Hello, I was reading the book and can't found anything similar to overbleed in RT. Had I missed something? or there isn't

Idaho said:

Ahhh... I see that I'm not alone when it comes to confusion around the psyker material. I have posted a question about this in the Rules Questions area. Check it out...

One of the major issues with over bleed is in many cases it led to psykers being very over power if the psyker rolled well. The trade off was inorder to get over bleed you had to roll lots of dice, and risk horrible things happening.

In RT over bleed is replaced by bonuses due to psi score. The thing to remember is this is your effective psi score. Depending on the amount of risk you want to take this is psi/2, psi, or psi + something. Thus psi powers don't have that wild range of effect like in DH due to overbleed.

Personally as a GM this makes for a better game. You don't have to worry about a psyker either completely wiping out the bad guys, or being eaten by the warp. Like wise I don't have to worry (as much) about psykers being too scared to use their powers, or being killed by their own party due to a fatalistic psyker player. It means that a psyker can actually use his powers without comstantly being afriad that he'll die. Which let's face it the powers are why a player is a psyker. While at the same time being able to throw caution to the wind and open a can of whupass every so often...

thank you all

Psy powers are no longer "beat a threshold",but instead a modified skill check. Thus, overbleed is "replaced" with degrees of success.

I actually liked the old system. It showed how powerful, but also how dangerous, Psykers are. I ran it with no trouble.

You've obvious never had a pyrokinetic or a telekinetic in your group. It becomes the psyker and his little helpers until the warp eats him.

Yes, I did. Several in fact. All I had to do was enforce the perils of the warp. All it took was the Psyker ruining all of their food and water while they were all alone once before the rest of the group convinced him to ease off.

Then of course there was the time he looked like a deamon for a round. All of the Aribiters who were with them that did not run off assumed he had become possessed. He burned a fate point to be knocked out and arrested rather than executed.

He was nearly lynched on a Hive World for the same reason; even after saving the underhive community for a pack of marauding mutants.

Then of course there was also the time he rose into the air in a nimbus of light when the group was trying to sneak into a cultist's hideout.

All I ever needed to do was enforce the results of the rolls the Psyker himself made and all of a sudden his autopistol was his best friend.

Perils is highly erratic means of balancing a psyker. 1st you need the psyker's player to actually fear perils. It's not uncommon for a PC to decide that his psyker is doomed and just go wild any way. 2nd a simple firestorm with a 4 psi does between 9 and 55 which is completely out of line with damage in the rest of the game. 3rd no where in the fluff does it seem that a psyker a stands a 1 in 10 chance causing weirdness with even their weakest power level. Or that he stands a 1 in 40 chance of getting a result like the perils table again for the lightest power use. At 4 psi it's roughly 40% chance of oddness, and 1 in 10 of perils. Lastly the player is frustrated as he was playing the psyker to get to use his power, but instead either can't use them or have he has entire group yelling at him when he does.

Of course it is highly erratic, that itself is very in line with the fluff.

1st: If your player is playing a Psyker in that way, then they must have a very lienent Inquisitor to last more than a mission or two.

2ed: there is a 40% chance a Psyker using all four dice will get a Psychic Phenomena, and a 10% chance they will roll on the Perals of the Warp, compare this to their average damage roll of 21, and all of a sudden Fire Storm, while still quite powerful, is not nearly so scary. I agree that it is very powerful, but it is also very dangerous to the user.

3ed: I don't know what fluff you are reading, because the fluff I read states that weirdness happens nearly every time Psykers use their powers. Thick frost forming on every surface, random nosebleeds, electrical malfunctions, headaches, strange lights and figures, voices from nowhere, serverters blowing up and deamon possession are all over the place in the fluff for 40k.

It is very true that in Dark Heresy a level 4 Psy has a nearly 50/50 shot if he uses all of his power, but who ever told him to use all of it? Take a round, use Psyscience and only roll one or two dice.

Lastly: Being a Psyker is dangerous. The core book states that nearly every time it mentions them, and the rules back that statement up. If even after all these warnings your player is still unhappy about the repercussions of playing a Psyker, and not being able to call down the fury of the gods every time their character blinks, then they really should be playing another career. Or another game that is more high adventure like Rifts or Savage Worlds.

I've yet to play with the Rogue Trader psyker rules, but I'll definitely be porting over the Fettered/Unfettered/Push mechanic. It bolts on very easily to the power dice mechanic and gives a psyker a great deal more control over his powers. A skilled and experienced psyker really shouldn't be triggering warp phenomena every 1 in 10 times when manifesting lesser powers. On the flip side it allows them to go all out and cause all merry hell to break loose.

Dabat said:

Nah, blaming the player for being unhappy with the PotW system isn't fair - the system is just poor game design and no, it isn't reflected in the fluff. If the characters in the fluff had to work with the DH PotW tables they would never, ever use their powers unless someone put a gun to their head. The system is just stupid.

This isn't about a psyker being able to call down the fury of the gods, it's about the character being able to perform even the most basic of psychic tasks without being eaten by a daemon. The system as-is makes no sense - a sanctioned psyker using any power at all is too great a threat to the Imperium to be allowed to let live. I would find those tables to be acceptable for unsanctioned psykers, the kind that the Inquisition hunts down and captures/kills due to the danger they represent.

macd21 said:

You and I are reading very different fluff then. Last I checked, the few times Sanctioned Psykers are shown (with the exception of Astropaths and Navigators), they only use their powers on rare occasions, and often with a gun to their head in the form of their bodyguard. In Armor Of Contempt they were accompanied by a bodyguard at all times who would not hesitate to kill them, in Only In Death Sanctioned Psykers were locked in cages under 24 hour guard with nearly any un-ordered use of their power worthy of death, in Blind half a dozen members of an Astropath choir were executed because they had nightmares for God's sake, and they were executed because those nightmares could of been the first sign on possession.

When Sabertooth was making the DH system, they had two options for psychic powers. They could make them relatively repercussion free like was done in the Ravenor and Cain novels, or they could make them dark, hard to use and hideously dangerous. They chose the latter path to fit in with the darker theme of the Calixis sector. That was my impression I got when I first read DH when it first arrived in my FLGS, and that is still my impression today. If you don't like the system, then don't use it, make your own. I certainly don't have a gun to your head. But myself and my group found it fit the theme and the setting perfectly and never once made a single modification to it.

Dabat said:

Yeah, we are.

Eisenhorn invokes his powers regularly without provoking phenomena. I don't recall Patience Kys ever causing phenomena. Ravenor practically lives and breaths psychic power and things only frost over when he really cuts loose. Torris Vaun (Faith and Fire) never causes phenomena despite bring a rogue psyker who cuts loose at will. The astropaths in Blind only have a problem because there are so many of them, living in such close quarters that any instability in any one of them endangers the entire facility.

It should be noted though, even in the Ravenor and Eisenhorn novels, that psykers are dangerous... not only to others, but potentially themselves.

I think DH did a good job of introducing psykers in a way that we could all relate to. After reading the rules more thoroughly in Rogue Trader, I do agree that they more closely resemble what is read in the novels, therefore they are a better match to the fluff. Also, keep in mind that battle psykers and such DO expend a lot of power to destroy tanks, melt units of men, etc. They WOULD be more at risk for these perils attacks.

DH laid the groundwork for a great system. Rogue Trader refined it into what we know to be true to fluff... now, it's just time to cover all the abilities that haven't been covered yet.

LuciusT said:

Of course, that is what I said. When Spykers are written about in 40k they often take one of two paths. RT takes the Eisenhorn/Cain/Ravenor route of allowing Psykers more or less free use of their powers so long as they limit themselves. While DH took the darker path of Blind/IG Codex/Gaunt's Ghosts of making their powers anathema to everyone, including the user, with reality itself rejecting their presence. I had no problem with the system as presented in DH, I ran and played in it quite successfully. I do not feel it was at odds with the fluff or poorly designed.

As for Blind, I was pointing out that something as simple as vivid nightmares was worthy of an execution. That is still pretty harsh, no matter how many astropaths are living in close proximity.

dvang said:

Replaced with but with no guidelines for extrapolating the degres of success for your DH powers.

Which is why I've asked for opinions in the rules section on my very simple "5 points of overbleed = 1 degree of success" suggestion.

Also... It seems there are no relative difficulties for different Psi Powers now.

Its as easy to manifest your basic psi techniques (those that even require a roll) as it is to manifest your most powerful techniques. They both utilise a Characteristic roll (Willpower) plus 5% per Psi Rating.. No harder or easier for either one.

This is unrelated to fettered/Unfettered/Push or even degree's of success.. they just make the power more potent "when" it manifests.. they've removed the variance in chance OF manifesting...

Not neccessarily a bad thing but it does make things a bit different.