they did not dominate the top squads.

I keep hearing 'But they won two nationals' as if that's proof enough to end the debate. Yes one did win the Spanish Nationals, but there was what 1 or 2 list out of 16 that had any TLT's? How many actually had 4?

What did the top 16 of the other one look like?

Also wasn't there one where part of the reason one won, was because the other guy didn't mark his asteroid properly and lost 50 points of MoV?

It's a fad list.

It's doing OK at the moment because a lot of players (primarily those using Falcon/Decimator 2-3 ship net lists) simply weren't prepared to face it.

It's main strengths are ease of use (360 fire arc) and attrition (high hit points, reliable damage output), both which are strong against the aforementioned 2-3 ships builds but can still be easily overcome. It has a metric crapton of exploitable weaknesses (see https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/189150-4-tlt-counters-and-tech-to-use/ for details).

It won't take long for it to be found out, accounted for and effectively neutered by savvy players. And when it is, TLT Y-Wings will be seen more often as good utility ships to fill out a list rather than the backbone of a list in their own right.

I have to agree.

When TLT first came out, I tried to use my old meta lists. (Ones especially that had heavy StarViper components) They failed terribly. So I looked at what 4xTLT lists boasted, saw a lot of health but high crit intake and relatively slow damage output and adjusted accordingly. Get a ship with some meat on it's bones and a big club and send it out to bonk the turrets on the head or race your fast and furious fighter in Range 1 and focus fire. Just don't expect to dance at range 3 and take potshots like your did with Engine upgraded Falcons or Decimators, there's a high chance you'll lose that slow and boring fight.

Honestly? Ywings are cool and I'm happy to have them be present on the board. The only lament I have is TLT made ships like the StarViper and especially the Special K pretty unusable. The 1 shield 4 hull isn't enough to last long against firepower of that reliable nature. As for the Special K, 2 dice being a sad pittance against TLT, and old Cobra doesn't even give to use his fancy double range bonus. (It gives you hope to dodge 1 but rarely ever does)

It's a fad list.

It's doing OK at the moment because a lot of players (primarily those using Falcon/Decimator 2-3 ship net lists) simply weren't prepared to face it.

It's main strengths are ease of use (360 fire arc) and attrition (high hit points, reliable damage output), both which are strong against the aforementioned 2-3 ships builds but can still be easily overcome. It has a metric crapton of exploitable weaknesses (see https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/189150-4-tlt-counters-and-tech-to-use/ for details).

It won't take long for it to be found out, accounted for and effectively neutered by savvy players. And when it is, TLT Y-Wings will be seen more often as good utility ships to fill out a list rather than the backbone of a list in their own right.

I have to agree.

When TLT first came out, I tried to use my old meta lists. (Ones especially that had heavy StarViper components) They failed terribly. So I looked at what 4xTLT lists boasted, saw a lot of health but high crit intake and relatively slow damage output and adjusted accordingly. Get a ship with some meat on it's bones and a big club and send it out to bonk the turrets on the head or race your fast and furious fighter in Range 1 and focus fire. Just don't expect to dance at range 3 and take potshots like your did with Engine upgraded Falcons or Decimators, there's a high chance you'll lose that slow and boring fight.

Honestly? Ywings are cool and I'm happy to have them be present on the board. The only lament I have is TLT made ships like the StarViper and especially the Special K pretty unusable. The 1 shield 4 hull isn't enough to last long against firepower of that reliable nature. As for the Special K, 2 dice being a sad pittance against TLT, and old Cobra doesn't even give to use his fancy double range bonus. (It gives you hope to dodge 1 but rarely ever does)

Guri and Xizor can be decent against them. They can take 2 of the upgrades that really annoy them, Autothrusters and Sensor Jammer.

Game design must be really hard.

This is actually a really good comment that I wanted to single out, because while I'm sure a lot of people are all "yeah, well that's their JOB - if they can't do it, someone else should," most people don't understand much of what actually goes into it. It's easy to look at something and go "oh that's overcosted junk," but there are usually a myriad of less obvious reasons why things wind up costing what they do.

The example I always like to use is the humble X-wing - ever wondered why it costs 21 points, and not 20 - or 22? If it was 20 you could take 5 of them - and even in the current meta that would be an AWFULLY powerful list.

But when costs on stuff are getting adjusted it's easy to look at them in a vacuum (no pun intended) and not consider that if this cost a point less, you could take X many of them, or you could upgrade wingmen from X-wings to B-wings, or could could squeeze in HLCs. If Aggressors were a few points cheaper you could take THREE naked ones and still have the title to share abilities.

Inevitably, some of the stuff that's just coming out now was tested against stuff you don't know exists in the NEXT wave, or potentially the wave beyond THAT, depending on how far out they're developing things, and they have a much bigger picture view of how the meta will shake out than the players do. What seems like a game breaking crisis now might be just a couple month blip in the grand scheme of things.

Do they always get it right? No - and when mistakes get made, they fix them. And sometimes a design element may be perfectly legit at the time it was conceived and released, only to have the meta pass it by as other, more efficient options are released - but when that happens we've seen them react to that, too. Most of the time people are mad there isn't an immediate, silver bullet fix, but over-corrections are dangerous and we tend to see them err on the side of small, cautious fixes until they find a balance they like, so something like a TIE Advanced doesn't go from seeing one pilot in play to being THE dominant ship in all of X-wing.

And if you think that idea is ridiculous you're not grasping just how thin that line is at times between overcosted and overpowered, or how many variables get tested to try and find that balance, or forgetting that with every new release the line is shifting, back and forth, and may get stronger or weaker but hopefully stays within that margin of error between a must-include, a balanced piece, and obsolescence. Fixes also take time, as they need to be created, tested, balanced, and then somehow released into the wild within FFG's retail model, and in a way that makes financial sense for them. (Inevitably to be accused of greed, whether they release it in an aces pack "oh great, another repaint," or with an Epic ship "oh great, a repaint with a $100 price tag for a giant ship I don't want.")

Game design IS hard. It's a complicated math problem, and for better or worse (mostly better) FFG isn't required to show you their work - so we're often left arguing with an end result without being privy to the process that brought them there.

The only thing I can really think to say is that I have literally lost track of the number of ships, or upgrades, that led to a dozen individual "OMG teh sky iz falling FFG haz broken teh game, so long Xwing!" threads that I've seen over the past few years. Yet even in the rare instance where the community was correct to a degree, and something like the Phantom (the cloak mechanics, specifically) was deemed a bit too good, the problem was identified, changes were tested, and a balance fix was FAQ'd into the next possible rules update.

And once more, the sky didn't fall, the game didn't go charging off the rails, and everyone is still here complaining about the next new broken card while eagerly anticipating that next wave, that next announcement, and a chance to forget about the fact the sky didn't fall last time, didn't fall this time, and can move on and spend their time predicting it will CERTAINLY fall at last, the next time.

What is it they said on BSG?

"All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again."

So say we all.

The only thing I can really think to say is that I have literally lost track of the number of ships, or upgrades, that led to a dozen individual "OMG teh sky iz falling FFG haz broken teh game, so long Xwing!" threads that I've seen over the past few years. Yet even in the rare instance where the community was correct to a degree, and something like the Phantom (the cloak mechanics, specifically) was deemed a bit too good, the problem was identified, changes were tested, and a balance fix was FAQ'd into the next possible rules update.

And once more, the sky didn't fall, the game didn't go charging off the rails, and everyone is still here complaining about the next new broken card while eagerly anticipating that next wave, that next announcement, and a chance to forget about the fact the sky didn't fall last time, didn't fall this time, and can move on and spend their time predicting it will CERTAINLY fall at last, the next time.

Special shout out to Assault Missiles to be the first one to cause sky is falling complaints. Which is kind of hilarious to think about now.

I think at this point that rather than beating the dead horse, we should prevent it's inevitable rise as a zombie, and just shoot it in the head already.

I think at this point that rather than beating the dead horse, we should prevent it's inevitable rise as a zombie, and just shoot it in the head already.

Anyone who says this has never tried beating a LIVE horse.

Those things'll kick your face off, man.

Having played against 4x TLTs (Scum with Unhinged Astros), I have to say that, in that scenario, leaning slightly towards overpowered. If it weren't a turret, but a cannon, I'd have no problem with it. But, again, turrets have little to no downside and partnered with 8 hull ships, it is a grind. Not unbeatable, but a grind and not terribly fun to play with or against.

range 2-3 and max 1 damage (non-crit) per shot are all good downsides

"no downsides" is PWT territory

The only lament I have is TLT made ships like the StarViper and especially the Special K pretty unusable. The 1 shield 4 hull isn't enough to last long against firepower of that reliable nature. As for the Special K, 2 dice being a sad pittance against TLT, and old Cobra doesn't even give to use his fancy double range bonus. (It gives you hope to dodge 1 but rarely ever does)

That's a bold statement!

As a Kihraxz runner myself, I'm not anticipating too much trouble from a 4 x TLT list. In fact, I faced a couple of TLTs at a recent tournament anfound them underwhelming on generics (which a 4 x TLT Y-Wing list is likely to be). Even Kavil with his extra dice out of arc found himself missing shots when he was unable to modify the dice.

5 x Cartel Marauders should wipe the floor with 4 x TLT Y-Wings pretty much every time. 15 attack dice per turn vs a maximum damage output of 8 regular hits per turn. They'd comfortably take down a Y-Wing a turn, even taking into account initiative and return fire.

Named pilots like TBC will need to be cagey; you will want to try and make sure that you can't be focused down by multiple Y-Wings at once; PS advantage and movement shenanigans help, so Talon (as always) would benefit from an Engine Upgrade.

The same is true for most named pilots though, to be honest - Boost and Barrel Roll are their friends, as are obstructions, as are the range one blind spot and simply staying out of range if possible. TLT Y-Wings excel when there is an expensive priority target on the board for them to focus down, be it a Fat Han/Decimator or a valuable elite pilot.

I'm sorry, but I simply can't resist to give that answer:

It just destroyed everything else

5 x Cartel Marauders should wipe the floor with 4 x TLT Y-Wings pretty much every time. 15 attack dice per turn vs a maximum damage output of 8 regular hits per turn. They'd comfortably take down a Y-Wing a turn, even taking into account initiative and return fire.

I think that's probably true if you can make sure most of your Kirassshhhzzxs are at R2 your first round of fire. If the Ys can force a R3 engagement the K-fighters are probably in all sorts of trouble. Who gets initiative in that scenario is interesting too - if your opponent has it, do you spend Focus in defence or save it for the vital alpha strike?

Having played against 4x TLTs (Scum with Unhinged Astros), I have to say that, in that scenario, leaning slightly towards overpowered. If it weren't a turret, but a cannon, I'd have no problem with it. But, again, turrets have little to no downside and partnered with 8 hull ships, it is a grind. Not unbeatable, but a grind and not terribly fun to play with or against.

I just played against this with a swarm the other night. I left wondering how on Earth I could counter the TLT list with a list that wouldn't fall to other list archetypes.

Tlt should of been a 1 damage with a built in gunner type ability instead of 2 damage potential and stayed a turret to help the hwk and ywing which needed it. But overall it's not as bad as pwt were.

Special shout out to Assault Missiles to be the first one to cause sky is falling complaints. Which is kind of hilarious to think about now.

You don't understand! If you take A-wings, you'll be able to run four of them in a list. Four. And with enough space for Deadeye, too! No one will ever fly swarms again.

Can't you fly 4 Phantoms and have a decent chance at one volleying a Y-Wing off the board before it can fire at PS 2? Isn't the first engagement decloak going to help a ton getting with closing the distance to minimize the trolololol 3 green maneuver?

Yeah I had mentioned sigma swarm in one of these threads...

I don't think I'd ever want to run four naked Sigma Squadron pilots...

Two Stygium Shadow Squadrons and ACD Whisper makes for a fun glass hammer list...

I don't think I'd ever want to run four naked Sigma Squadron pilots...

Yes you would. That's 4 heavy laser cannons. The dial on the things (a TIE Fighter dial copy without the 5 straight)combined with the absurdity of the decloak maneuver means in that initial engagement you can get an arc on things easily that most other ships would have to spend a K-turn to get in arc. You can fly down the length of your starting area and have someone approach from your side and just decloak towards them and hard 1 turn.

I don't think I'd ever want to run four naked Sigma Squadron pilots...

Yes you would. That's 4 heavy laser cannons. The dial on the things (a TIE Fighter dial copy without the 5 straight)combined with the absurdity of the decloak maneuver means in that initial engagement you can get an arc on things easily that most other ships would have to spend a K-turn to get in arc. You can fly down the length of your starting area and have someone approach from your side and just decloak towards them and hard 1 turn.

4 heavy laser cannons which can cause critical damage.

4 heavy laser cannons which can cause critical damage and add an extra dice at range one.

4 heavy laser cannons which can cause critical damage, add an extra dice at range one and who start at PS3.

4 heavy laser cannons which can cause critical damage, add an extra dice at range one, who start at PS3 and who have the ability to double their agility, then perform a 2 barrel roll or 2 straight boost before they activate the following turn...

...shall we go on?

I don't think I'd ever want to run four naked Sigma Squadron pilots...

Yes you would. That's 4 heavy laser cannons. The dial on the things (a TIE Fighter dial copy without the 5 straight)combined with the absurdity of the decloak maneuver means in that initial engagement you can get an arc on things easily that most other ships would have to spend a K-turn to get in arc. You can fly down the length of your starting area and have someone approach from your side and just decloak towards them and hard 1 turn.

4 heavy laser cannons which can cause critical damage.

4 heavy laser cannons which can cause critical damage and add an extra dice at range one.

4 heavy laser cannons which can cause critical damage, add an extra dice at range one and who start at PS3.

4 heavy laser cannons which can cause critical damage, add an extra dice at range one, who start at PS3 and who have the ability to double their agility, then perform a 2 barrel roll or 2 straight boost before they activate the following turn...

...shall we go on?

Man i wonder why this list hasnt won worlds, it seems soo powerfull

2 Agility, 2 Hull, 2 Shields.

2 Agility, 2 Hull, 2 Shields.

I don't think 4 Ys with TLT create that bad of a play experience. Why?

First:

4 TLT Ys = 4 dials to set and execute

8 TIEs/Zs = 8 dials to set and execute

Setting and executing maneuvers takes much longer than rolling dice in this game, so the TIE and Z swarm are worse about that than the Ys.

Also, Ys can usually stay in formation so their maneuver selection is quicker, whereas swarms turn into furballs which add more time to maneuvering decisions.

Finally, swarms bump more often than the Ys, and bumping adds to game time AND ITS FRUSTRATING TO PHYSICALLY DO OVER AND OVER.

Second:

4 TLT Ys = 4 targets to declare

8 TIEs/Zs = 8 targets to declare

While the swarm matches the number of attacks to roll as the Ys (if they are all in range), the Ys don't have as many targeting decisions to make, and sometimes targeting decisions can take as long or longer to make than rolling the attack. This means the swarm once again will typically take longer than the Ys to resolve shooting.

Third:

Half of the Ys dice rolls are usually unmodified, whereas all swarm attacks will usually be modified, meaning the swarm will again take more time than the Ys to resolve.

In conclusion, I think 4 TLT Ys made it through testing because it's not as bad as you think in terms of playing experience. The swarm is much worse.