My son played a 4x Thug TLT at a local tourney and tore through everyone, including my Regionals Winning list (the TLT ate my IG in two rounds).

So this is my list for dealing with those pesky TLT's.

BLACK ACE ASSAULT

99 Points

Black Sun Ace #1 Kihraxz
Predator Assault Missiles Glitterstim

Black Sun Ace #2 Kihraxz
Predator Assault Missiles Glitterstim

Black Sun Ace #3 Kihraxz
Predator Assault Missiles Glitterstim

It's a spam for spam list, but will also put up a fight against swarms and other lists designed to fight TLT. Since there aren't too many two-ship builds floating around at the moment, those Assault Missiles should pay for themselves.

Black squadron(ruthless)X as many as possible, followed by a named TIE. is my technique.

Also: Darth Landy: repeating the same arguments until everyone stops trying to reason with you isn't winning, it's what toddlers do. Chill, take a step back, enjoy the shift in meta, play the game. Woohsah.

I really generally laugh at the people who gets but hurt about 4Y TLT's. I can't tell you how ridiculously easy it is to counter that list. Range 1 out of primary arc. All you have to do. And most people will be flying lists with ships that are higher PS than all 2's. This is like the 4Y's w/ion. It can be annoying to tackle sometimes, but seriously, just focus fire one at a time. It's not that big an issue.

Now, to the dudes who put BTL-A4 upgrades on them. HAHA. That first round will be an absolute doozy to play against. 16 attacks. 16 possible damage. Know the only ship that it's going to demoralize right off the bat? A Decimator (boy that would be fun to watch). Run is fast and hard on 4Y TLT's, you will be happy after that. Take some damage, just don't get in range of all of them at the same time and you are good.

I really laugh at people who gives advice vs 4 TLT by saying go into out of arc range 1. Guess what? If there is 4 TLT, you can't be in Range 1 of all of them. You will get shot by the 3 others if the player is half decent.

I haven't played against TLTs yet but I enjoy being challenged. And when I find a list that beats them I'll be at the advantage when playing against them.

It's the same with any FOTM (flavor of the month) build or list in any type of game. It starts constistanly winning until somebody finds a counter, then that counter becomes the new FOTM.

It is frustrating, I agree. But for me, I'm frustrated that people have lack of initiative to come up with their own list and just jump on the bandwagon.

I haven't played against TLTs yet but I enjoy being challenged. And when I find a list that beats them I'll be at the advantage when playing against them.

It's the same with any FOTM (flavor of the month) build or list in any type of game. It starts constistanly winning until somebody finds a counter, then that counter becomes the new FOTM.

It is frustrating, I agree. But for me, I'm frustrated that people have lack of initiative to come up with their own list and just jump on the bandwagon.

I just thought of something unrelated but quite hilarious.

Wildhorn's Avatar = biggest source of contention in the forums at the minute. Wish i could switch to that.

Also re: FOTM. With Y-wing TLTs as soon as people saw TLT's it wasn't hard to think of Y-wing spam.

Man, I spammed Y-wings (with ion cannons) before they were cool!

Atomic -s bang on the money, some combos are just naturally easy to think of.

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

So how did you arrive to the conclusion that its not unbalanced? What was your thought process? I'm curious because you act like it's a given fact.

1. It can only do 2 damage a turn, consistently yes, but only 2 damage a turn.

2. It's 6 points, and has a blind spot.

3. Y-wings aren't exactly the hardest ships to destroy, and they aren't very maneuverable, so you can easily exploit said blind spot.

The TLT is balanced on a Y-wing, you just need to know what how to counter it (and there are plenty of ways as demonstrated by the rather large thread with a similar name.)

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

Y-wings have had no less than 4 buffs recently.

Unhinged astros, BTLA4, Bomb loadouts, TLTs.

As someone who loves Y-wings I wasn't asking for any buffs, but to be fair we know that some x-wing lovers felt the same over the X-wing.

Personally I don't see the TLT as a big deal in terms of balance, but I do see it as a game changer. One that may be adapted to and beaten.

I wasn't asking for a buff either though I'm pleased with this, and it will definitely put Ys back into competitive play.

First, I'd like to point out your username: there's gotta be some bias there.

Secondly, the "blind spot" argument is technically true, yes. However, exploiting it is something that is much easier said then done -- especially when there are four of them to deal with. And Y-Wings don't really need to be that maneuverable to get an enemy ship out of range 1 territory, either.

Tough lists are fine. Challenges are good. Not disputing that at all. But 4xTLTs is almost like X-Wing with training wheels since so little thinking is involved.

Actually, despite my name, I don't fly as Ys as much as I fly As and Defenders. I prefer flying the "sub-par" ships.

That said, I think you're insulting the intelligence of people who fly 4Y TLT lists. Keeping the bubbles minimized isn't that easy. Squints will tear these things apart, especially Jax.

1. It can only do 2 damage a turn, consistently yes, but only 2 damage a turn.

2. It's 6 points, and has a blind spot.

3. Y-wings aren't exactly the hardest ships to destroy, and they aren't very maneuverable, so you can easily exploit said blind spot.

The TLT is balanced on a Y-wing, you just need to know what how to counter it (and there are plenty of ways as demonstrated by the rather large thread with a similar name.)

1. you do realize that 2 damage is quite alot,yes? most weapons have <2 expected hits (for reference: a 3dice attack with focus has 2.25 expected hits vs 0agility). To be fair, so do 2TLTs against high agility targets, but what makes them unique is their powerfull ability to strip multiple tokens.

2. So you think it is costed correctly at 6pts? Fair point, but there are people who disagree and lean towards 7 or 8 pts.

3. Fair point, but i think thats a common misperception: If there's 4 TLT the blind spot isnt easy to exploit at all. In fact, it's usually not physically possible to be in multiple blind spots if the 4TLT players spreads out a bit. And by now there's quite a number of games that serve as a reference point that it can be done, especially if you run with unhinged astromech. This is completely different from the old PWT meta, where you had to chase one big guy.

1/3: High PS ships and maneuverable ships will be able to rip apart Ys, Squints and Phantoms (particularly Jax, and named Phantoms) can easily tear them up if you focus fire. Jax can get into the bubbles and deny Focii. Asteroids/Debris are going to be your friends. Fly around, disengage, force him/her onto your turf. I'm not saying it's easy, but if games were easy, we wouldn't enjoy them

2: Of course that is more opinion, I think it's costed fine in the 6/7 pt. area.

EDIT: I'd just like to point out that I probably won't ever fly this list, I just don't think it's OP or gamebreaking

You will get shot by the 3 others if the player is half decent.

Which has been covered about a dozen times and proven not to be that big of a deal each time.

@CaineHoA: Good points. It's something else I intended to mention. A few montgs ago, I brought dual Aggressors to game night and faced Tarn Mison accompanied by the 2 of the cheapest YT-2400s, each with HLC. My opponent was flying his list "just cause he could" and I was still working on my tournament list. I cleaned up quickly, as one would expect. I don't think the game was really fun for either of us, but that's not to say dual Aggressors should be banned. Instead it means we should have discussed what we were hoping for that evening before setting up squads*. I think that may be the kind of thing the OP was talking about.

*(In reality, my opponent wanted to test it against a meta squad to see how it would go but didn't really expect to win.)

I agree that the lack of communication might be one of the main reasons this happens. You can always find a way to get "even" matchups if you want to. However its not always a given that you talk to potential players to much before meeting for a game. So to some degree it is a question of what the game allows you to do.

What I like to do is prepare a Timmy, Johnny, and Spike list and let my opponent choose one. (without telling them what the lists actually are)

Timmy list is mostly theme and craziness. Jan Ors with Kyle crew because Dark Forces. 2X2Y because Yavin. Not strong but hopefully fun.

Johnny is playing on ability interactions. Nera with deadeye, recon spec, and Adv Torps with EM. Hobbie and Dutch. Interesting and useful but not necessarily optimal.

Spike just wants to win dammit. Optimized bro-bots, TLT Spam, 4BZ.

Timmy is not likely to enjoy a game against Spike. Gotta make sure both sides are going into a game with similar expectations. Tourneys are (probably) wall-to-wall Spike.

My son played a 4x Thug TLT at a local tourney and tore through everyone, including my Regionals Winning list (the TLT ate my IG in two rounds).

So this is my list for dealing with those pesky TLT's.

BLACK ACE ASSAULT

99 Points

Black Sun Ace #1 Kihraxz

Predator Assault Missiles Glitterstim

Black Sun Ace #2 Kihraxz

Predator Assault Missiles Glitterstim

Black Sun Ace #3 Kihraxz

Predator Assault Missiles Glitterstim

It's a spam for spam list, but will also put up a fight against swarms and other lists designed to fight TLT. Since there aren't too many two-ship builds floating around at the moment, those Assault Missiles should pay for themselves.

Black squadron(ruthless)X as many as possible, followed by a named TIE. is my technique.

As you know i dont think 4Y TLT is overpowered, but i don't see those 2 lists as counters either.

The Aces will probably kill one Y between Assault missiles and wound a few others. Then you lose one Kihraxz. And then you're done its probably some 10 HP vs 15 and he reliably kills a ship per turn while you dont. If the Ys stay in R1 formation. Which i would not do against that list. I would go for a broader front. Arcs still overlap a lot so they will get good shots on you. I think the Kihraxz is not bad against Y-Wings, just that the Assault missiles are not a very good counter to TLTs if you ask me. They dont have to fly formation like a Tie Swarm. No synergy between ships!

The same problem applies to the Black squadrons with Ruthlessness. They can scatter a bit and fire 2 TLTs at one ship instead of 4 per round since you will have what? 6 Ships? I am not at all convinced of this. I think a simple Howlrunner swarm has a better shot here. also if you go to R1 with more than one TIE you will damage your own ships XD Thats not a good plan

But, but... ruthless!

"I don't get it, where is this TLT thing everyone keeps talking about?"

And YES, that is Super Dash, and NO, he wasn't actually able to shoot at the Y behind him, obviously.
He was actually taking a range 3 shot at the Aggressor in that particular list, while avoiding the TLT picking him apart.

But, but... ruthless!

No! Try Calculation instead on a bunch of BSP's. Roll, reroll thanks to Howlrunner, strip shields, then crit them to death.

... Actually that sounds pretty good.

... Actually that sounds pretty good.

Throw some defense on Howlrunner so she won't be an easy target and you can have 5 BSP's.

It's an expensive list though, requiring 5 StarVipers.

(Or eBaying).

You might also consider four GSP's with Autothrusters, PTL, Outmaneuver and the Refit. Get them from the side, their attack is hampered, attack with focus and PtL and they have no defense so what you hit sticks.

And you shoot first and move last.

They might not be strong lists against everything, but they are annoying to take down to say the least.

But, but... ruthless!

No! Try Calculation instead on a bunch of BSP's. Roll, reroll thanks to Howlrunner, strip shields, then crit them to death.

Etahn and a bunch of headhunters could be an option for Rebels.

haven't read all the posts in this thread, but ...

1) TLTx4 feels to me to be nerf-bat worthy. that's my intuition, and I'm curious to see if the empirical data confirms it. like the phantom before it, it makes it so that every list I'm building right now has to consider "how does this deal with TLTx4 spam?" yes, four auto-thrusting Interceptors will normally crush a TLTx4 list, just like a 97/98 point ChiraFel list crushed the old Phantom meta. when I build lists for tournament play, I'm designing for coverage over significant percentage of the Rock-Paper-Scissors meta, and TLTx4 mucks that up for me.

2) assuming the data plays out in concordance with my intuition, my current thoughts on a"nerf" is to put the "Twin" into TLT: max of two TLTs per list!

hmms. I'd need to buy a starviper.

I could custom paint it...

hmms. I'd need to buy a starviper.

I could custom paint it...

Or put it into a cocoon and hope it becomes a prettier butterfly?

Hmm you're right, I could re-position it's wings.

haven't read all the posts in this thread, but ...

1) TLTx4 feels to me to be nerf-bat worthy. that's my intuition, and I'm curious to see if the empirical data confirms it. like the phantom before it, it makes it so that every list I'm building right now has to consider "how does this deal with TLTx4 spam?" yes, four auto-thrusting Interceptors will normally crush a TLTx4 list, just like a 97/98 point ChiraFel list crushed the old Phantom meta. when I build lists for tournament play, I'm designing for coverage over significant percentage of the Rock-Paper-Scissors meta, and TLTx4 mucks that up for me.

2) assuming the data plays out in concordance with my intuition, my current thoughts on a"nerf" is to put the "Twin" into TLT: max of two TLTs per list!

I think if the Y player sees a bunch of boosters across the table they'd just choose the maneuvers that move them the most to make it more difficult for interceptors to stay in the blind spots. The interceptors still have the odds, but the Ys will still have lots of shots and could wear them down eventually.

I think two very serious things that people should take away from this are:

1. Don't blame the playtesters - especially right there in the subject line. Seriously, just don't. Not only do (most of) you not know the process, but it's making rather huge assumptions that
A. testers agree on everything (because the community clearly does, right?
B. that they are always listened to, and

C. changes don't occasionally get made for reasons even the testers involved aren't always privy to.

2. In case people aren't paying attention, every single wave ever has produced ships/lists that an awful lot of people screamed were OP, and an awful lot of people complained were boring to fly as/against, or both. And inevitably what happens is that either counters come out for it, lists adapt to better balance against it, people realize over time a lot of it was so much sound and fury, or a combination of all of those things.

Does nobody remember when the Defender got announced? Seriously? I do. Talk about TEH SKY IZ FALLING. A white K-turn? Game over, man. Game over - and the Empire just won. GGWP. Anyone want to buy my collection, only $400? No, I don't want to break it up and sell it individually - YES, I know I could sell it for more if I broke it up, I don't want to DO that, WHY are we still arguing about this - you have no intention of buying it from me either way.

Where was I?

Oh yeah, lot of OP, tournament-winning Defender builds running rampant over everybody, is there? No? Nobody? Everyone looked at it, tried it, collectively went "eh, it's kind of pricey, actually," and left it mostly sitting in storage and went to go find some OTHER ship to go complain about, instead. I start to think sometimes that much of the community must be fans of Fox News, because the lack of pattern recognition is occasionally astounding.

Look, if it's boring to fly as, don't fly it. If it's boring to fly against, well, "if you're bored then you're boring," as someone once said. It's strong - I've heard it described by someone whose opinion I trust as "meta-defining," in fact. But it is the nature of the meta to be defined and redefined for as long as it exists, so something has to be redefining it at any given moment.

This may be its moment in the sun. Only time will tell whether it stays there. If it does, past experience should tell us that there's some ship, or upgrade waiting in the wings to ruin its day and give it a reality check of its own.

^^ voice of reason.

I want to add that In epic Grays escorted with Daggers will be a thing when I go Rebel. Greys with TLT(and maybe one autoblaster, probably not) Daggers with flachette or HLC or Mangler - depends on my mood, likely flechette as i'd want a GR75 loaded for jamming/slicing.