I've had some thoughts bouncing around my head for a while about this game and I think it might be time to throw them out. This thread might also be called "THE 4-6 SHIP META". It's about how I think the game might go and how I find myself responding to a lot of threads.

The two ship meta is no longer going to be as prominent as it was. It will still be there and people will still win with it, but it wont' be the meta to beat for every game.

TLT's will be a thing...at least for a while. They will be a list to beat and you will have to consider fighting one.

High PS arc dodgers like Soontir Fel will also be a thing.

I think there will also be a lot of "things" that people will try out in the next few months. I think the meta is in a state of flux and I love it. So many things are viable.

I've seen a number of people post lists that have some cool ideas. It often puts them at about 3 or 4 ships in their list. Two that come to mind deals with Bossk and 2 TLT Y-wings and another deals with Kavil, TLT Y-wing, and 2 Kihraxz Fighters. I found myself thinking that I would probably drop one of the generics on each of those lists and go with 2 Z-95's. There was another list involving 3 Imperials and I kept thinking one of those could be dropped for a few generic Tie Fighters and it would be much improved.

Why is this? Well, for one, TLT's don't like more targets as much. While the generics have few hits, you can't focus them down easily enough. They might also move within R1 while you are firing on the big heavy in your list. If you are shooting at Bossk and you suddenly have these two Z-95's with TL firing at R1 of your Y-wings, you aren't going to like it.

Target Priority. When you see a list, you want to fire at the most dangerous thing. While you are doing that, the little crummy ships are getting in range and really doing damage. If you fire at the little ships, then the big nasty ships are bashing you while you do it. This is an area where I think Scyks do well. They don't like the attention, but they are very maneuverable and have TL. If ignored, they can get into R1 and stay within R1 if you play it smart. Even just Z's left unchecked can hurt. Tie Fighters at short range are good, especially when not getting shot at.

Bumpage is a thing. Having the ability to force your opponent to do something it normally wouldn't want to do or bump into one of your generics is a big thing in this game. Using your cheap generics as obstacles has been in the game since Wave 1. They can also screen your flanks and make it harder for one of those wily ships to come up on your flanks. No S-loop for Brobot if you hit your Z's. Or harder for Soontir to come in easy peasy if the way is blocked.

There is more to it than that, though. Overall strategies has some ships wanting to sit back and fire at you. This is much easier if you have the generics either blocking or mixing things up with your ships. If your opponent just hauls it towards whatever is your sniper, your generics will have a field day.

I've played a lot of mini-swarms and I like the style. I don't necessarily think that what I'm talking about is a mini-swarm. Not just one ace with as many generics as you can muster. I think a nice balance to things is good. What about an ace and maybe 1-2 more mid guys. Then, throw in the generics. It makes target priority hard and the extra stuff from your mid levels can perhaps boost your generics. Or mess with your opponent so much that your generics can slip in.

Maybe it's just how I play? I just feel like with how things are going that a list with 4-6 ships in it will probably do best. There are so many archetypes out there that you can't really build a list that handles all of them in the way that you could in the old meta. There were only 3 builds or so. I think I see so many options out there that you don't know what you will face. Having an "all comers" list that has some tricks seems like it will be the way to go. If you put too many of your eggs in one (or a few) baskets, then you have the possibility of folding if you meet a hard counter. What will Soontir or a Phantom say vs. Torkil with a bunch of Scum ships, including Mini-Swarms and TLT's?

I feel like a well balanced list played by a good player will have more tools to defeat "all eggs in few basket" lists.

man, "bumpage" is perhaps the single most under-appreciated thing on the forums (which makes intelligence agent the least appreciated upgrade in the game). It's why I could never believe anyone whining about why PWTs were somehow necessary to beat arc-dodgers, just one blocker and they're ******

to help generate enthusiasm, Zeta Ace w/PTL + 3 Obsidian Squadrons = 60 points of mini-swarm greatness

both Redline and Whisper hit those 40 points quite easily, and soontir/vader will let you get another ace Tie in there

I love it! With that Imp list, what do you shoot at with your TLT's? Go for whatever big ace you have and the rest of the list will eat you before too long. That's a lot of damage output combined with 3 agility that can help beat TLT's. Oh, not stop all damage from TLT's, but enough to slow them down.

I think the "high-mid-low" mix has merit. The lows provide hitting power, the high provides ace capabilities, and the mid flexes in role depending on what you're fighting. The challenge is making a modestly priced mid that gives you enough points for a meaningful mid, not just a miniswarm.

There is a lot that also depends on playing well, too. For one, you have to really know your list to play it well vs. many tough opponents. I was able to do this with my Xizor mini-swarm and it took a lot of people by surprise. If you have an All Comers list and make sure to know it inside and out, you have a much better chance against other lists.

Here's a list that I just came up with that I like:

Drea Renthal (Y-wing) w/ Proton Torp, EM, and Unhinged Astromech

Graz the Hunter w/ Homing Missile and Glitterstim

3 x Black Sun Soldier Z-95's

The idea is for Drea to flank a bit. Or....depending on the list, come up fast. Graz is there to take the attention. The Z's are cheap, but don't get hit by Predator. They can also move after TLT lists.

So....Graz formation moves up and he tries to take the attention. Gets within range and hopefully gets a TL off on someone. Eats his Glitterstim. Everyone fires at him that round. He hopefully gets an 3 green dice. All eyes turn to Evade. Fires off Homing Missile. Gets to re-roll blanks, but eyeballs are hits.

Drea gets to go at PS 7. Not the best, but an attempt to get TL on someone. Then, she slow rolls as she fires her two torpedoes. After that, she's just a bad jouster.

Certainly not the best list in the world, but a list that could be very competitive with a competent player that practices with it.

Maybe drop Unhinged and one Z to Binayre to get a Blaster Turret.

EDIT: I think the TLT meta might shift some people away from the high PS aces. I'm thinking Soontir Fel here. We might see a little less of Soontir. Maybe.

I think the "high-mid-low" mix has merit. The lows provide hitting power, the high provides ace capabilities, and the mid flexes in role roll depending on what you're fighting. The challenge is making a modestly priced mid that gives you enough points for a meaningful mid, not just a miniswarm.

ah-ha!

hint hint not so subtle hint

Can I admit frustration at the lack of feedback on this idea? With all the various negative threads flying around I thought that maybe a thread with (what I thought) an interesting idea might be good. I did get a couple of people's posts from guys I respect, but I was hoping for more.

Is the idea dumb? Disagree? I'd really like some input.

It requires less effort to adapt than to whine

Subbing in a couple Z's or ties into a 3-4 ship list is a great idea in this meta. I unexpectedly faced a 5-ship rebel swarm(ZZ,StressB, TLT Y, TLT hwk) last week and it wiped me 100-0. They're very effective.

That's great to hear, especially as it turns out I can't go gaming this week. It's all theory until I can get ships on the table.

I think all of us who have had ships on the table recently are kind of at a loss for ideas. Or at least a loss of focus. I feel like I can take any ship that isn't a bomber or imperial firespray and make a seriously competitive list. It is a very fun time to play, but it's hard to talk about it. Too diverse.

Another point on picking up a pair of Z's or ties: If the first TLT shot kills them the second shot was wasted. So you kind of always feel like a 1-hull tie is a waste of your TLT when an ace is around. But the tie is what ends up killing you if you don't.

I don't think we will see less Soontir though. He will have some problems against TLT that is true. Or rather he is a risky pick. If they get to shoot all 8 shots on him even Soontir might take damage. But he is one of the best counters to turrets at the same time. Its easy to get to range 1 with at least half the TLTs and there he definitely can handle himself. 4 TLT shots are probably not enough to get through all his tokens.

Just my 2 cents on that.

I tend to go 3 Aces, or 2 plus a blocker, or 2 plus Palpy at the moment. Works out pretty well so far.

What also works is 2 ships of no more than 76 points. It's the sweet spot where you can fit in 2 Zs or 2 Academies, a fcs B-Wing, a Green Squadron with all kinds of fun, a naked T-70. You get the idea!

SJ Whisper/Echo + Fel and shuttle is one of my favorites right now.

I think all of us who have had ships on the table recently are kind of at a loss for ideas. Or at least a loss of focus. I feel like I can take any ship that isn't a bomber or imperial firespray and make a seriously competitive list. It is a very fun time to play, but it's hard to talk about it. Too diverse.

I absolutely agree with everything you said, except about the Tie Bomber. I really think they are viable these days. I did very well in my Store Champ with a Jonus Brothers list, but you don't need Jonus now.

4 x Scimitar Bomber w/ EM, Homing Missile, Seismic Charge

I don't think we will see less Soontir though. He will have some problems against TLT that is true. Or rather he is a risky pick. If they get to shoot all 8 shots on him even Soontir might take damage. But he is one of the best counters to turrets at the same time. Its easy to get to range 1 with at least half the TLTs and there he definitely can handle himself. 4 TLT shots are probably not enough to get through all his tokens.

Just my 2 cents on that.

I tend to go 3 Aces, or 2 plus a blocker, or 2 plus Palpy at the moment. Works out pretty well so far.

What also works is 2 ships of no more than 76 points. It's the sweet spot where you can fit in 2 Zs or 2 Academies, a fcs B-Wing, a Green Squadron with all kinds of fun, a naked T-70. You get the idea!

I agree that Soontir isn't going away. He's too beloved to ever really go away. I do think we will have less Soontir in a competitive environment due to TLT's. It's my hope, anyways.

Even with that, I do think that a.....4-6 ship list (well balanced list?)......could handle Soontir.

Well Soontir vs 4-6 non turret ships is the same it always was. Block him and get shots the same turn or bust!

I think you'll see a lot of lists like the old Whisper + 4 - 5 TIES. Some strong high PS/above quad TLT PS 2 Ace and a wad of cheap filler like naked M-3A's or TIEs/TIE FO's or Z's or A-wings.

The Xizor + 5 Z's seems pretty good. Same with a Guri variant. They can get the Sensor Jammer/Autothrusters/3+ green die combo going.

Super Poe and a wad of Z's or 4 A-Wings.

I actually kind of miss the old Whisper and 4 TIEs. That's how much Fat Turretwing ruined the game, that I miss the pre-nerf Phantom haha. Post nerf it actually seems like a fun list to play against and fly.

The mini-swarm has always been out there and I expect to see it. I'm wondering about something different than that, though. What about an Ace, a mid level (or two), and then some scrubs? I'm thinking the right combo of ships could give a lot of synergy and help deal with a lot of different opponents out there. You can have some HWK-290's that have TLT's and give some sort of bonus to the group. Things like that.

the problem with the mid-level is that it's hard to find effective pilots

I think the FOs are perfect for it (because, obviously, Zeta is the indisputable ****) but it's really hard to find others apart from some of the cool vanilla Ties (Ala Dark Curse and Nightbeast)

for rebels? well, greenie really deserves more respect than he gets. Roark is getting a sot of renascence ala TLTs

You can always make 2 Z's into a TLT Y or HWK or 2 TIEs into an AC Storm Squadron.

Arvel? Maybe? No, not Arvel. T_T

Gemmer is cool too.

You can always make 2 Z's into a TLT Y or HWK or 2 TIEs into an AC Storm Squadron.

Arvel? Maybe? No, not Arvel. T_T

Gemmer is cool too.

...but when I see people's lists, I keep thinking you can turn a TLT Y-wing into 2 Z-95's! I guess if there is already one TLT in the list, it is better to get 2 Z's. Maybe it's just me. I dunno.

@Fickle: I dunno....the meta is changing and there are a lot of pilots that have been dismissed that are viable. I don't think it's that hard these days.

I think "mid level" could mean a lot of things, and it might be useful to clarify.

1.) It could be a capable, low PS utility ship (Warden with bombs)

2.) It could be a mid PS jouster (Dagger with a System of your preference).

3.) It could be a mid PS Arc Dodger (PTL Saber).

4.) It could be a high PS light ship (Mauer Mithel, Airen Cracken).

I think whatever it is, it probably has some minor trick that it can leverage against low PS pilots, but has good raw power for its points compared to Aces so it can shape their lanes of flight.

PS 4-5 jousters in the 25-30 point range with some other trick seem like they might be a good general purpose mid. They can help getting PS kills on raw efficiency jousters, but don't use a big percentage of their points on a PS bid that won't help vs an Ace.

Maybe another way to look at this squad format is to look at it in terms of initiative bid. The "high" element almost always gets use out of its PS bid. The "low" element doesn't make a bid (or makes a tiny one like Obsidians). The mid makes a 2-3 point bid, but it's only on one ship, so it's not like you spend 8 points on 4 Daggers over Blues and then run into Soontir Fel.

Can I admit frustration at the lack of feedback on this idea? With all the various negative threads flying around I thought that maybe a thread with (what I thought) an interesting idea might be good. I did get a couple of people's posts from guys I respect, but I was hoping for more.

Is the idea dumb? Disagree? I'd really like some input.

I feel your pain on this. I posted a similar thread a few months back about Aces, Support, and Grunts that just instantly died. The premise was all about making an all-comers list, but this was in July and everybody was high on the 2 ship success in regionals and the first few nationals. I think that the future of this game is going to be a balanced 4-6 ship list that can handle a fattie, or a list like triple squints, or now quad TLT Y's (or HWKs).

In July I started flying Vader (pre raider fix), a Sigma with FCS, Int Agent, and Stygium, and Carnor Jax. I then switched out my 36 point Vader for 3 Academy Pilots once the raider came out, because I guess I am an X-Wing hipster and Vader was just too popular. I loved the idea behind the list, but when I went to a store tournament I got last place

I still want to practice with the list, but I moved to China and now I don't have anyone to play X-Wing with regularly and I don't like Vassal.

Back on topic though, I couldn't agree more about the current status of the game. I love listbuilding, rolling dice and doing theory, and I think that 2-3 generics, 1 support ship (Ion, Stress, Action Sharing, etc.) and a 30-40 point ace for the end-game has a lot of promise for the future of the game. I used to play warhammer fantasy, and I always tried to build armies that had a tool for every army I could face. It wasn't a net-list, but I won about 75% of my games with it and it was really satisfying. I want to find that with X-Wing.

I will post some list ideas in a little bit, now I am going to go play on squad builder!

I think "mid level" could mean a lot of things, and it might be useful to clarify.

1.) It could be a capable, low PS utility ship (Warden with bombs)

2.) It could be a mid PS jouster (Dagger with a System of your preference).

3.) It could be a mid PS Arc Dodger (PTL Saber).

4.) It could be a high PS light ship (Mauer Mithel, Airen Cracken).

I think whatever it is, it probably has some minor trick that it can leverage against low PS pilots, but has good raw power for its points compared to Aces so it can shape their lanes of flight.

PS 4-5 jousters in the 25-30 point range with some other trick seem like they might be a good general purpose mid. They can help getting PS kills on raw efficiency jousters, but don't use a big percentage of their points on a PS bid that won't help vs an Ace.

Maybe another way to look at this squad format is to look at it in terms of initiative bid. The "high" element almost always gets use out of its PS bid. The "low" element doesn't make a bid (or makes a tiny one like Obsidians). The mid makes a 2-3 point bid, but it's only on one ship, so it's not like you spend 8 points on 4 Daggers over Blues and then run into Soontir Fel.

I think all the different types of ships you mentioned could work, depending on the type of list you have. There are so many options, but so many of them sees me wanting to add in or trade out enough to get some cheap generics thrown into the list.

I never subscribed into the 2-ship meta and always loved to fly generics, so I don't really see a difference as far as when I'm building a team.

I pretty much always follow the same recipe:

-Choose my star pilot, who I want to build around. Usually an Ace or a pilot that I don't see often hit the table and want to try.

-Choose his wingman. Who will complement my Ace pilot and make him shine, or take the attention off of him to let him do his thing.

-Fill up with generics to gain some body to block, increase firepower and be a secondary threat that my opponent can't ignore.

Of course, there will sometimes be exception like when I feel like flying a swarm or going full elite. But that's my general formula when I build a team. I also keep the current meta in mind and make sure that even if the team is not optimal, he has the tools to fight against the big meta build.

I don't see the advantage of trying to check every box in a 'type of ship' thing for a list. I think if you have something good, use it as hard as you can. This is why I run a Bosskinator(Slaver with Bossk/Gunner/Tactician/Dampeners) and 5 PS1 Z-95s.