Arc dodgers, Autothrusters

Personally I feel like a grande choco macchiato with cream, sprinkes and an expresso shot is OP.

Personally I feel like a grande choco macchiato with cream, sprinkes and an expresso shot is OP.

it's not OP, it just hardcounters your pancreas

As much as I like TLT peace be upon him, the complaints about TLT have nothing to do with the length of time it takes to fire off 8 attacks or set four dials. I don't think it being a faster playing list than a swarm makes it less of a NPE for the people that don't like it.

There are two types of TLT haters:

1.) Children with ice cream on their face that hate that their Super Dash Corran list can no longer autowin against anything that's not also a fat turret list.

2.) People with reasonable concerns.

50 - 60% of the complainers fall into category #1. I find it hard to believe that there is magically this sudden rise in innocent turret hate that has nothing to do with quad TLT pretty much autowinning against old 2 ship lists, lists that most players insisted they enjoyed flying.

You know I never flew dash/corran.

flew corran once in an escort mission for a GR75. did terribly. Better to fly a half dozen B-wings on space crack. I never felt comfortable fielding only 2 ships.

not only am I not convinced that TLTs by themselves are anything overpowered (since they're stupidly dice dependent, despite probability being apparently in their favor), but there are some incredibly fun new toys which just curb stomp the poor bastards

case in point: T-70 X-wing

Poe (BB-8, PTL, thrusters)

Red Vet (Predator, thrusters) X 2

= 100 points

sub in one vet's predator for r3-a2 + wired to tackle a wider variety of lists

for a more general counter, remember the doughnut hole is exceedingly crippling for these poor guys. With proper range control, you can exploit that fear without even actually diving into range 1. If TLTs scatter out of fear of getting caught in overlapping donughtholes and you instead go slowly, there are going to be a lot of TLTs out of range for the turn letting you focus fire one poor bastard to death.

this little exploit surprisingly makes Redline a very solid counter to TLTs. He doesn't like TLTs in a vacuum (dat 1 agility, unless you're obstructed...), but he will wreck the **** out of one before it even comes close to killing him. If you control your range to get 1-on-1s with Redline, you are basically guaranteed to come out ahead. Once the herd has thinned, you can even use boost to abuse the doughnut hole.

been running

Redline (fcs, plasmas, clusters, thrusters) [40]

ZetaAce (PTL) [21]

3 Obsidians [39]

that'll one round a Y-wing without issue, before it can shoot

that said, not certain Redline is in general worth it over V.I + FCS + ACD + Int Agent whisper. About the only time I'd say he's definitely the right choice is when facing rebel captive (FCS don't give a ****)

the moment a gameplay piece has to be played well in order to be effective is, imo, the moment it cannot be classified as OP anymore. Pre-errata whisper wasn't exactly like that (without exceedingly specific counters, she just didn''t give a ****), but TLTs really do care if they don't position themselves properly. Without the ease of high PS post maneuver movements, said positioning is far more easily said than done.

So when did NPE become a thing and why are 4xTLT Ys the biggest offender?

Fat Han boosting away from me nuking my ships? NPE

Brobots dodging my arcs and nuking my ships? NPE

Jake one-shotting Vader with prockets? NPE

Seems to me that someone's getting a NPE in pretty much every game so why do we still play?

So when did NPE become a thing and why are 4xTLT Ys the biggest offender?

Fat Han boosting away from me nuking my ships? NPE

Brobots dodging my arcs and nuking my ships? NPE

Jake one-shotting Vader with prockets? NPE

Seems to me that someone's getting a NPE in pretty much every game so why do we still play?

So when did NPE become a thing and why are 4xTLT Ys the biggest offender?

Fat Han boosting away from me nuking my ships? NPE

Brobots dodging my arcs and nuking my ships? NPE

Jake one-shotting Vader with prockets? NPE

Seems to me that someone's getting a NPE in pretty much every game so why do we still play?

you forgot the original NPE

green dice in general

mostly kidding, but I've finally been on the observing end of someone running TLTs against seemingly immortal tie fighters. Needless to say, I was very sympathetic

The truth:

Whatever beats me = NPE.

I have a question about the twin laser turret... Why does it get 3 attacks twice? Shouldn't the TIE Fighter or Z-95 (or any double barrel weapon for that matter) get 3 attacks twice then, just not necessarily with a turret?

I have a question about the twin laser turret... Why does it get 3 attacks twice? Shouldn't the TIE Fighter or Z-95 (or any double barrel weapon for that matter) get 3 attacks twice then, just not necessarily with a turret?

FFG is trying to make a secondary turret that's worthwhile as a turret and they succeeded. Attack values are game mechanics not some kind of physics engine.

I have a question about the twin laser turret... Why does it get 3 attacks twice? Shouldn't the TIE Fighter or Z-95 (or any double barrel weapon for that matter) get 3 attacks twice then, just not necessarily with a turret?

FFG is trying to make a secondary turret that's worthwhile as a turret and they succeeded. Attack values are game mechanics not some kind of physics engine.

Edit: haven't faced a TLT so I don't have an opinion one way or another, was just curious.

The blaster turret has 3. The autoblaster turret has 2.

The blaster turret has 3. The autoblaster turret has 2.

Yea, I was noticing that, that turrets seem better than the ship mounted weapons, you'd think turrets would be on par/worse because of the 360 advantage.

Just an observation was all.

Well, they kinda have to be since you pay for them and you lose your ship's primary to use them(except for the BTL which isn't shooting 360).

Jake one-shotting Vader with prockets? NPE

That's not how you spell "Arvel"

The blaster turret has 3. The autoblaster turret has 2.

Yea, I was noticing that, that turrets seem better than the ship mounted weapons, you'd think turrets would be on par/worse because of the 360 advantage.

Just an observation was all.

You're also confusing the fact that for ships like the Falcon there is no distinction between "turret," and "ship-mounted weapon" since the visible turrets ARE its primary weapon for game purposes, able to shoot outside of its primary fire arc.

We've been through the 'count the number of barrels' argument since the TIE Interceptor showed up. The game is an abstraction. It tries to capture the feel of Star Wars while attempting to balance things mechanically. It never works well when you start trying to analyze things too closely. The TLT is designed to put out reliable damage, particularly against lower AGI targets, at ranges 2-3, out of fire arc, which is a concept the game previously lacked. It fills a specific niche in terms of game mechanics; nothing more and nothing less.

Technically ships like the B-wing should mount ALL of the weapons listed in their upgrade bar, simultaneously - not pick and choose by spending points. But for game balance purposes having a ship you could fly a squadron of, with blasters, a heavy laser cannon, ion cannon, autoblaster, AND torpedoes would be completely broken. So you get the 'naked' ship and pay to outfit it. Same with the obvious turret on the Y-wing, the rear gun (which I think AntiPursuit Lasers was meant to represent) on the Lambda, and so on.

Don't overthink it. The designers realized there was no turret that functioned well out at range 3, and saw an opportunity to develop one with an interesting mechanical game design. That's all.

I know people are tired of the complaints, but I can't help but also question how these turret issues keep on arising. PWT were a problem for a long time (and were still incredibly dominant until very recently), we received multiple changes to address the problem, and now here we are with another potential turret issue. Lists dominated by turrets are incredibly boring to play and play against and honestly, I think people that disagree with this probably are absolute bores that only benefit from playing ultra-safe lists where firing arcs are a complete afterthought. If you can't see why turrets can be such a problem to the depth and strategy of this game, then you really don't appreciate why PWT were so dominant in the first place, and what it took away from the game.

Turret wing needs to die. People may be overreacting, but that's simply a symptom of the issue at large. I'm all for people calling turret balance into question, for it's a **** delicate thing to consider.

Played TLT, tested it a LOT.

Sorry, I disagree with your entire premise, on the face and in the details.

If you are finding TLT spam boring to face, you are doing it wrong. Finessing ranges so that 1 or 2 of the spread out Y-Wings are out of range entirely, followed by diving in to make sure 1 or 2 of the close together Y-Wings are too close to shoot, focusing your fire on one Y at a time, these make for some really challenging and satisfying games of maneuver. If you just fly straight at it and get shot down.... Well let's just say it isn't the list that lacks imagination.

When flying TLT, the converse is true. You need to be able to expand and contract your formation, so that you simultaneously keep all 4 Ys in range but none of them too close. You need to scatter from time to time to force them to chase a wounded Y, and sacrifice a wounded ship from time to time to keep them from closing to range 1 of the rest of your formation. Using Y-Wings, which might not be the most un-maneuverable ships in the game but they aren't going to surprise anyone either. If you didn't plan at least 2 turns out, you aren't going to do anything that takes them unaware.

Honestly? I think TLT would work at 5 points. I have never, ever had trouble dealing with them but I have always enjoyed the challenge of peeling the onion exactly one layer at a time. Don't get too close, don't get too far away, focus your fire but don't let a wounded ship take fire from more than one, it's a tactical challenge and it's a lot of fun to deal with.

Lists aren't boring, players are boring. Even the tankiest fortress list offers a way to beat it. The whole exercise of this game is finding a way to leverage your swuad'a advantages against the opponent's. TLTS offer plenty of disadvantages that you have to either mitigate or exploit. I've playedone tournaments where I spent half a day fighting turrets of various stripes, and never gotten bored. I use range, asteroids, the board edge and planning ahead to wedge the opposing squad into places where I have the advantage. This makes for an interesting game if you're willing to think beyond just lining up across from a squad and rolling dice.

I have a question about the twin laser turret... Why does it get 3 attacks twice? Shouldn't the TIE Fighter or Z-95 (or any double barrel weapon for that matter) get 3 attacks twice then, just not necessarily with a turret?

The dice and attack count aren't designed that way. Those are set to represent the crafts accuracy and weapon power.

The Z is fine, I think, considering it's cost. The ship that I feel is misrepresented is the A-Wing.

The A-Wing has low power gimbal laser cannons, meaning it should have a better chance to hit than other craft, but deal low damage.

They compensated for this in the design by adding in the test pilot title, though.

I don't think I'd ever want to run four naked Sigma Squadron pilots...

Yes you would. That's 4 heavy laser cannons. The dial on the things (a TIE Fighter dial copy without the 5 straight)combined with the absurdity of the decloak maneuver means in that initial engagement you can get an arc on things easily that most other ships would have to spend a K-turn to get in arc. You can fly down the length of your starting area and have someone approach from your side and just decloak towards them and hard 1 turn.

When Phantoms came out first i thought exactly the same. In thought this would become one of the top lists to beat. Until i tried it and also ran into it a few times.

You just don't have the action economy you need to make it work, and then even those 4 red dice are not worth it. On top of that, you are a Z-95 for defense unless cloaked. And everyone can kill you pretty **** easily.

I'm not saying it couldn't work vs. 4YTLT though. If you manage to get a decent decloak you might get a good beginning exchange, which will probably be enough to win.

But against too many other lists, this really really sucks!

The A-Wing has low power gimbal laser cannons, meaning it should have a better chance to hit than other craft, but deal low damage.

Kind of like the TLT, then? They could always release a Low Power Gimbal Laser Cannon 0 point mod that gives say, an extra die to primary weapon attacks, but then cancels it all and deals one boom.

I don't think I'd ever want to run four naked Sigma Squadron pilots...

Yes you would. That's 4 heavy laser cannons. The dial on the things (a TIE Fighter dial copy without the 5 straight)combined with the absurdity of the decloak maneuver means in that initial engagement you can get an arc on things easily that most other ships would have to spend a K-turn to get in arc. You can fly down the length of your starting area and have someone approach from your side and just decloak towards them and hard 1 turn.

When Phantoms came out first i thought exactly the same. In thought this would become one of the top lists to beat. Until i tried it and also ran into it a few times.

You just don't have the action economy you need to make it work, and then even those 4 red dice are not worth it. On top of that, you are a Z-95 for defense unless cloaked. And everyone can kill you pretty **** easily.

I'm not saying it couldn't work vs. 4YTLT though. If you manage to get a decent decloak you might get a good beginning exchange, which will probably be enough to win.

But against too many other lists, this really really sucks!

Against a list without/with few turrets it would be an interesting experiment to open with a 4-straight followed by a straight decloak and a 4-k .