Sometimes I think people see lists that are simple, and think easy. Simple lists aren't necessarily any easier to run, they just require a different kind of thinking. The massed TLT player has to find a way to overlap as many arcs as possible while not leaving safe areas for enemy ships at important moments. This player is thinking in terms of how the squad needs to move in 2-3 turns, not about all the tricks the squad can pull in a single turn. A single turn's planning is simple, because there aren't many decisions to make, but because the TLT carriers are so slow, the player has to correctly plan and execute a strategy or the squad can be cut apart by ships that can too easily out-joust or reposition on them.

I mean, when players show up at tournaments without bringing the 4 TLT list because they don't want to be "that guy", that should tell you right there that this is not just another case of "the sky is falling".

That's it right there. I won't say the TLT is bad design. But if you run four of them, you are a bad person.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I completely disapprove of this attitude. The designers make the game, not us. It's not our place to decide what is and isn't 'legal' by putting shame on opponents for what they fly. If it's a strong list, you should take it! If it's a strong list, you should look for lots of games against it to learn its weaknesses! Maybe you should even play it yourself to get a better sense of what you're afraid of when you're flying that list.

I 100% disagree with calling someone a bad person because they fly Fat Han or Quad TLT, or pre-nerf Phantoms.

I think what a lot of this comes down it is that most people don't play the game nearly as much as they let on. They spend all their times on the forums when they can't get a game in, but that doesn't actually give them experience at the game. So what ends up happening is that they have 2 games and lose both of them to Quad TLTs and then start complaining about them. You need like, 20 games maybe before you start talking about things being broken. And no, 20 people playing 1 game each is not the same thing. The more you play against the list, the better you get at it. If it's a new list with a new card, it's naive to think that somebody is just going to walk up and ace the list first try, especially if it's as powerful as it sounds like the Quad TLT Y-wings list is.

I mean, when players show up at tournaments without bringing the 4 TLT list because they don't want to be "that guy", that should tell you right there that this is not just another case of "the sky is falling".

That's it right there. I won't say the TLT is bad design. But if you run four of them, you are a bad person.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I completely disapprove of this attitude. The designers make the game, not us. It's not our place to decide what is and isn't 'legal' by putting shame on opponents for what they fly. If it's a strong list, you should take it! If it's a strong list, you should look for lots of games against it to learn its weaknesses! Maybe you should even play it yourself to get a better sense of what you're afraid of when you're flying that list.

I 100% disagree with calling someone a bad person because they fly Fat Han or Quad TLT, or pre-nerf Phantoms.

I think what a lot of this comes down it is that most people don't play the game nearly as much as they let on. They spend all their times on the forums when they can't get a game in, but that doesn't actually give them experience at the game. So what ends up happening is that they have 2 games and lose both of them to Quad TLTs and then start complaining about them. You need like, 20 games maybe before you start talking about things being broken. And no, 20 people playing 1 game each is not the same thing. The more you play against the list, the better you get at it. If it's a new list with a new card, it's naive to think that somebody is just going to walk up and ace the list first try, especially if it's as powerful as it sounds like the Quad TLT Y-wings list is.

100% support this point of view. I played a lot of me vs me games with my Regionals list and a variety of popular meta lists. This really gave me some huge insights into how these lists play, and how to take advantage of situations that otherwise I wouldn't have recognized.

I mean, when players show up at tournaments without bringing the 4 TLT list because they don't want to be "that guy", that should tell you right there that this is not just another case of "the sky is falling".

That's it right there. I won't say the TLT is bad design. But if you run four of them, you are a bad person.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I completely disapprove of this attitude. The designers make the game, not us. It's not our place to decide what is and isn't 'legal' by putting shame on opponents for what they fly. If it's a strong list, you should take it! If it's a strong list, you should look for lots of games against it to learn its weaknesses! Maybe you should even play it yourself to get a better sense of what you're afraid of when you're flying that list.

I 100% disagree with calling someone a bad person because they fly Fat Han or Quad TLT, or pre-nerf Phantoms.

I think what a lot of this comes down it is that most people don't play the game nearly as much as they let on. They spend all their times on the forums when they can't get a game in, but that doesn't actually give them experience at the game. So what ends up happening is that they have 2 games and lose both of them to Quad TLTs and then start complaining about them. You need like, 20 games maybe before you start talking about things being broken. And no, 20 people playing 1 game each is not the same thing. The more you play against the list, the better you get at it. If it's a new list with a new card, it's naive to think that somebody is just going to walk up and ace the list first try, especially if it's as powerful as it sounds like the Quad TLT Y-wings list is.

100% support this point of view. I played a lot of me vs me games with my Regionals list and a variety of popular meta lists. This really gave me some huge insights into how these lists play, and how to take advantage of situations that otherwise I wouldn't have recognized.

hate the game (mechanic), not the player

Sometimes I think people see lists that are simple, and think easy. Simple lists aren't necessarily any easier to run, they just require a different kind of thinking. The massed TLT player has to find a way to overlap as many arcs as possible while not leaving safe areas for enemy ships at important moments. This player is thinking in terms of how the squad needs to move in 2-3 turns, not about all the tricks the squad can pull in a single turn. A single turn's planning is simple, because there aren't many decisions to make, but because the TLT carriers are so slow, the player has to correctly plan and execute a strategy or the squad can be cut apart by ships that can too easily out-joust or reposition on them.

Yup, the attitude is, if it beats me, it's an easy list that's OP, and leads to negative playing experience.

Ya can't win every game :lol:

I will never fail to be amused by the internet's inability to infer sarcasm.

Yup, the attitude is, if it beats me, it's an easy list that's OP, and leads to negative playing experience.

The true sign of a good sport is the person who gets stomped on by a powerful list, when they are flying something that may be sub par, but don't whine about how boring or overpowered the list is.

Grace in losing is one of the primary signs of a good sport.

Myself I once took a Chewie/Corran list to my X-Wing league and just stomped the holy crap out of everyone. By the time I got done I actually felt kinda bad about it because I was on a roll, with a super powerful list, and everyone else was apparently trying new things.

Not one person complained about it, because they all knew that the whole point of the game is to fly the list you have the best you can.

If I had someone in my league who tried to call someone a bad person or otherwise shame them for the list they flew... That person would not be welcome back again.

1. It can only do 2 damage a turn, consistently yes, but only 2 damage a turn.

2. It's 6 points, and has a blind spot.

3. Y-wings aren't exactly the hardest ships to destroy, and they aren't very maneuverable, so you can easily exploit said blind spot.

The TLT is balanced on a Y-wing, you just need to know what how to counter it (and there are plenty of ways as demonstrated by the rather large thread with a similar name.)

1. you do realize that 2 damage is quite alot,yes? most weapons have <2 expected hits (for reference: a 3dice attack with focus has 2.25 expected hits vs 0agility). To be fair, so do 2TLTs against high agility targets, but what makes them unique is their powerfull ability to strip multiple tokens.

2. So you think it is costed correctly at 6pts? Fair point, but there are people who disagree and lean towards 7 or 8 pts.

3. Fair point, but i think thats a common misperception: If there's 4 TLT the blind spot isnt easy to exploit at all. In fact, it's usually not physically possible to be in multiple blind spots if the 4TLT players spreads out a bit. And by now there's quite a number of games that serve as a reference point that it can be done, especially if you run with unhinged astromech. This is completely different from the old PWT meta, where you had to chase one big guy.

I will never fail to be amused by the internet's inability to infer sarcasm.

Oops. My bad.

Still, my point remains and if you were being sarcastic, then we agree, so let's be friends.

It never fails to amuse me all the heated arguemente over a fun game.

1. It can only do 2 damage a turn, consistently yes, but only 2 damage a turn.

2. It's 6 points, and has a blind spot.

3. Y-wings aren't exactly the hardest ships to destroy, and they aren't very maneuverable, so you can easily exploit said blind spot.

The TLT is balanced on a Y-wing, you just need to know what how to counter it (and there are plenty of ways as demonstrated by the rather large thread with a similar name.)

1. you do realize that 2 damage is quite alot,yes? most weapons have <2 expected hits (for reference: a 3dice attack with focus has 2.25 expected hits vs 0agility). To be fair, so do 2TLTs against high agility targets, but what makes them unique is their powerfull ability to strip multiple tokens.

2. So you think it is costed correctly at 6pts? Fair point, but there are people who disagree and lean towards 7 or 8 pts.

3. Fair point, but i think thats a common misperception: If there's 4 TLT the blind spot isnt easy to exploit at all. In fact, it's usually not physically possible to be in multiple blind spots if the 4TLT players spreads out a bit. And by now there's quite a number of games that serve as a reference point that it can be done, especially if you run with unhinged astromech. This is completely different from the old PWT meta, where you had to chase one big guy.

1. I think it's about normal / average. The true strength of a 4x TLT list is its ability to concentrate firepower on a single target until it's dead. Now, given the dial of a Y wing, speed, and just the general way of how a turreted ships work, the Y wings should be circling in the center like a school of sharks. This gives you insight into how to deploy both your ships and your asteroids. It also gives you insight into how you should be approaching the game in general. (ie, flanking). If you don't have any ships that make good flankers, thats your fault for not bringing a varied list, and you are no more or less to blame for putting all your eggs in one basket than your opponent is for spamming a single ship type.

2. It might be a point too cheap, I'll grant you. then again, I've always felt the Y wing and HWK are too expensive. The HWK requires a turret. The Y wing was likely costed based on what it could do once fully upgraded not what it could do naked. Its cost also likely reflected an over-estimation of the value/utility of ordnance, based on the game at launch. This upgrade makes both those ships competitive and formidable at an appropriate total cost. I'm ok with that. I'm not sure about how its point cost value works with respect toward the K Wing, but given that the K Wing comes up with a PWT, and assuming that the value of PWT is already built in to the cost of the ship, you are getting diminishing returns on taking a TLT. I'm not saying it isn't valuable or good, mind you, I'm saying you're paying the full pointage (6) for redundancy on something you already have (360 degree firing arc).

3. Maybe. Part of your job, as an opposing player, and the realization of your skill set, is to 'break them up'. There are different ways to do that, depending on your list. If you don't deploy your asteroids in such a way as to force breakup, you've already started losing the battle. Personally, depending on what I had, I wouldn't necessarily try to break him up, but rather play the flanks in order to only allow 2 ships to fire on any single one of my ships. It's also worth saying that NO game of X wing i've ever played in and has seen perfectly tight formations throughout the entirety of the game. At some point, they always devolve into an "every man for himself" kind of thing.

EDIT: tightened/clarified some language

It never fails to amuse me all the heated arguemente over a fun game.

On the surface, I agree. It is sort of amusing. But at the heart of it, you've touched on exactly the reason why it gets heated: it's a fun game and people aren't having fun. It's supposed to be fun. People are paying money on this game to have fun. But sometimes it isn't. Unfortunately, fun is a bit subjective. There are many different types of players. Some only have fun when they win. Some have fun cause it's just awesome STAR WARS! Some have fun trying to find new and unique lists or combos and are just happy if they get that list to work 1 out of 10 times.

What happens is that someone isn't having fun so they propose a change or a critique. However, their opinion on how things should change is in direct conflict with how another player perceives fun. So we get into an argument over whose version of fun is right and defending why our version of fun is the best version.

Wow. Now that I've typed that out, it sounds more petty than ever.

But regardless, I think it's wrong to make someone feel bad for the list they ran unless the list is illegal. Putting people down for your own ego and satisfaction is never okay in my book.

It never fails to amuse me all the heated arguemente over a fun game.

On the surface, I agree. It is sort of amusing. But at the heart of it, you've touched on exactly the reason why it gets heated: it's a fun game and people aren't having fun. It's supposed to be fun. People are paying money on this game to have fun. But sometimes it isn't. Unfortunately, fun is a bit subjective. There are many different types of players. Some only have fun when they win. Some have fun cause it's just awesome STAR WARS! Some have fun trying to find new and unique lists or combos and are just happy if they get that list to work 1 out of 10 times.

What happens is that someone isn't having fun so they propose a change or a critique. However, their opinion on how things should change is in direct conflict with how another player perceives fun. So we get into an argument over whose version of fun is right and defending why our version of fun is the best version.

Wow. Now that I've typed that out, it sounds more petty than ever.

But regardless, I think it's wrong to make someone feel bad for the list they ran unless the list is illegal. Putting people down for your own ego and satisfaction is never okay in my book.

Totally agree with you. Don't put people down if they play the game in a different way to you. Just accept it and move on.

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

So how did you arrive to the conclusion that its not unbalanced? What was your thought process? I'm curious because you act like it's a given fact.

1. It can only do 2 damage a turn, consistently yes, but only 2 damage a turn.

2. It's 6 points, and has a blind spot.

3. Y-wings aren't exactly the hardest ships to destroy, and they aren't very maneuverable, so you can easily exploit said blind spot.

The TLT is balanced on a Y-wing, you just need to know what how to counter it (and there are plenty of ways as demonstrated by the rather large thread with a similar name.)

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

Y-wings have had no less than 4 buffs recently.

Unhinged astros, BTLA4, Bomb loadouts, TLTs.

As someone who loves Y-wings I wasn't asking for any buffs, but to be fair we know that some x-wing lovers felt the same over the X-wing.

Personally I don't see the TLT as a big deal in terms of balance, but I do see it as a game changer. One that may be adapted to and beaten.

I wasn't asking for a buff either though I'm pleased with this, and it will definitely put Ys back into competitive play.

First, I'd like to point out your username: there's gotta be some bias there.

Secondly, the "blind spot" argument is technically true, yes. However, exploiting it is something that is much easier said then done -- especially when there are four of them to deal with. And Y-Wings don't really need to be that maneuverable to get an enemy ship out of range 1 territory, either.

Tough lists are fine. Challenges are good. Not disputing that at all. But 4xTLTs is almost like X-Wing with training wheels since so little thinking is involved.

Most of us take all this way too seriously. It's little plastic spaceships after all. OTOH, it also represents a significant investment in time and money.

2 points and then I am done for the day.

1. I would never think about running 4xTLT list in a friendly. Y'all do what you please but I can't imagine anyone choosing this list because they think it is more fun than almost anything else!

2. Going to have my sons fly this against me for a while because I think it will give them a legitimate shot to beat me.

I really don't understand claims of this list being easy to fly

without great use of obstacles, even X-wings can race up to range 1 and utterly disembowel these slow, non-boost/roll small bases

then again, my experience with TLTs comes from repeatedly flying two Ks and a Y, so maybe I'm just crazy

but I can't help myself, they just look so awesome!

Most of us take all this way too seriously. It's little plastic spaceships after all. OTOH, it also represents a significant investment in time and money.

2 points and then I am done for the day.

1. I would never think about running 4xTLT list in a friendly. Y'all do what you please but I can't imagine anyone choosing this list because they think it is more fun than almost anything else!

2. Going to have my sons fly this against me for a while because I think it will give them a legitimate shot to beat me.

Nail on the head good sir.

It never fails to amuse me all the heated arguemente over a fun game.

On the surface, I agree. It is sort of amusing. But at the heart of it, you've touched on exactly the reason why it gets heated: it's a fun game and people aren't having fun. It's supposed to be fun. People are paying money on this game to have fun. But sometimes it isn't. Unfortunately, fun is a bit subjective. There are many different types of players. Some only have fun when they win. Some have fun cause it's just awesome STAR WARS! Some have fun trying to find new and unique lists or combos and are just happy if they get that list to work 1 out of 10 times.

What happens is that someone isn't having fun so they propose a change or a critique. However, their opinion on how things should change is in direct conflict with how another player perceives fun. So we get into an argument over whose version of fun is right and defending why our version of fun is the best version.

Wow. Now that I've typed that out, it sounds more petty than ever.

But regardless, I think it's wrong to make someone feel bad for the list they ran unless the list is illegal. Putting people down for your own ego and satisfaction is never okay in my book.

The "fun is subjective" standpoint can be said about pretty much anything though. For example, there are many that use games as a form of entertainment, but some people get a kick out of burning live ants with a magnifying glass.

I'm not taking it too sersiously seriously :-)

I post here because I love to talk and think about my games while I'm stuck at my 9-5...you know..when I can't be actually playing x wing.

The fact is, for almost everyone here, I'd probably seem like a jolly fellow and have a good time playing with you all. Even for you gits who want to play bro-bots or pre-nerf phantoms (that's my 'meh' response to the ships that *I* don't like playing against).

...i think thats a common misperception: If there's 4 TLT the blind spot isnt easy to exploit at all. In fact, it's usually not physically possible to be in multiple blind spots if the 4TLT players spreads out a bit. And by now there's quite a number of games that serve as a reference point that it can be done, especially if you run with unhinged astromech. This is completely different from the old PWT meta, where you had to chase one big guy.

Overlapping blind spots is a near-certainty. In order for there to be no place a ship could occupy two TLT blind spots at once, every TLT ship needs to be at least 6-7 bases from its nearest friendly neighbor. (Range 1 has a radius of 2.5 bases, and there has to be a ship-sized gap in between the two blind spots in order to keep a ship from straddling them. That gap is 1 base wide if you're talking about a small ship, and 2 bases wide if you're talking about a Large ship.)

6-7 bases means your TLTs are at Range 3 from one another. And since TLTs can only attack at Range 2-3, you're stuck in a fork: if you spread your TLTs out enough to eliminate any chance of overlapping blind spots, they lose the ability to target ships approaching the opposite side of the formation.

To make it simpler, think about four people holding long sticks, positioned on a circle so that each person's stick reaches less than arm's length past the next one. Anyone walking toward the circle from outside can be touched by no more than two sticks at a time.

All of that doesn't mean there are exploitable overlapping blind spots in every possible set of actual geometry in the game. But if your opponent's ships are more maneuverable than yours (and they will be), and he or she is quick to spot those seams, they can often be used to the attacker's advantage.

I really don't understand claims of this list being easy to fly

without great use of obstacles, even X-wings can race up to range 1 and utterly disembowel these slow, non-boost/roll small bases

then again, my experience with TLTs comes from repeatedly flying two Ks and a Y, so maybe I'm just crazy

but I can't help myself, they just look so awesome!

It amazes me how easy people think it is ships can just zip into range 1 of a target and stay that way like a magnet all game.

It amazes me how easy people think it is ships can just zip into range 1 of a target and stay that way like a magnet all game.

Only need 2-3 turns of that range 1 bracket, and with slower ships with limited dials it isn't that hard.

Those K wings really need a 'painted ' target for all their ordinance . A little red dot that nobody notices........missiles away!

It amazes me how easy people think it is ships can just zip into range 1 of a target and stay that way like a magnet all game.

Only need 2-3 turns of that range 1 bracket, and with slower ships with limited dials it isn't that hard.

If you can survive 2-3 turns of 6+ damage.

They don't have to exploit gaps all game. They have to do it long enough to gain a turn of unreturned fire and/or force fire to be split. You don't win by never being ahot, you win by more effectively concentrating fire.