And how many tournaments have Fat Han combos won? There will always be an optiimum combination of ships and upgrades that will generally win that is the nature of games such as these. Wait for the next wave and see what comes out on top then.

I played a game with 1 TLT on KAvil. It was not fun for me or my opponent I agree they are niot fun.

Fat Han, also not fun. I thinl the TLT will start to act more like a nuclear weapons race eventually people will stop taking Fat Han for fear of TLT's and then people will stop taking TLT's becasue they don't need to now.

They will both just be there staring each other down for the rest of eternity.

I like the image, Star Wars Cold War...... Mutually Assured Destruction.

My friend was like "I don't see why that card is good, you can only do one damage per attack"

He then took 4 bombers and i flew kavil behind them, also had a Z swarm and Talonbane (obviously he goes in every list)

At one point he was very upset that I finished off one ship with the first attack and ten took a shot at a different ship with the second.

I obliterated him and I did not enjoy it, i won't be using them again unless he takes a falcon.

My friend was like "I don't see why that card is good, you can only do one damage per attack"

He then took 4 bombers and i flew kavil behind them, also had a Z swarm and Talonbane (obviously he goes in every list)

At one point he was very upset that I finished off one ship with the first attack and ten took a shot at a different ship with the second.

I obliterated him and I did not enjoy it, i won't be using them again unless he takes a falcon.

You played it wrong then, you only declare a target once. So if the first attack kills the ship you can not shoot another target.

You declare a target once per attack correct.

You perform the attack twice with TLT so there's 2 declare target steps.

Edit:

I see that's been erraterered?

We played before the new rules or anything were out I'm fairly sure that's how it worked then?

Is the same true with gunner and luke and stuff?

You declare a target once per attack correct.

You perform the attack twice with TLT so there's 2 declare target steps.

No. This has already been discussed. It works like cluster missiles.

From the FAQ:

Hmm you're right, I could re-position it's wings.

While I don't think it needs it there are some pretty cool mods of Star Vipers in "cruise position". It is a beautiful ship.

16 pages late to the party but to add in my thoughts:

TLTs are not a good addition to the game. Yes, they will help reduce the amount of fat, large base ships, but there is absolutely no point in doing that if all you are doing is replacing them with another stale and, actually, far more boring list.

TLT lists are very difficult to fly against but require virtually no thought to fly. You just swoop around throwing buckets of dice until your opponent dies. Yes, they have a hole at Range 1 and yes you could also try to stay outside of Range 3, but both those things are actually fairly difficult against a half-decent opponent.

If I had a TLT list and saw 4x Green Squadron Pilots across the board then it would be immediately obvious they would try to get into Range 1. Similarly a double Defender list with HLCs would obviously try to play the Range 3 game. Once you know that, it isn't that difficult to make sure you still have three out of four ships shooting the same target each turn. The fourth will probably still get a shot in against another target anyway.

TLTs are as meta-defining as Phantoms were and will "Rock, Paper, Scissors" the game just as much. People have just picked up on it much more quickly this time around.

It is early, that is true. But they've amassed a pretty notorious reputation in just a matter of weeks and it seems like it's more than just a few drops in the bucket voicing their concerns about it. Now could the whole thing still be a knee-jerk reaction? Possibly. Or maybe there is a good reason for the outcry. Time will tell I guess.

This isn't coming from someone who is irked they got spanked by them or can't find a way to deal with them and is now running in panic mode. It's coming from someone who has seen them in action on both sides of the table and found them to be incredibly dull and cheesy (and yes, more autopilot than anything we've seen to date). That's just my own personal opinion. They feel a bit like a cop out actually, whether or not that was the intent.

Well honestly st the moment it's you and maybe 3 other guys rather than a lot of people if i look at the threads. But that does not mean that its totally impossible you're right. I mean if the next 10 big tournaments were 7 TLT victories or something like that i lt would still be a relatively small sample but i'd be concerned then too.

What i believe though is that there are already good counters, just that people still shy away from using 3-6 resilient small ships instead of their trusted 2 ship list. I think that there are just a few aces tgat really will be worth their points against TLTs.

They either need to be ultra dodgy, like Soontir (and be lucky enough to not fail on green for at least a turn or two. Or they need to be super tanky and/or regen shields, like Corran or Poe with the appropriate equipment.

Except for that I believe that min/maxing hitpoints, firepower and defensive tokens is the way to beat TLTs. If you outdamage them or outtank them there is not much they can do. Therefore one of the hardes counters to TLTs that i can even think of is BBBBZ or BBBB with Fcs.

Midrange ships could also get more interesting since they have PS advantage over Thugs or Golds, but then again most skills don't justiy their price tag and to fly one less ship...

Hmm you're right, I could re-position it's wings.

While I don't think it needs it there are some pretty cool mods of Star Vipers in "cruise position". It is a beautiful ship.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Never liked the looks of the Star Viper.

TIE Interceptor, Decimator, Phantom on the other hand...

I see that's been erraterered?

We played before the new rules or anything were out I'm fairly sure that's how it worked then?

No it hasn't, it has always read "perform this attack twice". Not "perform another attack".

16 pages late to the party but to add in my thoughts:

TLTs are not a good addition to the game. Yes, they will help reduce the amount of fat, large base ships, but there is absolutely no point in doing that if all you are doing is replacing them with another stale and, actually, far more boring list.

TLT lists are very difficult to fly against but require virtually no thought to fly. You just swoop around throwing buckets of dice until your opponent dies. Yes, they have a hole at Range 1 and yes you could also try to stay outside of Range 3, but both those things are actually fairly difficult against a half-decent opponent.

If I had a TLT list and saw 4x Green Squadron Pilots across the board then it would be immediately obvious they would try to get into Range 1. Similarly a double Defender list with HLCs would obviously try to play the Range 3 game. Once you know that, it isn't that difficult to make sure you still have three out of four ships shooting the same target each turn. The fourth will probably still get a shot in against another target anyway.

TLTs are as meta-defining as Phantoms were and will "Rock, Paper, Scissors" the game just as much. People have just picked up on it much more quickly this time around.

Maybe you get this the wrong way around. The last time something meta defining entered the game it was the Phantom and it was bad. While you could get lucky if they whiffed defense when you flew well they were almost impossible to beat without a dedicated counter. Now TLT enters the game and it is obvious that it will have/has a huge impact. People have the same knee-jerk reaction and believe that you need to specificaly counter them, but in the end that might not be true.

TLTs can be beaten outside of the list building stage. The reason why they seem so strong right now is that they provide a hard counter to formerly popular meta squads when flown correctly, but many lists won't even have to adapt. BBBBZ can focus fire them down. A single B-Wing is unlikely to fall from even 8 TLT attacks, since that requires 4 unmodified rolls not to whiff, while a Y-Wing has a pretty good chance at getting torn apart by the B-Wings alone. TIE Interceptors, have all the tools they need to tank a few shots and hide at range 1. Sensor Jammers make Brobots kings in a TLT dominated meta. Guri actually has a place now! TIE and Z-95 swarms both are now, especially with the MOV change, again a force to be reckoned with. Last of all there finally is a really good matchup for damage spiking squads with huge ordnance alpha strikes, giving them room in this meta where befor they were allright, but kind of meh. I want to see the Y-Wing that survives the alpha strike of this squad: https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v3!s!50:-1,126,13,-1,-1:-1:-1:;50:-1,126,13,-1,-1:-1:-1:;50:-1,126,13,-1,-1:-1:-1:;51:27,-1,-1,17,-1,-1:-1:-1:

The difference being TLT spam has won two nationals while fortress builds haven't.

Meh, people will adapt.

The clamoring for changing the game because a new list is currently dominant is getting stale.

Swarms kill Fat Han, Fat Han kills Arc-Dodgers (Phantoms), Arc-Dodgers (Phantoms) kill Swarms.

Treat TLT as a Fat Han list for the purposes of above statement.

It's not a definitive rule, but it works for most cases.

It's a fad list.

It's doing OK at the moment because a lot of players (primarily those using Falcon/Decimator 2-3 ship net lists) simply weren't prepared to face it.

It's main strengths are ease of use (360 fire arc) and attrition (high hit points, reliable damage output), both which are strong against the aforementioned 2-3 ships builds but can still be easily overcome. It has a metric crapton of exploitable weaknesses (see https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/189150-4-tlt-counters-and-tech-to-use/ for details).

It won't take long for it to be found out, accounted for and effectively neutered by savvy players. And when it is, TLT Y-Wings will be seen more often as good utility ships to fill out a list rather than the backbone of a list in their own right.

It's a fad list.

It's doing OK at the moment because a lot of players (primarily those using Falcon/Decimator 2-3 ship net lists) simply weren't prepared to face it.

It's main strengths are ease of use (360 fire arc) and attrition (high hit points, reliable damage output), both which are strong against the aforementioned 2-3 ships builds but can still be easily overcome. It has a metric crapton of exploitable weaknesses (see https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/189150-4-tlt-counters-and-tech-to-use/ for details).

It won't take long for it to be found out, accounted for and effectively neutered by savvy players. And when it is, TLT Y-Wings will be seen more often as good utility ships to fill out a list rather than the backbone of a list in their own right.

And that is the spot where the Y-Wing has its rightfull place, a serious workhorse that is reliable, but not really special. Of the nationals that have been won by TLTs only the first had the all out spam in the pole position. The second one was a healthy mix of ships supported by one or two I think.

The difference being TLT spam has won two nationals while fortress builds haven't.

Meh, people will adapt.

The clamoring for changing the game because a new list is currently dominant is getting stale.

Swarms kill Fat Han, Fat Han kills Arc-Dodgers (Phantoms), Arc-Dodgers (Phantoms) kill Swarms.

Treat TLT as a Fat Han list for the purposes of above statement.

It's not a definitive rule, but it works for most cases.

1.) Swarm vs. Fat Han is a coin flip.

2.) Fat Han does kill arc dodgers.

3.) Fat turrets are the best arc dodgers in the game. Not only because of large ship boost and high PS, but also because of its obnoxious maneuver dial (better than a Firespray's) and the main thing: the fact that it always has a shot with its turret. Soontir can dodge arcs all day but since he actually has to face what he's attacking that puts a damper on his arc dodging capability should you want to actually shoot with him. So fat Han can just 4 straight past things to dodge their arcs while also still getting a shot. Han doesn't have to sacrifice offense and can always pick the best defensive maneuver.

4.) Since turrets kill arc dodgers, and fat turrets are the best arc dodgers, you're best off using your own turret to kill their turret. This is why previous to TLT the meta was 100% fat Turretwing. Now that we have TLT, we can bring the 8 attack firepower of the swarm (!) down upon fat turrets with reliability of a turret. And what counters TLT peace be upon him? That's right, traditional lists that can bring massed firepower down upon Y-Wings. Y-Wings that even with green 3 speeds are leagues easier to get in arc than your average fat turret.

Why do we play this game anyway? Can't we just look at two lists, decide which is better, and save the whole hassle of setting up and rolling dice?

It's still early days. However, IF 4xTLT lists turn out to be too common a squad choice, the rule change needed to tone them down would be as simple as the Phantom rule change:

Change the definition of secondary weapons to omit turrets: Get your range bonus die back.

Alex Davey has said, in the S&V interview, that he's keeping an eye on them.

(I checked through the TLT threads a thoroughly as could be expected to before posting. Apologies if this is a repeat.)

Edit: Actually this would help Ion turrets too much. Blaster could use it though.

Autoblaster Turrets... Dammit. Kavil would be amazeballz!

Game design must be really hard.

I now want Kavil with Aggromech, Opportunist, Autoblaster Turret with range 1 modifier.

Telling you, Autoblaster covering the TLT's is better.

It is early, that is true. But they've amassed a pretty notorious reputation in just a matter of weeks and it seems like it's more than just a few drops in the bucket voicing their concerns about it. Now could the whole thing still be a knee-jerk reaction? Possibly. Or maybe there is a good reason for the outcry. Time will tell I guess.

This isn't coming from someone who is irked they got spanked by them or can't find a way to deal with them and is now running in panic mode. It's coming from someone who has seen them in action on both sides of the table and found them to be incredibly dull and cheesy (and yes, more autopilot than anything we've seen to date). That's just my own personal opinion. They feel a bit like a cop out actually, whether or not that was the intent.

Well honestly st the moment it's you and maybe 3 other guys rather than a lot of people if i look at the threads. But that does not mean that its totally impossible you're right. I mean if the next 10 big tournaments were 7 TLT victories or something like that i lt would still be a relatively small sample but i'd be concerned then too.

What i believe though is that there are already good counters, just that people still shy away from using 3-6 resilient small ships instead of their trusted 2 ship list. I think that there are just a few aces tgat really will be worth their points against TLTs.

They either need to be ultra dodgy, like Soontir (and be lucky enough to not fail on green for at least a turn or two. Or they need to be super tanky and/or regen shields, like Corran or Poe with the appropriate equipment.

Except for that I believe that min/maxing hitpoints, firepower and defensive tokens is the way to beat TLTs. If you outdamage them or outtank them there is not much they can do. Therefore one of the hardes counters to TLTs that i can even think of is BBBBZ or BBBB with Fcs.

Midrange ships could also get more interesting since they have PS advantage over Thugs or Golds, but then again most skills don't justiy their price tag and to fly one less ship...

Okay it's only four people. My bad.

Alex Davy himself just said they are monitoring the situation, and, while he doesnt think they're too strong (or creaste as much of a NPE as Phantoms did), if TLTs turn out to be too powerfull there's ways they can adress the situation (see S&V podcast). Sounds like a fair assesment, no?

Which is exactly what they said about Fortress builds for instance.

The difference being TLT spam has won two nationals while fortress builds haven't.

And the very, very important part that is being missed is, at least with the Spanish Nationals, is that while 4 TLTs won, they did not dominate the top squads. I think there was only one other in the top squads. That is hardly indication that there is a problem.

And once the meta adapts (seriously, just look at the huge thread on what you can do against them), I would hope the complaints will die down.