They only hit on a rolled hit and ignore rolled crits.

This often leads to minimum effects.

Crits should count as crits (or at least as hit) - so there is at least a chance of 25% for 2 hits for a single mine.

Without the crits its only about 14% ... and yeah ... thats low.

Same chance to get 2 evades with 2 green dice....

And if all mines are hit by a single ship - which is a rare event - you may deal 2-3 hits.

Just wanted to say. Is this worth 4 points?

What are your experiences?

Is there something I missed?

Just making sure - you know mines aren't attacks, and you don't get to defend against them?

Anyhow, yeah they are individually pretty underwhelming. If you make some poor sap hit all three, though, the average is 2.25 damage, instead of the prox-mine's 1.5 - and the maximum is a terrifying 6.

Depends how you lay them. With both conners and clusters you ideally want to cross the T of your targets approach, so you get maximim contact with all templates. With the conner it means you have the widest coverage. With clusters you can drop 3 in a linear formation along the path of travel, so that one ship moves over all three and gets the damage of all templates. Obviously makes lining up the mine harder. If you spread the clusters wide rather than deep you increase chances of some hits but decrease chances of all hits. 6 red dice is going to hurt anything.

Just making sure - you know mines aren't attacks, and you don't get to defend against them?

Anyhow, yeah they are individually pretty underwhelming. If you make some poor sap hit all three, though, the average is 2.25 damage, instead of the prox-mine's 1.5 - and the maximum is a terrifying 6.

He's saying that since critical results don't hit, they're just as unreliable as a defense dice.

yup

3 hits out of 8 faces = same odds as 3 evades out of 8 faces = "underwhelming" isn't strong enough a word

connner nets, freaking always

What I said was "individually underwhelming". 2.25 average damage that can't be evaded in any way is not bad.

We were talking about this the other night; seems like making crits count as regular hits would make them a bit more viable.

I am not sure about them yet, but they seem like a pretty good area denial tool. Have to set up your obstacles for maximum effectiveness.

I really need to buy wave 7 since I can't really proxy the clusters and nets like I can the ships themselves.

During last battle Deathrain and Redline forced Han Solo to roll 12 dice from Cluster Mines. Out of that came 2 dmg. So yea, they are not that great.

Keep in mind: they only cost an action to deploy. An action should not do more damage than an outright attack.

Laying that 3 templates is looking good at the table ... but thats about it.

If rolled crits would even ignore shields ... or cause stress ... or something like that ... that would be cool.

Or if the player needed to reroll focus results ...

Or on a focus result you can't use focus tokens this round...

Or if you hit all 3 Mines, you are dealt a faceup damage card...

So many possibilities...

I'm missing somethin special about it ...

Cluster mines are ................. boring ..... I'm sorry, Alex.

I think Cluster Mines are remarkably weak. 2 CMs and are equivalent to a Prox Mine without the threat of a critical and it's going to be extremely finicky work to get all of your Cluster Mines to trigger. I still run Prox Mines on Deathrain and find them sufficient and they don't force you to position strangely to drop them perfectly.

compared to proximity mines yes cluster mines are way underpowered.

The only thing is that they don't all go away as soon as someone hits them. but a small token is not as good as a proxy mine token, also the cluster mines cost one point more when they do less than proxy.

What should have been done is convert all crits to hits. Right now the proxy mine has more chance of potential damage than all 3 cluster mines.

Right now cluster mines has a max potential damage output of 6 but each dice has a 3/8 probability of making one of those 6 hits. 6*(3/6)

Proxy mines had a max potential damage of 6 (3 direct hits) but now it has been bumped up to 8. (2 major explosions both flipping a direct hit and the last being a direct hit) still that is a probability of 3*(1/8*(crazy luck)) but the main thing is to make 3 damage that is 50% chance of a hit or crit per dice. Proxy dice have better results and average than cluster dice. A single cluster mine probably has an average of less than 1 but all three combined to be about over 2 hits where as a proxy mine has an average around 2 hits and you only have to hit the single template not all three.

I'm sure a math winger can crunch the numbers on 1/2/3 cluster mine tokens compared to a single proxy mine token.

Laying that 3 templates is looking good at the table ... but thats about it.

****, that's probably the biggest disappointment of all

cluster mines look amazing on the table, but they pack all the power of a whoopie-cushion

shoulda been one damage a mine

Keep in mind: they only cost an action to deploy. An action should not do more damage than an outright attack.

That and the fact they are 4 points to even have. Paying 4 points for a "bomb" that takes an action AND can black its rolls just seems bad. Especially when compared to things like Seismic Charge, Ion or even Proton Bombs which are a simple reveal drop and guaranteed effect.

Really thinking about it, could all ordance having at least 1 guaranteed effect, whether that be damage or somthing like Ion or a stress bomb, make ordance really worth its points?

Maybe it should have been the other way around:

For each mine you suffer a crit, but you may roll a green die for each mine.

For the price I'll usually just pick up a Conner or proxy. It should have worked on crits.

Another one:

The individual mines stick to the model and explode next time you get hit by an attack ...

Meaning the attacker gets +2 dice for each mine on the defender, only for this attack.

IMO Same problem as ordnance, you should pay for unlimmited ammo. With a limit of one token at the table at once maybe?

I don't know. But paying the same cost as a cannon/turret just for a 1 time attack that requires an action and a harder maneuver to achieve than just shooting.... seems like not fair.

I would like to see the crits count as a hit. But thats what makes it fun, you never know whats gonna come up.

IMO Same problem as ordnance, you should pay for unlimmited ammo. With a limit of one token at the table at once maybe?

I don't know. But paying the same cost as a cannon/turret just for a 1 time attack that requires an action and a harder maneuver to achieve than just shooting.... seems like not fair.

While I dont agree with the unlimited ammo part I do think paying as much as a cannon for a 1 off attack is bad. As I said with my earlier post could possibly giving ordnance a guaranteed effect, either their damage or on top of rolling dice, make ordnance a more viable option, even if still a one shot.

IMO mines and bombs are as effective as a deturrent as much as anything else. IF they do some damage along the way that's just gravy. From my point of view it's hard to argue with the possibilty of dealing damage out of the combat phase. I think it is worth a few squad points and a little forethought.

I will say it does suck when you drop a mine or bomb just right and manage to deal no damage. On the other hand I had a well placed cluster mine trio strip Dash of his shields, that was a great moment in my X-Wing history. I guess with anything in this game YMMV, but I'm liking new bombs/mines so far.

mines are incredibly useful even if they never blow up

which is why conner nets are just absolute ******* gravy. No one wants to run over one of those things regardless of how much damage they're risking, simply because it's all guaranteed and lops said guarantee in with some exceptionally powerful control elements

mines that blow up and potentially do nothing are just bleh

I dunno, cluster mines are pretty effective on a 16 point bomber using them to block up a side lane. Unless opponents rutinely fly through cluster mines instead of asteroids.

The damage that clusters can do is indeed rather underwhelming. However I'm not sure that's what we always should be aiming for. To me it seems that clusters are perhaps best utilised to create choke points and block gaps between asteroids. Yes, proximities and nets can do that as well, but the way clusters are deployed and the area they cover should make them slightly better at the job. Mind you, I haven't tried clusters yet so it's just theory at the moment.