Hello!

I know there's quite a bit of people talking about how 4 TLT is overpowered. While that is true (IMO) I think a large bit of it is getting out of your comfort zone! I made this thread to help people out having trouble with them. Please post in the comments your Counter lists/pilots or upgrades to Tech in. There's not much now but with your help will have it at least somewhat longer list.

Squads and Pilots to Counter it!

• BBBBZ

The raw Jousting efficiency of this list puts 4 TLT at a run for it's money! Make sure to keep arc on them though, a turn without shots could be the swing they need to beat you!

• Poe Dameron

Poe is very good against 4 TLT not only because his ability to almost always have a mini focus, not only how good he is with R5-P9, but he also can take Autothrusters which is completely ridiculous against those dang Ys.

• 2 Interceptors and Vader!?

I personally have not tried this out yet but apparently this list spat right in TLTs faces. Read about it here!

Upgrades to Tech into your old favorites!

• Sensor Jammer

A fan of Bro Bots or Phantoms? Drop whatever you were using and put sensor Jammer on! Sensor Jammer is terrible you might think, but the Y-wings will only have 1 focus at most making there second attack not nearly as strong!

• Lone Wolf

While Lone Wolf was never considered bad it never really fully caught on, you would see it from time to time but it wasn't extremely common. Pop Lone Wolf on a high agility ship and get loads of defense mods!

• Autothrusters

This one is a bit obvious! The ultimate auto include that is Autothrusters is very good vs. 4 TLTs for obvious reasons.

• PS3 and 4

Not all squad you were using have the extra points to take your generics up a couple PS. But if you do it could really help denying your opponent shots!

Do I have it all wrong? Correct me! Got a counter yourself? Comment below! Any Questions? Fire away!

Hope this helped you out!

EDIT: Thanks for all the support! A squad and Tech choice were added!

The problem with Poe (and any T-70 with AT) is only 2 agility dice against a TLTs 3 red dice. If those 3 reds are 3 hits, autothrusters and even Poe's ability won't save him. Kavil and his TLT will especially mean a quick trip off the board for Poe.

The problem with Poe (and any T-70 with AT) is only 2 agility dice against a TLTs 3 red dice. If those 3 reds are 3 hits, autothrusters and even Poe's ability won't save him. Kavil and his TLT will especially mean a quick trip off the board for Poe.

pretty big "if" there

trust me, after rolling with TLTs for a long time and then facing them, those 3 dice really have no **** bearing on how many hits they feel like rolling without full mods. They'll kill you eventually, but odds are Poe will murder them long before they get lucky enough to punch through his 6 health.

of course if it's just kavil (ergo impossible to get 4 tlts in a list) then it's just not much of a problem. One expensive Y-wing makes for a nice, juicy target.

not to mention, that's just Poe's ability (to make no mention of having innate boost potential, plus bb8 to dance around obstacles and into the doughnut hole...unless you want to use r5-p9 because you like making people cry)

the biggest counter to defeating TLTs is outmaneuvering the opponent. The Y-wings are not at all good in a straight joust and they're helpless at range 1 when they're running around to abuse their 360 fire. Poe can both outmaneuver and tank TLTs for days.

As a further point to the Sensor Jammer for BroBot pilots: you don't need to go all-out and stick it on both machines. Just one will turn the matchup from "pretty good" to "near auto-win". Also, if you use 88B as the Jammer-Bot, you may find it helps in other matchups, as suddenly opponents have to work that little bit harder to deny you your Gunner effect. Telling opponents they must Focus if they wish to damage you is more powerful than some might think.

I think that Poe is a very good counter to those TLTs. If they roll 3 hits plus 3 unmodified hits every time, there is nothing Poe can do. But if they roll like that there is no ship in the game that will survive, not even Corran, Soontir or Brobots. Even with Tokens and 3 Agility. So yes, if TLT Y-Wings rolled 3 hits all the time they would be op. Luckily enough they won't do that all the time (duh)!

And on 2 or 1 hit Poe is more likely to evade between Thrusters and his ability (against all incoming attacks).than most other ships. R5-P9 can also permit him to regen shields. So he is a prime choice for a TLT counter, not speaking of boosting to R1 to avoid most shots alltogether.

I think the real challenge is building a list that reliably beats quad TLT while also being able to go head to head with the rest of the meta.

So far it seems like only two lists (brobots, Soontir Vader Palpmobile) can. Feel free to add.

I dont think Poe is the saviour at all. His ability is good against multiple, low power attacks, so yeah if there was nothing but TLT and 2dice ships he'd be great.

But he quickly vanishes under concentrated fire from traditional attacks (think 3dice+focus) because then he's little more durable than the old x-wing. Or was anyone ever thinking Luke+r2d2 is a tank?

And then a simple block completely shuts his ability down, even those clunky ywings could do it (maybe).

So yeah i think he'll have his place as long as tlts are around, but he's not that great against the rest of the meta.

Swarm the fraggers.

Before we discount or overblow any dice rolls, do note:

3 dice F = 2.25 hits average.

3 dice no F = 1.5 hits average.

PLEASE CONTINUE DISCUSSION WITH THESE TIDBITS IN MIND.

Poes possible green dice:

evade evade = 2

evade focus -> 2

evade blank = > auto = 2

focus blank = 2

focus focus -> this ones hard. You may take damage here if you choose not to spend F, cuz early in round.

blank blank -> 1. You probably get hit.

--

If the TLT gets bumps, passes through a rock, takes stress. No F at all.

if we assume average rolls (which dont always happen), you're basically having to get the 3rd dice off of the remaining 0.25 chance. 1/4.

With regen and rest of ships focus firing, Poe should do pretty well theoretically.

Also... there is a R1 donut for any 4Y or 4 HWKs. For 3Ks, they are losing firepower, so just joust them.

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EDIT

Sorry, I forgot, but here's some real life talk:

Firstly, what I mean is that Poe should survive, but he will take moderate damage. The rest is how you fly the rest of your squad.

Second, if he rolls natural 2hits or 3hits on the first roll, AND he didn't burn focus on defense, you're likely in for 2 damage. Let that be noted.

3, Autothrusters really does it well. Esp on Soontir and Poe. Soontir has evades and extra focus and auto, and Poe has lots of health.

4, VI ACD Whisper WILL take damage from 4 tlts in 1 turn. In fact, probably will take two and die in two turns.

- Corollary: Whisper requires Palpatine, + Sensor Jammer, FCS (to take evades), or something else defensive to avoid losing health. Then you will be losing 0.5hp a turn -> without other ships shooting at whisper, this will lead to at least 3 turns of mayhem, likely going into whisper player's favor.

--

Again, a PSA. It has a R1 donut unless its Miranda who is also a PWT!!!!!!! BEWARE THIS.

You should be literally flying into the donut at times. This is literally and easily possible for mid level players.

Unlike chasing PWTs or attempting to consistently get Dash's donut. That is what I would call harder for mid level players.

If you cannot do the donut consistently, you need to start practicing that. Its a very doable skill that isn't nearly as hard as chasing PWTs or Dash donuts or crazy arc dodging.

This is how you deal with TLT

Soontir Fel (27)
Push the Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)

Carnor Jax (26)
Push the Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)

Darth Vader (29)
Predator (3)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)
Engine Upgrade (4)
TIE/x1 (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

my mate took this to OZ nats and going in he was worried he would have to face TLT. 3 of his 6 games were TLT and now he no longer fears TLTs

he wrote about it here

PS3+ swarms will eat these alive, especially once they get into R1.

I'd expect Redline to be decent. At best they'll need two turns to take him down, quite possibly three due to Autothrusters (need to do the math again, but assuming no focus on either attacker or defender, eight TLT attacks against a 1 agility, autothrusting ship equals something like five hits). Slow roll in, start with Plasma Torpedos, switching to Cluster Missiles at R1-2. Round out the list with two Obsidians, Dark Curse and Backstabber?

I think I would try to flank with the Fighters, closing the distance as fast as possible, while slowrolling straight towards the Ys with Redline. If they spread out to deal with the Fighters Redline will survive much longer. If they focus on Redline they'll have to take at least two full turns of firing before he's down, and then they'll have to deal with four higher PS, barrel rolling fighters that are quite likely behind them.

Advantages of a 4 x TLT Y-Wing Squadron:

• it's tough - there's a total of 32 hull points to chew through (12 shields, 20 hull)

• each ship is capable of two attacks per turn, allowing them to potentially strip defensive tokens and force through damage

• they have a range 2-3, 360 degree firing arc

• this makes them forgiving to fly - they can choose a flight path without worrying about getting a ship in arc

• they can take astromechs to help improve their manueverability

Disadvantages of a 4 x TLT Y-Wing Squadron

• have a slow, sub par, predictable dial as standard (improves slightly with astromech support)

• they are limited to focus and target lock for their actions

• they have no action economy to speak of

• they will often find themselves unable to modify the attack dice on at least one of their attack rolls

• they have an evade value of 1 - they will rely on soaking damage rather than avoiding it

• the majority of their hit points are invested in hull, making them highly susceptible to critical hits

• they are invariably PS2, which means that they will usually be moving first and shooting last

• this means at least one Y-Wing could quite easily be destroyed before it gets the chance to fire at all

• this also means that they are highly susceptible to Predator

• this also means they may be without focus tokens by the time they get to fire at all

• conversely, opponents with offensive upgrades or action economy will likely have defensive tokens available when the Y-Wings get to fire

• they effectively give up their ability to cause critical hits to improve their chances of causing regular damage

• that regular damage is limited to a maximum of 2 per turn, per ship (unless combined with BTL-A4 )

• they have an exploitable range one blind spot which immediately reduces the overall efficiency of the list

• their range one blind spot can also cause problems for them when trying to focus fire on a single target

So, considering TLT Y-Wings have 1 green dice, are slow, low PS and have a limited dial, health weighted in favour of hull and a massive blind spot at range one, the following should be quite effective against them:

• Ships with PS 3+

• Ships with 2+ attack dice in larger quantities

• Ships with 3+ attack dice in similar or larger quantities

• Ships with good dials and/or movement shenanigans

• 2nd-tier generics - Obsidians, Blacks, Sabres, Greens, Black Sun Aces etc

• Ships with reliable and reusable offence modifiers (Lone Wolf, Predator, Accuracy Corrector, Advanced Targeting Computer, certan named pilots)

• Ships with reliable and reusable defensive modifiers (Lone Wolf, Sensor Jammer, Flight Instructor, Autothrusters, certain named pilots)

• Ships with action economy

• Ships using ordnance alpha strikes (cluster missiles/proton rockets etc)

• Ships capable of reliably delivering Critical Hits...

So yeah, pretty much everything in the game, then.

Is it a good list?

It's not bad. It's main advantages are being (very) forgiving to fly, having a fairly reliable (if artificially limited) damage output and a hell of a lot of health to chew through.

Personally I think it will perform comparably well to a Bloody Daggers, Biggs Walks The Dogs or a TIE Swarm.

Like most min/maxed lists in the game, it will have better match up against some lists than it will against others.

It's best match ups are likely to be 2-3 ship builds - especially lists featuring a low agility large base ships or ceetain low overall health ships. Loaded Falcons/Decimators with an ace in support could especially will feel the pain, simply because once one of the ships goes down, the other will not have enough damage output to finish off the Y-Wings.

It's worst match ups will include 4+ ship builds. BBBBZ, Z95 swarms, TIE Swarms, Kihraxz swarms, anything throwing lots of attacks and lots of dice, anything capable of a powerful alpha strike, anything with movement actions capable of exploiting their blind spots and any lists where there is no obvious target priority.

As others have mentioned, defensive BroBot builds (especially featuring Autothrusters and Sensor Jammers) will be an exception to the 2-ship build rule, Autothrusters and multi-use defensive upgrades in general will frustrate TLT Y-Wing players.

Conclusions

4 x TLT Y-Wings strength is in their reliability, and their potential to shut down Falcons/Decimators could have significant implications for tournament list builders. Individually Y-Wings with TLTs (and HWKs as well, for that matter) have a lot of utility in a wide variety of lists - 2 TLT Y-Wings are a solid support choice for a YT-2400 or YT-1300, for example.

4 x TLT Y-Wings however are likely to prove a fad. It is a list that might catch a lot of players out initially - especially those subscribing to the 2 ship meta - but it has enough exploitable weaknesses and poor match ups to prevent it becoming a dominant force in it's own right.

The discussion has started to peter out a little bit, but there's a long conversation along the same lines here.

The discussion has started to peter out a little bit, but there's a long conversation along the same lines here.

Yeah for that reason and the reason I wanted a list I choose to make this topic.

Sidenote.

Thanks for the comments! A squad and tech choice were added to the list, check them out and keep them coming!

I'd expect Redline to be decent.

he actually is

Redline's deal is you have to really know your ranges and how to exploit them. 4 TLTs unloading won't kill him, but they're gonna hurt. Just one TLT, though? Easy fodder.

Give him a mini-swarm so the TLTs can't just bum-rush him without handing you a free win and -tada!- you've got a very solid ship

Redline w/plasmas + clusters + thrusters + fcs = 40 points

Zeta with PTL + 3 obsidians = 60

This just won a national tournament and would wreck 4 Y's. Soontir has 4 dice with tokens. 5 PS 3 ties shooting before the Y's.

TIE INTERCEPTOR: · Soontir Fel (27)

Push The Limit (3)

Autothrusters (2)

Royal Guard TIE (0)

Stealth Device (3)

TIE FIGHTER: Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13)

TIE FIGHTER: Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13)

TIE FIGHTER: Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13)

TIE FIGHTER: Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13)

TIE FIGHTER: Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13)

Bumping, as I've added a wall o' text.

This just won a national tournament and would wreck 4 Y's. Soontir has 4 dice with tokens. 5 PS 3 ties shooting before the Y's.

Yep. All the ships also have movement shenanigans as well - the TIE's dial combined with barrel roll should be able to get them into the range one blind spot and keep them there fairly regularly.

I don't have a complete list but..

Guri + Predator + Virago + Sensor Jammer + Autothrusters is a good start. Hard to hit and loves getting into range 1 for big damage.