a squadron performs a non-counter

attack against you, you may attack that squadron with

an anti-squadron armament of blue dice equal to X,

even if you are destroyed."

I really don't see how any other interpretation is possible. It says to use X blue dice , not to use "X dice out of your anti-squadron armament".