People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

Actually i also enjoy seeing Y-Wings arguably at the top of the meta. The ship always appealed to me and for a good while it was seriously underpowered. And suddenly its some of the best 25 points per ship you can spend.

I don't inderstand the whining. They are beatable. And the OP even says it. He even says you have to adapt to them. Well then I guess we should do that.

I don't understand the "boring list" stigma either. I mean exactly 100% of the competitive list have been qualified as "boring" to play with or against on this forum. Literally! Just a few examples:

Tie Swarm -> boring

BBBBZ -> boring

Phantoms -> boring and overpowered before nerf

Fat Turrets plus escort -> boring and op

Brobots -> boring and op

Y-wings with TLT -> yeah you name it....

Guys if you really think playing against or withall these and many more lists is boring and/or frustrating, please feel free to stop playing X-Wing.

I've not heard most of those lists described as boring. Could you honestly say that you would be interested in watching a quad TLT mirror match on twitch? Would be as exciting as a slo-mo replay of a coin flip.

Are you joking? All of those lists have been entitled as boring, bland and most also as overpowered. Just search it, you will see.

I have actually seen double pancake finals and pretty much identical lists in finals. If TLTs are boring that was probably too. I mean 4 TLT vs 4 TLT sounds really random but against anything else, it's actually very interesting to watch.

It amazes me how easy people think it is ships can just zip into range 1 of a target and stay that way like a magnet all game.

If you've got higher PS, a decent dial and any kind of movement shenanigans it's really not that difficult at all.

Plus, you don't need to do it all game - only until the target is dead.

The fact is (and this point actually IS a fact) that as Vorpal pointed out above, the range one blind spot is a big drawback for TLT lists. You don't need to exploit multiple blind spots at the same time; you don't need to exploit them every turn; you don't need to exploit them with the same ship every turn.

But whenever just ONE of your ships exploits a TLT carrier's blind spot, then you're reducing the overall efficiency of the TLT list - in pretty much exactly the same way as you would be by arc dodging a ship with a regular front primary arc.

This point has been made many times, in many ways, in many threads, by many people. Ithe seems like I should probably just start cutting and pasting my version of this.

And then literally the next post is "zomg but you cannot dodge all the doughnut holes at once argle bargle".

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

Actually i also enjoy seeing Y-Wings arguably at the top of the meta. The ship always appealed to me and for a good while it was seriously underpowered. And suddenly its some of the best 25 points per ship you can spend.

I don't inderstand the whining. They are beatable. And the OP even says it. He even says you have to adapt to them. Well then I guess we should do that.

I don't understand the "boring list" stigma either. I mean exactly 100% of the competitive list have been qualified as "boring" to play with or against on this forum. Literally! Just a few examples:

Tie Swarm -> boring

BBBBZ -> boring

Phantoms -> boring and overpowered before nerf

Fat Turrets plus escort -> boring and op

Brobots -> boring and op

Y-wings with TLT -> yeah you name it....

Guys if you really think playing against or withall these and many more lists is boring and/or frustrating, please feel free to stop playing X-Wing.

Here's the thing:

TIE Swarm -> Not boring. Why? Because you still have to be on your toes. You have to make sure you don't bump anything and you also have to keep targets in your arc. It actually takes a very high skill to fly this build effectively.

BBBBZ -> More forgiving than above, and certainly more durable, but you still have to plan accordingly to keep your guns pointed at the enemy and maybe try and use that Z to block with. It's not a no-brainer build by any means.

Phantoms -> Now you're just tossing around the word "boring" like candy without any rhyme or reason. Overpowered? Definitely. But the entire cloaking mechanic and never knowing where these things would end up is far from "boring".

Fat Turrets -> Maybe boring if every build we saw was exactly the same, but they aren't. There are many variations on these builds, and it still takes some skill to fly the large ships. They have a tendency to hit obstacles more often and they are much easier to block and take actions away from.

Brobots -> Okay, these might be dipping their toes in "boring" waters, mainly because they come in pairs and usually have the same upgrades on each with the same pilot skills. But again, larger ships are more awkward to fly, and they can do a maneuver that most ships can't.

The fact is, Y-Wings with TLTs is hands down, by far, the most boring build we've seen to date. Sure, there have been one or two variations on the spam list out there, but the scum list is the dominant one that most people are going with. You have four ships that are exactly the same with the exact same upgrade. You can make a ton of mistakes and it doesn't really matter a whole lot because chances are, you'll still get to shoot anyway. It's the definition of an autopilot list if there ever was one.

Can it be beat? Of course. Any list can. That's not the point here.

The point is, X-Wing is supposed to be a tactical game all about dogfighting, maneuvering, and positioning, but these TLT builds kind of throw that out the window. And no list prior actually put people on guilt trips when using them more than these do. I mean, when players show up at tournaments without bringing the 4 TLT list because they don't want to be "that guy", that should tell you right there that this is not just another case of "the sky is falling". They're a good idea gone bad, and are having a major negative impact on the game more than anything ever did.

You don't understand. I do not call these builds boring. People have been bored by their dominance on certain points of the meta i guess. Just look it up you will probably find the threads and posts if you dig deep enough. I can remember most of these whines though.

I don't find Phantoms or Brobots boring at all for instance. I played them a lot too...

But where you are totally wrong is that TLT ships kill the maneuvering game. They have to prevent or deny their enemy certain spots (their R1 mostly) and ideally they take on enemies one by one, while opposing ships need to get to R1 and concentrate forepower in a way that makes Y-Wings crumble instead of feeding the Y-Wings one ship after another. There is a whole lot of tactical gaming and maneuvering going on in these games, that's for sure.

After all if you were right the luckiest TLT player would win the tournament. I still think it's rather the most skilled player (TLT or not) paired with a portion of luck that you can't eliminate in a dice game!

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

Actually i also enjoy seeing Y-Wings arguably at the top of the meta. The ship always appealed to me and for a good while it was seriously underpowered. And suddenly its some of the best 25 points per ship you can spend.

I don't inderstand the whining. They are beatable. And the OP even says it. He even says you have to adapt to them. Well then I guess we should do that.

I don't understand the "boring list" stigma either. I mean exactly 100% of the competitive list have been qualified as "boring" to play with or against on this forum. Literally! Just a few examples:

Tie Swarm -> boring

BBBBZ -> boring

Phantoms -> boring and overpowered before nerf

Fat Turrets plus escort -> boring and op

Brobots -> boring and op

Y-wings with TLT -> yeah you name it....

Guys if you really think playing against or withall these and many more lists is boring and/or frustrating, please feel free to stop playing X-Wing.

Here's the thing:

TIE Swarm -> Not boring. Why? Because you still have to be on your toes. You have to make sure you don't bump anything and you also have to keep targets in your arc. It actually takes a very high skill to fly this build effectively.

BBBBZ -> More forgiving than above, and certainly more durable, but you still have to plan accordingly to keep your guns pointed at the enemy and maybe try and use that Z to block with. It's not a no-brainer build by any means.

Phantoms -> Now you're just tossing around the word "boring" like candy without any rhyme or reason. Overpowered? Definitely. But the entire cloaking mechanic and never knowing where these things would end up is far from "boring".

Fat Turrets -> Maybe boring if every build we saw was exactly the same, but they aren't. There are many variations on these builds, and it still takes some skill to fly the large ships. They have a tendency to hit obstacles more often and they are much easier to block and take actions away from.

Brobots -> Okay, these might be dipping their toes in "boring" waters, mainly because they come in pairs and usually have the same upgrades on each with the same pilot skills. But again, larger ships are more awkward to fly, and they can do a maneuver that most ships can't.

The fact is, Y-Wings with TLTs is hands down, by far, the most boring build we've seen to date. Sure, there have been one or two variations on the spam list out there, but the scum list is the dominant one that most people are going with. You have four ships that are exactly the same with the exact same upgrade. You can make a ton of mistakes and it doesn't really matter a whole lot because chances are, you'll still get to shoot anyway. It's the definition of an autopilot list if there ever was one.

Can it be beat? Of course. Any list can. That's not the point here.

The point is, X-Wing is supposed to be a tactical game all about dogfighting, maneuvering, and positioning, but these TLT builds kind of throw that out the window. And no list prior actually put people on guilt trips when using them more than these do. I mean, when players show up at tournaments without bringing the 4 TLT list because they don't want to be "that guy", that should tell you right there that this is not just another case of "the sky is falling". They're a good idea gone bad, and are having a major negative impact on the game more than anything ever did.

You don't understand. I do not call these builds boring. People have been bored by their dominance on certain points of the meta i guess. Just look it up you will probably find the threads and posts if you dig deep enough. I can remember most of these whines though.

I don't find Phantoms or Brobots boring at all for instance. I played them a lot too...

But where you are totally wrong is that TLT ships kill the maneuvering game. They have to prevent or deny their enemy certain spots (their R1 mostly) and ideally they take on enemies one by one, while opposing ships need to get to R1 and concentrate forepower in a way that makes Y-Wings crumble instead of feeding the Y-Wings one ship after another. There is a whole lot of tactical gaming and maneuvering going on in these games, that's for sure.

After all if you were right the luckiest TLT player would win the tournament. I still think it's rather the most skilled player (TLT or not) paired with a portion of luck that you can't eliminate in a dice game!

Excellent points. in fact, since TLT lists are SUCH low variance, maneuvering by BOTH players becomes the most important factor in the outcome.

The TLT player needs to prevent from being blocked AND ensure his donuts arent being occupied

The opponent wants to achieve the opposite.

I'll never say a TLT list is an 'autopilot' list because i've seen them flown very well.

Moreover, though, I'm not interested in spending my time and energy coming up with and explaining reasons that TLT spam is difficult to face.

Yeah.

Even if we accept that the R1 donut is hard to expolite (which I don't) then the discussion has no place to go. Unless the discussion will revolve around what FFG will do to nerf the TLT.

Saying that the R1 donut can't be or is too hard to expolite is worthless, because you are accepting defeat before the first die is rolled. I have no intention of simply agreeing to disagree with people like that.

To be quite frank, if I'm flying a high PS A-Wing, Interceptor w/AT, T-70, ect... and I can't get in and keep a single Y-Wing at range one, then I'm doing something wrong, and anyone who says such a thing is too hard, is quite simply bad at this game.

Pretty much every argument about why they can't be beat is looking at the game in a vacuum and is both assuming either the Y-Wing player is vastly more skilled, or else the only thing the Y-Wing player needs to do is roll dice. Both of which are amazingly flawed assumptions to make.

But thats not what people are saying at all. Multiple posters have stated repeatedly that quad TLT is beatable. Heck, you can almost hard counter it with AT+SJ brobots. The question is how much it takes to get there. On the other side i see but a handful people saying 4TLT requires no skill to play, i mainly see subjective differences in how much 'skill' (however you define it) it takes. And is that not a fair discussion to have?

And your argument about the donut hole seems counter intuitve to actual results. If it was so easy to exploit this list wouldnt be so successfull right now, even when going up against Nationals-level players.

Heck, we wouldnt be having three topics about this on the first page if it wasnt an issue, right?

It kind of reminds me of the old how to counter Phantoms discussion, where there was always a group of people claiming you just need to play better against them and they're not unbalanced. Or bring a hard counter. See a pattern here?

I don't even think they need a hard counter.

I think hard counters certainly exist, but they are not the perfect fighters people make out.

If it was so easy to exploit this list wouldnt be so successfull right now, even when going up against Nationals-level players.

It's success is highly debateable. It's doing well right now, and it's not 4 TLT lists mostly either, but it's fairly easy to argue that one if not the main reason it's doing well is because it's so new and people haven't adapted to it yet.

Also how easy it is to fly is another completely debatable statement.

The point is, they aren't unbeatable despite what the OP said, they don't even seem that hard to beat. It's not like you have to fly something that can't compete against any other list.

TLTs being insinuated as even close to pre-errata phantom levels of power? oh man, now there's a good laugh

the thus far "actual results" have been a single nationals, and then the Nova Open which had some 4 Whispers with 3 different decimators and Palpatine before the first TLT snuck into 7th at swiss or something

again, the range 1 doughnut hole being easy to exploit != you will always exploit it. There are, as it turns out, at least two people playing in every game and they'll be doing everything in their power to exploit each others' weaknesses and their own strengths. If nationals is held to a high standard and TLTs at least appear there, then it probably implies that the nationals players are playing their TLTs pretty dang well.

the ease of exploitation comes from the very simple fact that Y-wings are slow as ****, can't boost/roll, and will be caught without issue on an open field. What stops that (mainly obstacles) can only be enabled by flying the list well.

there is no free choice of decloak at ps 9, there is no ship here that occupies 3 different positioning simultaneously, no 4/4 profile with defensive focus and offensive TL even after being blocked; nothing of the sort. It's just Y-wings with a range 2-3 turret.

if doing well competitively was the only benchmark for being anywhere near pre-errata phantom, then PWTs wouldn't even exist anymore

Absolutely fickle, we had a huge timespan of Phantom dominance and THAT was annoying, but 4TLT Y-Wings won one or two nationals and 1TLT Y plus one TLT Hwk were in Nova opens winning list.

In Spanish nationals the winner lost a game against BBBBZ but wasnt eliminated because his opponent had not marked its asteroids before the tournament.

The Nova Open was a tournament pretty much dominated by Palpatine lists if we watch closer, just that a rebel swarm with 2 TLT won... This winning list qualified in Swiss as 16th and last place.

Guess what! There was not even a 4Y TLT list in the top 16 in Nova Open!

Is THAT the dominance that we are talking about? Is everyone flying 4TLTs? HELL NO!

So please, please stop this nonsense!

the ease of exploitation comes from the very simple fact that Y-wings are slow as ****, can't boost/roll, and will be caught without issue on an open field. What stops that (mainly obstacles) can only be enabled by flying the list well...

...and don't forget, if you're fielding massed (x4) TLTs, you're invariably commiting yourself to flying at PS2.

Pretty much everything in the game bar other low level generics is going to move after you do (and be free to respond to where you move) and shoot before you do.

TLTs being insinuated as even close to pre-errata phantom levels of power? oh man, now there's a good laugh

the thus far "actual results" have been a single nationals, and then the Nova Open which had some 4 Whispers with 3 different decimators and Palpatine before the first TLT snuck into 7th at swiss or something

again, the range 1 doughnut hole being easy to exploit != you will always exploit it. There are, as it turns out, at least two people playing in every game and they'll be doing everything in their power to exploit each others' weaknesses and their own strengths. If nationals is held to a high standard and TLTs at least appear there, then it probably implies that the nationals players are playing their TLTs pretty dang well.

the ease of exploitation comes from the very simple fact that Y-wings are slow as ****, can't boost/roll, and will be caught without issue on an open field. What stops that (mainly obstacles) can only be enabled by flying the list well.

there is no free choice of decloak at ps 9, there is no ship here that occupies 3 different positioning simultaneously, no 4/4 profile with defensive focus and offensive TL even after being blocked; nothing of the sort. It's just Y-wings with a range 2-3 turret.

if doing well competitively was the only benchmark for being anywhere near pre-errata phantom, then PWTs wouldn't even exist anymore

I agree, TLT will never reach old Phantom power levels. It has more soft counters and that is good, but that doesnt mean it's necessarily balanced. As i've said a few times now, it should probably have been costed slightly higher and then it wouldnt be the #1 topic right now.

Regarding Phantoms: Maybe my previous post wasnt clear enough:

The pattern of the discussion is similar, i didnt say TLT is similar to Phantoms.

Or in tabloid-speak: For every guy saying Phantom was OP there was one guy saying you just need to play better. The same seems to be happening with TLTs now. Is that easy enough to understand?

playing TLTs sometimes feels like:

but also sometimes like you're shooting at this:

Unfortunately, Y-Wings also dodge shots like this

What people still don't seem to realize is that the complaints have very little to do with it being a tough list. Nobody is expecting a list to be easy to take down, but the 4 TLT list doesn't just practically fly itself, it completely and utterly hoses certain ships (specifically low agility ones).

So it's all well and good to say, "it's early and maybe people just haven't found the counter to it yet", but some ships don't have that luxury and making them useless in competitive environments just isn't really good for the game on the whole.

the ease of exploitation comes from the very simple fact that Y-wings are slow as ****, can't boost/roll, and will be caught without issue on an open field. What stops that (mainly obstacles) can only be enabled by flying the list well...

...and don't forget, if you're fielding massed (x4) TLTs, you're invariably commiting yourself to flying at PS2.

Pretty much everything in the game bar other low level generics is going to move after you do (and be free to respond to where you move) and shoot before you do.

ouch, yeah

very essential point

nothing more infuriating than fat Han casually flinging himself out of your arcs because he has the luxury of out PSing everyone and their mom

Y-wings can afford no such thing

I agree, TLT will never reach old Phantom power levels. It has more soft counters and that is good, but that doesnt mean it's necessarily balanced. As i've said a few times now, it should probably have been costed slightly higher and then it wouldnt be the #1 topic right now.

Regarding Phantoms: Maybe my previous post wasnt clear enough:

The pattern of the discussion is similar, i didnt say TLT is similar to Phantoms.

Or in tabloid-speak: For every guy saying Phantom was OP there was one guy saying you just need to play better. The same seems to be happening with TLTs now. Is that easy enough to understand?

the problem there is that the pattern of discussion would be the same regardless of how overpowered or not TLT is

how else is one supposed to communicate that something is not OP other than showing off its counters?

talking about how X isn't OP doesn't automatically mean X is potentially OP just because certain people wrong in a single instance

Useless is a pretty strong description. Which ships are made useless by TLTs?

How does a 4xTLT ship fly itself? People have produced pages of descriptions of the different challenges the 4xTLT player has to overcome to get the most out of its abilities. Are you not reading them? Do you not agree? Why?

What people still don't seem to realize is that the complaints have very little to do with it being a tough list. Nobody is expecting a list to be easy to take down, but the 4 TLT list doesn't just practically fly itself, it completely and utterly hoses certain ships (specifically low agility ones).

So, basically you're now wanting to narrow the focus of this complaint thread (and that's what this is; a complaint thread) to TLT Y-Wings being very effective against a very specifc range of opponents.

Shall we just go ahead and continue to narrow it down to "My Fat Han Can't Beat TLT Y-Wings, OMG OP PLZ NERF NAOW", which is surely the direction where the thread is inevitably headed?

There's plenty of other lists in the game that can "completely and utterly hose lower agility ships" as well, by the way. Why are we not complaining about those lists as well, exactly?

What people still don't seem to realize is that the complaints have very little to do with it being a tough list. Nobody is expecting a list to be easy to take down, but the 4 TLT list doesn't just practically fly itself, it completely and utterly hoses certain ships (specifically low agility ones).

So, basically you're now wanting to narrow the focus of this complaint thread (and that's what this is; a complaint thread) to TLT Y-Wings being very effective against a very specifc range of opponents.

Shall we just go ahead and continue to narrow it down to "My Fat Han Can't Beat TLT Y-Wings, OMG OP PLZ NERF NAOW", which is surely the direction where the thread is inevitably headed?

There's plenty of other lists in the game that can "completely and utterly hose lower agility ships" as well, by the way. Why are we not complaining about those lists as well, exactly?

Well since we are throwing around assumptions here, I'll drop the TLT debate so you can keep playing your precious 4 TLT list.

What people still don't seem to realize is that the complaints have very little to do with it being a tough list. Nobody is expecting a list to be easy to take down, but the 4 TLT list doesn't just practically fly itself, it completely and utterly hoses certain ships (specifically low agility ones).

So it's all well and good to say, "it's early and maybe people just haven't found the counter to it yet", but some ships don't have that luxury and making them useless in competitive environments just isn't really good for the game on the whole.

If low-agility ships are useless competitively, why did Decimators do so well at the NOVA open?

What people still don't seem to realize is that the complaints have very little to do with it being a tough list. Nobody is expecting a list to be easy to take down, but the 4 TLT list doesn't just practically fly itself, it completely and utterly hoses certain ships (specifically low agility ones).

So it's all well and good to say, "it's early and maybe people just haven't found the counter to it yet", but some ships don't have that luxury and making them useless in competitive environments just isn't really good for the game on the whole.

But fact is also that the ships TLT hoses are:

Large PWTs and other large agility 1 ships which have low evade dice and cost a ton of points. Which is probably the point why TLTs were even created! They have a hard time against TLTs and the reason probably is that FFG wanted them to take a smaller part of competitive play. There you also have your answer how they made it through playtesting! It was intentional.

Other Low agility Ships that are probably not hosed:

B-Wings can beat TLTs, no doubt about that, they can outdamage them and should they ever get close its absolute carnage.

Other Y-wing builds. Well Warthogs still have a decent chance, and TLT Warthogs have to be tried out yet i believe.

Shuttles. Yeah they suck anyway except Palpmobile, and he doesnt have to try and directly engage the Ys.

Punishers have not yet been explored but if they are not good its probably because of ordnance still not having had a proper fix and nothing else.

K-Wings. I am not yet convinced that they are a lot worse than Ys with TLTs and Recon, and Doni is pretty **** good anyway.

For the rest, some expensive 1 agility small ships like Farlander for example took a hit. Anything that costs a lot and is not resilient enough and cant outdamage the Ys will be eaten. But we are mainly talking about some named Bs here that didnt see competitive play anyway!

Do we need another thread on this or could we maybe use one of the other fifteen?

No!

We definitely need dozens more threads pointlessly going over this issue...like how the tlt keeps on shooting!

Speaking personally, I have no problem with people blaming play-testers when something turns out to be bone-headed. (I do it myself.)

I don't even have a problem when people assume something has turned out to be bone-headed with (relatively speaking) pretty much no experience to back it up.

I find it valuable, in fact, because (1) I can't read everything, (2) knowing whose posts are worth reading is thus useful to me.

Change is apparently very scary. I wonder what the big boogeyman from Wave 8 will be?

I fear we will hear all about a properly kitted out Ghost being able to attack twice in a turn. Once from it's 4 die primary and then at the end of the turn from an equipped turret....that might be a TLT.

Change is apparently very scary. I wonder what the big boogeyman from Wave 8 will be?

I fear we will hear all about a properly kitted out Ghost being able to attack twice in a turn. Once from it's 4 die primary and then at the end of the turn from an equipped turret....that might be a TLT.

Oh you bet your a$$ it will be.

60+ points, AGI 0, maxing out at PS7 with no EPT. I should hope that beast has something nasty in store. Lots of hit points only go so far.

As regards the tediousness of all of the TLT shots:

I played last night against 2 TLTs and 2 Ion cannons, all with BTL-A4. First round of shooting, he got to attack me 10 times with 4 ships. That was annoying. Han was in range 1, so most of his attacks went at my Miranda.

Instead of complaining about it, I killed one of his ships. Now, he only gets a max of 7 attacks -- But WAIT, I got behind one of his ships, so that one isn't shooting. Then I killed his other TLT. Now 4 attacks, but more likely 0 or 1, because I'm flying Han Solo with Engine Upgrade.

Man, was that boring. Wait, no it wasn't. I had to use my SKILL to prevent ships from shooting me multiple times. In the end, I lost, but it was close - had I remembered to use C-3PO on the primary shot from a Y-wing, instead of saving it for the Ion shot that never came because I was range 3, I would have not taken a crit and been just fine the rest of the game.