People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

To be fair saying I'm sorry you can't beat it using your favorite list etc. Could have been said about phantoms and turrets.

The game used to be Rock Paper Scissors, where Dynamite kills everything.

Now it's Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock. There is no Dynamite.

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

I don't understand the whining. They are beatable. And the OP even says it. He even says you have to adapt to them. Well then I guess we should do that.

I don't understand the "boring list" stigma either. I mean exactly 100% of the competitive list have been qualified as "boring" to play with or against on this forum. Literally! Just a few examples:

Tie Swarm -> boring

BBBBZ -> boring

Phantoms -> boring and overpowered before nerf

Fat Turrets plus escort -> boring and op

Brobots -> boring and op

Y-wings with TLT -> yeah you name it....

Guys if you really think playing against or withall these and many more lists is boring and/or frustrating, please feel free to stop playing X-Wing.

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

Y-wings have had no less than 4 buffs recently.

Unhinged astros, BTLA4, Bomb loadouts, TLTs.

As someone who loves Y-wings I wasn't asking for any buffs, but to be fair we know that some x-wing lovers felt the same over the X-wing.

Personally I don't see the TLT as a big deal in terms of balance, but I do see it as a game changer. One that may be adapted to and beaten.

None of those are really buffs, though. (Especially the Unhinged Astromech, which isn't any better than the R2 Astromech from the Y-wing expansion.)

The Y-wing's problem was that it was a fine, well-balanced ship with one real option: Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon Turret. It got Bomb Upgrade, which is a neutral step: trade one kind of ordnance slot for another, but you still have to pay for the ordnance you're running. It got the BTL-A4 title, which makes the ship into a jouster that relies solely on its mediocre dial to position its firing arc. And now it gets TLT, which comes with a donut hole and a damage cap in exchange for (admittedly) really good range options.

But none of those are buffs or fixes, the way A-wings and TIE Advanced got fixes. They're just additional options for a ship that lacked them.

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

To be fair saying I'm sorry you can't beat it using your favorite list etc. Could have been said about phantoms and turrets.

I think the array of anti-phantom ships builds is much, much smaller than the array of anti-TLT ships. To beat phantoms, you needed high PS ships with reactive movement. Or the ability to see 3 to 8 minutes into the future. That's a very specific ship build/design. Re: Fat Turrets...I don't know enough about the meta there to have an opinion one way or the other, because I play with friends for fun, and we didn't over-use Fat Han/Super Dash/Fat Cherrio.

The counter to TLT is much more widespread; more ubiquitous. You don't have to build an "anti-TLT" list in order to defeat them. You might have to change up your favorite list, to some degree. And many of the counters to TLT function in a variety of other ways, and will serve you well in those other roles.

To me the Vader I use (EUATCPRED)is boring.

It's boring as when I field Vader it's my goto.

To me Soontirfel+PTL+AT+SD is boring.

As it's my goto for Fel.

So yeah you know maybe you're right, maybe it's viable options rather than optimal builds.

I want to point out that I've repeatedly used and will continue to repeatedly use those builds if I actually want to play serious, when I want to bring my A-game. I will use optimal builds.

Optimal builds are boring. But they are what we use.

Played in a smallish tourney at the miniature market store in St Louis on Saturday. 25 players and not a single quad TLT. Why? Probably because the list is just zero fun to play. I could give that squad to my 8-year-old son and he would be just as likely to win as I would. I don't think it's broken and I don't think it needs an errata but I will agree that its boring as can be. There is a reason I don't play Risk anymore... Or Yahtzee.

If you want a TLT list that isn't boring, but takes lots of skill to do well with, then just take this:

Gold Squadron Pilot w/ BTL-A4 title, R2 astromech, Twin laser turret

Gold Squadron Pilot w/ BTL-A4 title, R2 astromech, Twin laser turret

Gold Squadron Pilot w/ BTL-A4 title, R2 astromech, Twin laser turret

Gold Squadron Pilot w/ BTL-A4 title, R2 astromech, Twin laser turret

100 points

im not talking balance. and i like that we see a shift in the meta now. But i still think the 4y tlt list promotes tedious playing experiences and i don't like how it was designed. It doesn't seem as if the turret was meant to be run in fours. And yes, i think it will be erataed just like BR on large ships and double tacs were. It actually baffles me that none of you seem to agree with this. Do you in all honesty like how the TLT spam list plays, since you're all making me feel like a big fat troll here?

I enjoyed reading your OP, but now you seem to be taking it personal. NPE is soooooo subjective. I like to KITE. I like to FORCE DRAWS. I like to GAME THE CLOCK LEGALLY (kiting). When I kite a BBBBZ list around the board until TIME is called and neither of us win -- I've been told it was NPE.

Kite 4-TLT all day. Make them work for it. I find it fun, but you find it NPE.

I'm getting the sense that when you guys use the word "boring", what you really mean is:

"I want my opponent to play a list that seems powerful on inspection, but really requires him to be a 3-move-out genius in order to fly properly and get the most out of. That way, if he really isn't smart/good, I will win. If he is that smart/good, and he does win, I will have the satisfaction of knowing I was only beaten by the Bobby Fischer of X-Wing, and that makes my ego very happy, indeed."

Change is apparently very scary. I wonder what the big boogeyman from Wave 8 will be?

4-lom

An Anecdote Regarding: Boring.

By: Rocmistro

from his best-selling Autobiography: Flying Casual; the Art of the X

"I remember one of my first public games at my FLGS. It was probably my 4th or 5th game all around, and I had only been into the game for about a week or two. I'd say it was somewhere right before Wave 4 hit. I was on a Tie Interceptor craze, and my list was 4x Royal Guard Pilots, all with push the limit. I don't remember what my opponent had, but I do know it was all PS 6 or below, and I don't think he had any turrets.

"Needless to say, I arc-dodged and blew the hell out of him. I don't think I lost a single ship, I don't even remember taking any damage to be honest with you."

"At the time, I thought. "Whoa. This is the most powerful ship list in X Wing. It cannot be beaten. It's undefeatable."

In reality, it was just a case of the ultimate Scissors meets the ultimate Paper. He put all his eggs in one basket, and so did I. I just had the better basket. I could tell, by the end of the game, he was very frustrated, and not having a good time. Maybe he was even bored, knowing there was nothing that he could really do that would make a difference. Not a fun game for him, I imagine. Was this FFG's fault? Bad ship design? Bad game design? Had I truly found the ultimate power build? Hardly."

"What defines a "boring" list? Is it a list that takes little thought for you to use? Too much thought for you opponent to fly against? I'm not really sure. What I do know, a lesson I have learned well from 40k / Fantasy, is that Eggs-in-1-basket lists will only take you so far. Once you meat the hard counter, you're done. Everyone will always be tempted to build a list this way....a list with one small but absolute Achilles' Heel, hoping they don't meet up with Paris's arrow. It can be done with almost every type of unit, every type of game, every type of ship, model, or list, to a greater or lesser extent. If it's any consolation, I have found the best players will learn to make all-comers list, and they will learn every possible matchup; when to engage, when to disengage, when to attack, when to feint. It's the only way to get really good. Flying in circles with 360 will never make you a good pilot. Ever. That's the price of boring ships."

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

Actually i also enjoy seeing Y-Wings arguably at the top of the meta. The ship always appealed to me and for a good while it was seriously underpowered. And suddenly its some of the best 25 points per ship you can spend.

I don't inderstand the whining. They are beatable. And the OP even says it. He even says you have to adapt to them. Well then I guess we should do that.

I don't understand the "boring list" stigma either. I mean exactly 100% of the competitive list have been qualified as "boring" to play with or against on this forum. Literally! Just a few examples:

Tie Swarm -> boring

BBBBZ -> boring

Phantoms -> boring and overpowered before nerf

Fat Turrets plus escort -> boring and op

Brobots -> boring and op

Y-wings with TLT -> yeah you name it....

Guys if you really think playing against or withall these and many more lists is boring and/or frustrating, please feel free to stop playing X-Wing.

I've not heard most of those lists described as boring. Could you honestly say that you would be interested in watching a quad TLT mirror match on twitch? Would be as exciting as a slo-mo replay of a coin flip.

I'm getting the sense that when you guys use the word "boring", what you really mean is:

"I want my opponent to play a list that seems powerful on inspection, but really requires him to be a 3-move-out genius in order to fly properly and get the most out of. That way, if he really isn't smart/good, I will win. If he is that smart/good, and he does win, I will have the satisfaction of knowing I was only beaten by the Bobby Fischer of X-Wing, and that makes my ego very happy, indeed."

I think most lists look easy to fly when the player is flying well. I'll take as an example watching Jeff Berling in his semi-final match at GenCon: he literally had the Lone Wolf buff active on Dash every single round. If you were just looking at the list on paper and watching him fly (that is, if you don't have at least a little bit of experience and expertise with Lone Wolf), it might not occur to you exactly how difficult that is.

Basically, "That list is easy mode!" is always the easier assumption to make than "Hey, I really don't understand what's going on with that list!" And the less experienced you are--not with the game in general, but with a particular ship or upgrade or list archetype--the less likely you are to get the answer right.

That's not to say there aren't any lists that really are easier to fly than others. But I think the reason that charge is leveled so often at such a wide array of lists is that "I don't understand" can be tough to recognize and even tougher to admit.

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

Actually i also enjoy seeing Y-Wings arguably at the top of the meta. The ship always appealed to me and for a good while it was seriously underpowered. And suddenly its some of the best 25 points per ship you can spend.

I don't inderstand the whining. They are beatable. And the OP even says it. He even says you have to adapt to them. Well then I guess we should do that.

I don't understand the "boring list" stigma either. I mean exactly 100% of the competitive list have been qualified as "boring" to play with or against on this forum. Literally! Just a few examples:

Tie Swarm -> boring

BBBBZ -> boring

Phantoms -> boring and overpowered before nerf

Fat Turrets plus escort -> boring and op

Brobots -> boring and op

Y-wings with TLT -> yeah you name it....

Guys if you really think playing against or withall these and many more lists is boring and/or frustrating, please feel free to stop playing X-Wing.

Here's the thing:

TIE Swarm -> Not boring. Why? Because you still have to be on your toes. You have to make sure you don't bump anything and you also have to keep targets in your arc. It actually takes a very high skill to fly this build effectively.

BBBBZ -> More forgiving than above, and certainly more durable, but you still have to plan accordingly to keep your guns pointed at the enemy and maybe try and use that Z to block with. It's not a no-brainer build by any means.

Phantoms -> Now you're just tossing around the word "boring" like candy without any rhyme or reason. Overpowered? Definitely. But the entire cloaking mechanic and never knowing where these things would end up is far from "boring".

Fat Turrets -> Maybe boring if every build we saw was exactly the same, but they aren't. There are many variations on these builds, and it still takes some skill to fly the large ships. They have a tendency to hit obstacles more often and they are much easier to block and take actions away from.

Brobots -> Okay, these might be dipping their toes in "boring" waters, mainly because they come in pairs and usually have the same upgrades on each with the same pilot skills. But again, larger ships are more awkward to fly, and they can do a maneuver that most ships can't.

The fact is, Y-Wings with TLTs is hands down, by far, the most boring build we've seen to date. Sure, there have been one or two variations on the spam list out there, but the scum list is the dominant one that most people are going with. You have four ships that are exactly the same with the exact same upgrade. You can make a ton of mistakes and it doesn't really matter a whole lot because chances are, you'll still get to shoot anyway. It's the definition of an autopilot list if there ever was one.

Can it be beat? Of course. Any list can. That's not the point here.

The point is, X-Wing is supposed to be a tactical game all about dogfighting, maneuvering, and positioning, but these TLT builds kind of throw that out the window. And no list prior actually put people on guilt trips when using them more than these do. I mean, when players show up at tournaments without bringing the 4 TLT list because they don't want to be "that guy", that should tell you right there that this is not just another case of "the sky is falling". They're a good idea gone bad, and are having a major negative impact on the game more than anything ever did.

Y-wing with ions is a build I actively dropped because my opponents called it boring, so you may have a point...

I mean, when players show up at tournaments without bringing the 4 TLT list because they don't want to be "that guy", that should tell you right there that this is not just another case of "the sky is falling".

That's it right there. I won't say the TLT is bad design. But if you run four of them, you are a bad person.

The fact is, Y-Wings with TLTs is hands down, by far, the most boring build we've seen to date.

I've not heard most of those lists described as boring. Could you honestly say that you would be interested in watching a quad TLT mirror match on twitch?

To be honest, I find watching videos of X-wing games online boring regardless of the lists involved. I'd much prefer to be playing the game myself.

And mirror matches in general are boring as well.

The fact is, Y-Wings with TLTs is hands down, by far, the most boring build we've seen to date.

To be fair, about 80% of the posters on the internet don't differentiate between facts and opinions. And that's a fact

The fact is, Y-Wings with TLTs is hands down, by far, the most boring build we've seen to date.

The evidence speaks for itself, so I think you meant to put that image up in response to your own reply.

The only reason quad TLT lists arent running wild through my local meta is apathy. Most players never had 4 Y-wings to begin with and couldnt be bothered to now.

But they're still out there, always showing up.......like genital herpes.

To be fair, about 80% of the posters on the internet don't differentiate between facts and opinions. And that's a fact

...and 95% of the statistics you read on the tinternet were made up on the spot. True story!

The evidence speaks for itself, so I think you meant to put that image up in response to your own reply.

Oh, come on.

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

So how did you arrive to the conclusion that its not unbalanced? What was your thought process? I'm curious because you act like it's a given fact.

1. It can only do 2 damage a turn, consistently yes, but only 2 damage a turn.

2. It's 6 points, and has a blind spot.

3. Y-wings aren't exactly the hardest ships to destroy, and they aren't very maneuverable, so you can easily exploit said blind spot.

The TLT is balanced on a Y-wing, you just need to know what how to counter it (and there are plenty of ways as demonstrated by the rather large thread with a similar name.)

People ask for a Y-wing buff, get a buff that isn't unbalanced or overpowered in any way, and then complain. Guys I'm sorry if you can't beat it using your favorite list, maybe that means it's time to move on, and find a new one.

Y-wings have had no less than 4 buffs recently.

Unhinged astros, BTLA4, Bomb loadouts, TLTs.

As someone who loves Y-wings I wasn't asking for any buffs, but to be fair we know that some x-wing lovers felt the same over the X-wing.

Personally I don't see the TLT as a big deal in terms of balance, but I do see it as a game changer. One that may be adapted to and beaten.

I wasn't asking for a buff either though I'm pleased with this, and it will definitely put Ys back into competitive play.

I was playing a list that mixed tactician, gunner, b-wings, ions in all ships, r3-a2, fire control system...

I had to drop it, as I was accused of bringing boring gameplay.

Can we please have a list of allowed non-boring lists? 5 Naked HWKs are okay and a blast to play against?