It amazes me how easy people think it is ships can just zip into range 1 of a target and stay that way like a magnet all game.

If you've got higher PS, a decent dial and any kind of movement shenanigans it's really not that difficult at all.

Plus, you don't need to do it all game - only until the target at range one is destroyed. Then you move on to the next.

The fact is (and this point actually IS a fact) that as Vorpal pointed out above, the range one blind spot is a big drawback for TLT lists. You don't need to exploit multiple blind spots at the same time; you don't need to exploit them every turn; you don't need to exploit them with the same ship every turn.

But whenever just ONE of your ships exploits a TLT carrier's blind spot, then you're reducing the overall efficiency of the TLT list - in pretty much exactly the same way as you would be by arc dodging a ship with a regular front primary arc.

If you can survive 2-3 turns of 6+ damage.

Why are you assuming no return fire?

It amazes me how easy people think it is ships can just zip into range 1 of a target and stay that way like a magnet all game.

Only need 2-3 turns of that range 1 bracket, and with slower ships with limited dials it isn't that hard.

If you can survive 2-3 turns of 6+ damage.

I was able to keep Talonbane Cobra with an Engine Upgrade at Range 1 of a TLT Y-Wing pretty well. Problem was I still got chewed up by the other one.... Well, that and I pounced on my opponent's B-Wing first rather than gang-tackling one of his Y's.

I really don't understand claims of this list being easy to fly

without great use of obstacles, even X-wings can race up to range 1 and utterly disembowel these slow, non-boost/roll small bases

then again, my experience with TLTs comes from repeatedly flying two Ks and a Y, so maybe I'm just crazy

but I can't help myself, they just look so awesome!

It amazes me how easy people think it is ships can just zip into range 1 of a target and stay that way like a magnet all game.

it amazes me how difficult people think it is to catch a Y-wing

seriously, if you can't catch a Y-wing in range one then one of two things are happening:

1.) you're flying B-wings (not even Y-wings, because BTL-A4s with ICT have no excuse)

2.) you're being outplayed, which just proves that TLT is a skill dependent list

and really, reason # 2 is why I (the resident hater of PWTs) have absolutely no **** problem with TLTs. If I lose to them, then it's almost certainly my own fault. If I lose to them, it's because my opponent was better able to arrange obstacles on the table and to foresee what impact they would have on the game (and, by extension, use them to block my ass from getting into the doughnut hole)

same **** goes for Dash, and I love me some dash , only Dash can cheat like a shameless bastard

It amazes me how easy people think it is ships can just zip into range 1 of a target and stay that way like a magnet all game.

If you've got higher PS, a decent dial and any kind of movement shenanigans it's really not that difficult at all.

Plus, you don't need to do it all game - only until the target is dead.

The fact is (and this point actually IS a fact) that as Vorpal pointed out above, the range one blind spot is a big drawback for TLT lists. You don't need to exploit multiple blind spots at the same time; you don't need to exploit them every turn; you don't need to exploit them with the same ship every turn.

But whenever just ONE of your ships exploits a TLT carrier's blind spot, then you're reducing the overall efficiency of the TLT list - in pretty much exactly the same way as you would be by arc dodging a ship with a regular front primary arc.

This point has been made many times, in many ways, in many threads, by many people. Ithe seems like I should probably just start cutting and pasting my version of this.

Sure, catching ONE Y-wing is easy. how do you catch all 4? A wise 4TLT player has adequate separation and coverage that each donut is covered by 3 other TLTs.

Sure, catching ONE Y-wing is easy. how do you catch all 4? A wise 4TLT player has adequate separation and coverage that each donut is covered by 3 other TLTs.

...and? Didn't Vorpal Sword literally JUST provide a counter argument to this hopelessly naïve ideal scenario above?

"the wise TLT player" can deploy their ships however they want. Group together, spread out, it's all the same to me. It's still all going to go south for them really quickly when I start moving my ships into range one, blocking them, stressing them, ionising them and/or focusing down the ships that still can actually fire while ignoring the ones who can't.

I really will never understand the "wise" or "good" player on the forum

he seems like some kind of jedi god that will perfectly counter everything you can throw against him

why is it that the "wise" or "good" player shows up playing only the list people think is op?

not to mention, the need for a "wise" or "good" player to counter some incredibly basic and easy to spot faults of TLTs really clashes with any claims of how easy they are to fly

why is it that the "wise" or "good" player shows up playing only the list people think is op?

Possibly because these things look so simple in a vacuum, when there's no pesky opposing player to get in the way by, you know, getting in the way. Or shooting back.

The best laid plans of mice and men, and all that. Which also never survive contact with the enemy.

Or the rolling of dice, for that matter.

Sure, catching ONE Y-wing is easy. how do you catch all 4?

Don't need to, just need to catch one, block him and focus fire on it. Once you destroy one, the rest of the list will start to suffer because a loss of a single ship in that list, is a bigger blow than just that one part.

Oh and also, there's no way you're going to avg 6+ damage over 2-3 turns, not with 3 TLT's firing. The best you can hope for is 3-4 damage per turn.

Which goes down to 2-3 after you kill a single Y-Wing.

Sure, catching ONE Y-wing is easy. how do you catch all 4? A wise 4TLT player has adequate separation and coverage that each donut is covered by 3 other TLTs.

This is one of those things that you say, without really using actual game experience. Vorpal has been trying to emphasize this point, but many are not getting it. To be able to concentrate your firepower like this, those 3 other ships are likely to have overlapping donut holes or at least one of them will be an outlier, which the other three will be unable to concentrate fire on.

why is it that the "wise" or "good" player shows up playing only the list people think is op?

Possibly because these things look so simple in a vacuum, when there's no pesky opposing player to get in the way by, you know, getting in the way. Or shooting back.

The best laid plans of mice and men, and all that. Which also never survive contact with the enemy.

Or the rolling of dice, for that matter.

oh god, you better believe it

I had the most frustrating tournament experience about a month ago, flying my triple TLT list

what happened was two games both had a whole round of TLTs whiffing 50% of the time against bloody B-wings and then a Shuttle

(in best (read: terrible) arnie accent):

Fickle Green Dice, meet fickle Reeed Dice.

I wonder how my orkish black squadron wing would do vs a TLT swarm (black squadron pilots with ruthless, someone else, ruthless). (shout WAAAAAGHHH and DAKKADAKKADAKKA whenever firing, fire even if whole group is in range 1).

It seems like we've arrived at a point in the discussion where one group of posters says its relatively easy to get into the TLT blind spot (or multiple) why the other group says it's not.

Since both opinions are mutually exclusive i suggest to just agree to disagree and move on, otherwise we're in for another few pages of circular discussion.

agreeing to disagree unfortunately implies that there is merit to both sides of the argument when there really isn't

simple fact of the matter: it is easy to get in range 1 of a slow, boost/roll-less TLT

it is up to the TLT player to ensure that this doesn't happen

to think otherwise would be to wrongfully attribute TLT's success to some apparent ease of using the card, instead of the players flying them. With that mindset, no one's ever going to try to learn to play against them; believing instead that the card is busted and nothing they can do will change that.

It seems like we've arrived at a point in the discussion where one group of posters says its relatively easy to get into the TLT blind spot (or multiple) why the other group says it's not.

Since both opinions are mutually exclusive i suggest to just agree to disagree and move on, otherwise we're in for another few pages of circular discussion.

I don't think saying you can get into Range 1 is unreasonable. The point is, when an enemy gets into Range 1, that means 2 things. Either it will be facing concentrated fire from the other three, which means they are spread out, which means they are less able to concentrate fire before hand. Which is a winning proposition for the opponent. Or, you are within multiple donut holes, which means they were able to concentrate fire before hand, and now has some issues.

And most likely, half those attacks will be unmodified. Have you rolled dice in this game?

this is not about how many hits you'll score. this is about the actual feat of rolling 24 dice per turn. Having to wait for it etc. Thats bad design. i can't believe how everybody sees my post as some sort of attack on their game or what ever. i love this game. i have ten of everything and ill never stop playing it. guess my english is too poor to make my point clear. sorry.

Do you have any idea how many people play wargames specifically because they like rolling lots of dice? This gameplay is a draw for those people!

And most likely, half those attacks will be unmodified. Have you rolled dice in this game?

this is not about how many hits you'll score. this is about the actual feat of rolling 24 dice per turn. Having to wait for it etc. Thats bad design. i can't believe how everybody sees my post as some sort of attack on their game or what ever. i love this game. i have ten of everything and ill never stop playing it. guess my english is too poor to make my point clear. sorry.

Do you have any idea how many people play wargames specifically because they like rolling lots of dice? This gameplay is a draw for those people!

oh god, so much this

playing TLTs sometimes feels like:

but also sometimes like you're shooting at this:

agreeing to disagree unfortunately implies that there is merit to both sides of the argument when there really isn't

simple fact of the matter: it is easy to get in range 1 of a slow, boost/roll-less TLT

it is up to the TLT player to ensure that this doesn't happen

to think otherwise would be to wrongfully attribute TLT's success to some apparent ease of using the card, instead of the players flying them. With that mindset, no one's ever going to try to learn to play against them; believing instead that the card is busted and nothing they can do will change that.

But thats going in circles yet again. For your understanding of the other side of the argument:

simple fact of the matter: Getting into range1 of the slow, boostless TLT Y often means you're taking return fire from 2-3 other TLTs. Not many ships can shrug that off.

Plus you're easier to block when chasing for r1(which is devastating for fragile ships) plus a lot of mobile ships are going to overshoot their target in the following rounds because they can't go 1fwd plus it becomes harder to predict which way these Ys are going to turn the closer you are and suddenly it's not that easy to stay in multiple donuts anymore (i'm sure others can think of more reasons). At the same time the 4Y player just picks maneuvers that get him as far away as possible. After playing this list at a large tournament my _personal_ opinion is that, while having a learning curve like many other lists, it's one of the easier lists to play well (Juggler link for those interested: http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=645.)

But most of all, i (again,personally) dont find it particularly interesting or challenging to play. It often feels like i'm just going through the motions and i cant imagine someone playing this for several months.

At the end of the day i dont see how the two sides can agree. And let's leave skill out of the discussion, i dont think many people would claim that 4TLT Y has particularily high skill requirements (neither did Han+3Z at the time, unlike Phantoms).

It seems like we've arrived at a point in the discussion where one group of posters says its relatively easy to get into the TLT blind spot (or multiple) why the other group says it's not.

One group says that TLT blind spots don't exist, and even if they do, then they're so difficult to exploit that they might as well not exist. The other group says that TLT blind spots do too exist, and whether or not they can be exploited depends on list building choices, game state, and player skill.

In my own games playing against TLT, I've been able to find and exploit those blind spots. In my own games playing as the TLT spammer, those blind spots emerged as my main tactical concern, and they become progressively harder to protect as the game continues.

Moreover, though, I'm not interested in spending my time and energy coming up with and explaining reasons that TLT spam is difficult to face. I'd rather spend that same effort coming up with strategies that beat TLT without my list being weakened against other obvious metagame threats.

Moreover, though, I'm not interested in spending my time and energy coming up with and explaining reasons that TLT spam is difficult to face.

Yeah.

Even if we accept that the R1 donut is hard to expolite (which I don't) then the discussion has no place to go. Unless the discussion will revolve around what FFG will do to nerf the TLT.

Saying that the R1 donut can't be or is too hard to expolite is worthless, because you are accepting defeat before the first die is rolled. I have no intention of simply agreeing to disagree with people like that.

To be quite frank, if I'm flying a high PS A-Wing, Interceptor w/AT, T-70, ect... and I can't get in and keep a single Y-Wing at range one, then I'm doing something wrong, and anyone who says such a thing is too hard, is quite simply bad at this game.

Pretty much every argument about why they can't be beat is looking at the game in a vacuum and is both assuming either the Y-Wing player is vastly more skilled, or else the only thing the Y-Wing player needs to do is roll dice. Both of which are amazingly flawed assumptions to make.

Simple fact of the matter: Getting into range1 of the slow, boostless TLT Y often means you're taking return fire from 2-3 other TLTs. Not many ships can shrug that off.

Maybe not. But it'll get it's shots off first. And what about the other 3-4 ships in my list? All of whom are shooting before your TLT Y-Wngs as well?

You may very well find yourself a ship down before you even get the opportunity to return fire.

Seems to me you're making an awful lot of assumptions with your arguments here. That your four TLT Y-Wings will only have to deal with one major and obvious threat, for a start.

Maybe that's the problem here. Maybe you're being too narrow minded in your analysis of TLT Y-Wings. Of course a 2 ship build - say a fattie and an escort - will find it a difficult list to fly against. But 2-ship builds aren' t the only lists out there, and there's plenty which will tear a TLT Y-Wing list apart before it gets the opportunity to do any significant damage.

I mean, when players show up at tournaments without bringing the 4 TLT list because they don't want to be "that guy", that should tell you right there that this is not just another case of "the sky is falling".

That's it right there. I won't say the TLT is bad design. But if you run four of them, you are a bad person.

Are they commonly run 4 though? I thought recent tourney results had lists that did well with TLT, but they didn't seem pure TLT if I remember correctly.

Are they commonly run 4 though?

No, from what I saw mostly it was 2 TLT's and 1-2 of something else.

Simple fact of the matter: Getting into range1 of the slow, boostless TLT Y often means you're taking return fire from 2-3 other TLTs. Not many ships can shrug that off.

Maybe not. But it'll get it's shots off first. And what about the other 3-4 ships in my list? All of whom are shooting before your TLT Y-Wngs as well?

You may very well find yourself a ship down before you even get the opportunity to return fire.

Seems to me you're making an awful lot of assumptions with your arguments here. That your four TLT Y-Wings will only have to deal with one major and obvious threat, for a start.

Maybe that's the problem here. Maybe you're being too narrow minded in your analysis of TLT Y-Wings. Of course a 2 ship build - say a fattie and an escort - will find it a difficult list to fly against. But 2-ship builds aren' t the only lists out there, and there's plenty which will tear a TLT Y-Wing list apart before it gets the opportunity to do any significant damage.

I've seen how quickly 2 interceptors can shred a Y-wing. Especially with Palpatine to add a crit (my last game had 4 crits landed on the hull of a Y-wing in one turn).