Soontir Fel; PTL, Royal Guard Title, Stealth Device, Autothrusters.

Just try not to laugh or upset your opponent when all he can do is take models off.

Not true. TLT eats all ties for lunch. Especially versus multiple TLTS.

So I says to myself, Self? Why do I come to FFG forum? I only read the same angry gamer thread over and over again with only minor changes between them.

Clearly I must hate myself.

Rock, paper, scissors. Paper was broken, so everybody played rock. Two ship lists were rock. Paper is brought back into play so go get your scissors and knock the rust off them.

Tracers are going to be fun... I need to buy like, five Z95s. Nuts. Betcha the tracer missile gets the next broken thread.

im not talking balance. and i like that we see a shift in the meta now. But i still think the 4y tlt list promotes tedious playing experiences and i don't like how it was designed. It doesn't seem as if the turret was meant to be run in fours. And yes, i think it will be erataed just like BR on large ships and double tacs were. It actually baffles me that none of you seem to agree with this. Do you in all honesty like how the TLT spam list plays, since you're all making me feel like a big fat troll here?

To all those ex fat pwt players lamenting 4 ywing tlt lists don't worry so much someone will create another net list for you soon 4 generic y wings are not that amazing. They are some of the least maneuverable ships, low pilot skill and not very durable. I hardly expect it to win worlds.

im not talking balance. and i like that we see a shift in the meta now. But i still think the 4y tlt list promotes tedious playing experiences and i don't like how it was designed. It doesn't seem as if the turret was meant to be run in fours. And yes, i think it will be erataed just like BR on large ships and double tacs were. It actually baffles me that none of you seem to agree with this. Do you in all honesty like how the TLT spam list plays, since you're all making me feel like a big fat troll here?

But TLT doesn't work in range 1. So you bring something along that likes being in range 1, A-wing, Interceptor, and if your skilled enough with it, phantom. Basically any ship with 3 attack dice or more love's TLT's when they get into range 1.

So yes, I would love to see my opponent bring a TLT list.

As far as me personally running it, I would find it boring, so I simply don't play it. If other people want to run it, that's fine.

I am saying it is still very, very early. We have had one major tournament where the top players weren't using 4 TLTs. Yes, they have won two other major tournaments. But, it has been out for a month. Give the new meta a chance to settle. There is already stuff good enough to compete.

Is this going to happen after every wave? Prior to the release of 7 the TLT was hailed as the answer to the bogeyman that dominated the game. A month after release we now hear adjectives like boring, auto win, tedious and others way too numerous to mention. It's a problem to solve not something to pull your hair out and cry "OP" or "broken" or "how could the playtesters have missed this".

Everyone seems to know what makes the 4 Y + TLT so strong. Spend some of the energy and time now being wasted on complaining on developing a solid counter build and anti-TLT tactics.

Just because something doesn't work like we think it should doesn't mean that it's broken.

Rant over.

my guess is that it made it through play testing by play testing it against ships that are capable of landing damage on 1 agility y-wings

tough call I know

Don't even know what to say about this.

Say it with me Blerg:

Forum STILL needs dislike button.

Is this going to happen after every wave? Prior to the release of 7 the TLT was hailed as the answer to the bogeyman that dominated the game. A month after release we now hear adjectives like boring, auto win, tedious and others way too numerous to mention. It's a problem to solve not something to pull your hair out and cry "OP" or "broken" or "how could the playtesters have missed this".

This has been a public information broadcast on the subject of Stating What I Would Have Imagined To Be The Bleedin' Obvious.

im not talking balance. and i like that we see a shift in the meta now. But i still think the 4y tlt list promotes tedious playing experiences and i don't like how it was designed. It doesn't seem as if the turret was meant to be run in fours. And yes, i think it will be erataed just like BR on large ships and double tacs were. It actually baffles me that none of you seem to agree with this. Do you in all honesty like how the TLT spam list plays, since you're all making me feel like a big fat troll here?

If you think rolling dice too long... What do you think of eight ship swarm movement?

Edit: freakin' autocorrect

Don't even know what to say about this.

Say it with me Blerg:

Forum STILL needs dislike button.

You know, back when the idea of a dislike button started floating around for Facebook, I was for it. Now that they're actually considering it, I don't like it (pun not intended). Negativity is bad. Negativity is Donald Trump. Negativity is all this complaining about TLT's that aren't actually a problem, and being negative in response to that isn't going to help.

Positivity wins, Star Brothers.

Fly casual, and make posts worth disliking!

Change is apparently very scary. I wonder what the big boogeyman from Wave 8 will be?

Ghost with Phantom and TLT, shooting with 4 dice out of a front/back arc and then ending the combat round with a TLT volley.

I really don't see what the big deal is about it. It kicks out a max of 8 damage per round, and 4 unmodified low PS Y wings are going to eat a lot of damage per round.

yeah, ok you roll 24 attack dice a turn. So what? We're not talking about calculous problems...we're rolling dice here. You don't even have (or get) to declare a different target...just roll dice. Ever played a 7 or 8 ship swarm? That's a lot of dice...and dials...and movement templates going off and on. Far more "tedious".

I will agree that the 4 TLT y wing is not really a lot of thought...but that's not your perogative. You fly what you want to fly, let the other guy fly what he wants to fly.

Don't even know what to say about this.

Say it with me Blerg:

Forum STILL needs dislike button.

You know, back when the idea of a dislike button started floating around for Facebook, I was for it. Now that they're actually considering it, I don't like it (pun not intended). Negativity is bad. Negativity is Donald Trump. Negativity is all this complaining about TLT's that aren't actually a problem, and being negative in response to that isn't going to help.

Positivity wins, Star Brothers.

Fly casual, and make posts worth disliking!

Can we leave politics out, please?

Tracer Missiles are Broken!!!! .....thought Id get that outta the way.... OK now everyone...panic, in 3...2...

Don't even know what to say about this.

Say it with me Blerg:

Forum STILL needs dislike button.

You know, back when the idea of a dislike button started floating around for Facebook, I was for it. Now that they're actually considering it, I don't like it (pun not intended). Negativity is bad. Negativity is Donald Trump. Negativity is all this complaining about TLT's that aren't actually a problem, and being negative in response to that isn't going to help.

Positivity wins, Star Brothers.

Fly casual, and make posts worth disliking!

Can we leave politics out, please?

I did leave politics out of it. I mentioned Donald Trump.

You have to admit the TLT is way over the power curve for cards with a price that makes it a little too affordable. I happen to agree with the original post on the testing process (not blaming play testers specifically).

Unfortunately it is all Horton's fault. Imagine a world where TLTs functioned like other turrets and was restricted to range 1-2. We probably wouldn't be having this discussion becuase in that case there is a fairy serious weakness and you need to be able to pilot well in order to deliver to the goods. It also gets rid of the theTLTs most powerful ability which is preventing defensive range bonuses at range 3. The ability to ignore range bonuses means that the weapon is good against both high agility (where you only need to get through a small amount of damage) and against low agility (where you are all but guaranteed damage most of the time). As it stands (despite SableGryphon's off the wall antics) the TLT should never be paired with the BTL-A4 title since you lose a significant amount of shots/targets by doing so. If instead the TLT was range 1-2 the BTL-A4 would still be a serious consideration. I happen to think that the BTL-A4 Y-wings play a lot more like they "should" in the game, but I fear they will largely be extinct because the TLT so thouroughly overshadows all of the others turrets, save for a few corner cases.

As for how to play around it, of course there are many ways to do so, but in general without specific squad choices you are still often on the back foot. Yes, just like with the phantom it is possible to hard counter the TLT swarm, but that reduces list diversity where everyone needs to use specific counters in order to beat the big beast. Sure Sensor jammer is a great card for beating TLTs but not every list has Sensor Jammer as a viable list option. In the same way that the phantom was I do agree that the TLT is a negative play experience, particularly for those not prepared to face it.

I am fully able to play around them, but I don't believe the tiny lasers should have been published as is. But realistically there is not much that can be done about it now.

But how is it Horton's fault? I think they wanted a card to makes him (ab)useable and to gel with his pilot ability hence why the range 2-3 limit. Unfortunately, you will probably never see Horton because the action economy afforded by his pilot ability isn't worth the points investment.

Just so we're clear guys, I don't think OP was complaining that TLT's are broken or hard to beat. I think he was saying they're boring to use and boring to play against.

Which is a fair opinion, in my opinion.

Edit

Is it annoying to play against? Sure, but that's your opinion.

Was naught but Deci+Fel, Falcon+Escort, and SuperDash+Corran annoying to play against? Sure, but that's my opinion.

Just because you don't like what an upgrade brought to the game (made Y-Wings, a classic and super cool ship playable in a competitive setting) does not mean the answer is to immediately slam the playtesters and FFG. Instead you could do the positive thing for the community and participate in the "how to counter TLTs thread" I'll save you the time. What is good against low agility flying bricks? Ordinance! What got REALLY FREAKING GOOD with wave 7 - i.e. new pilots to deliver it, and new munitions entirely? Ordinance! Alpha strike lists can totally be a thing now even before tracers. If you play the quad TLT Y Wings in the attrition game, the mindset we all developed because of point fortressing fat turrets, - where they have really consistent damage and durability, then sure, you're probably gonna lose. But if you show up with something outside the box and blast one of the Ys off the board in the first turn of shooting you've cut the other guy's firepower by 25%! That's huge!

The point this whole ramble was about is that

1. X-Wing is a game with a constantly shifting meta thanks to a few open minded players that force the meta machine to turn it's gears and move on. If you don't like playing against something, there is probably a solution in existing upgrade cards - be it a new combo previously overlooked or what have you.

2. Think of how you can improve the game's community before bagging on playtesters and mechanics that you don't like

Just so we're clear guys, I don't think OP was complaining that TLT's are broken or hard to beat. I think he was saying they're boring to use and boring to play against.Which is a fair opinion, in my opinion.

True. I think the OP was just unfortunate to suffer forum backlash from yet another TLT hate thread, even if it was from another point of view.

Personally though, what's tedious to play against will also be opinion based. I've suffered only two games that hit the point of 'no fun' and both were well flown two ship lists that tore me apart so completely that I didn't even feel I was learning anything from the effort.

I know others who felt tedious was playing against ion cannons. I know I frustrated players that way with my list.

TLT should just cost eight points. It would still be really powerful, just without the NPE.

Or maybe Punishing One and TLT received the wrong packages when the point stork arrived at their doors.

As for how to play around it, of course there are many ways to do so, but in general without specific squad choices you are still often on the back foot. Yes, just like with the phantom it is possible to hard counter the TLT swarm, but that reduces list diversity where everyone needs to use specific counters in order to beat the big beast.

Yes, specific counters. If you're trying to fight TLTs, you can only choose from TIE Fighters, TIE Advanced, TIE Interceptors, Firesprays, TIE Bombers, Lambdas, TIE Phantoms, TIE Defenders, Decimators, TIE Punishers, X-wings, Y-wings, A-wings, YT-1300s, B-wings, HWKs, E-wings, Headhunters, YT-2400s, K-wings, StarVipers, Scyks, Aggressors, YV-666s, and Kihraxz fighters.

I can seriously think of lists and builds for every ship in the game that I would confidently take against TLT spam. They don't like jousters, because they're not efficient enough. They don't like arc dodgers, because they can't maneuver well. They don't like ordnance, because they're easy to hit. They don't like high-PS ships, action-efficient ships, ships with the sensor slot, ships with boost, or ships with the illicit slot.

It's not like the Phantom, which had one really prominent strategy for countering it. Everything in the game can be built as a TLT counter.

Just so we're clear guys, I don't think OP was complaining that TLT's are broken or hard to beat. I think he was saying they're boring to use and boring to play against.

Which is a fair opinion, in my opinion.

I agree. There are ways to beat them for sure. But it really is a boring, autopilot list that takes a lot of fun out of the game because you're pretty much just going through the motions without actually doing a lot of thinking.