Ignored your post, Of course I did. You deliberaterly ignored the whole concept of community project. To get on a soapbox and preach.

Likely because community projects doesn't mean free labor. Nor is community project free reign to treat others skills with disrespect.

The amusing thing is .... all I did was offer a suggestion that maybe the op wasn't getting the responses he wanted because he wasn't offering to compensate people for their time. I got on the "soap box" because no one could handle the mere suggestion that maybe the OP should have considered offering compensation. If you had actually read any of my post you'd of seen that my first post wasn't to get on a soap box but to ask the OP a question about whether or not he had considered offering people something for their help.

This entire thing started because people freaked out at the suggestion of compensation. Because apparently it's bad to suggest that artist be paid or compensated. And it's a soap box when you defend your position when others challenge it. But you would have seen all of that had you not been ignoring post in favor of making your own case.

Problem is you are acting like someone is taking advantage of people. That is not happening. No one is getting paid. Someone is asking for volunteers. No one legally can get paid for this work. So no they can't compensate people.

You however have been on a crusade against them because they aren't paying the artists. The thing is NO ONE is getting paid for this. This is ALL voluntary work. Which by the way artists have responded too.

Talk about a thread going to hell in a handbasket...

Holy heck!

Kael! My wife is an artist, and is very much sympathetic to your standing, but even she feels you need to chill out. The OP is just putting their feelers out and seeing if anyone is willing to contribute to a community project. Compensation would be optimal, but in this case the OP cannot provide. so they are just looking for someone who wants to up their services for the sake of the project.

Of course it would be phenomenal if everyone could be compensated for their time and effort, but that's not what this project is about.

Your championship has not gone unnoticed, so set your weapons aside and let the the project blossom. Something great is going to come of this and we'll all benefit.

Problem is you are acting like someone is taking advantage of people.

No not really. If I was going to act like that I'd actually say that they are taking advantage of people. I think I've proven by this point that I'm not shy about speaking my mind and saying what I truly feel.

No one legally can get paid for this work. So no they can't compensate people.

Actually you can legally pay people for drawing fan art. Happens all the time. The fact that they aren't making money off the project isn't grounds for not considering compensation for the help you solicit. For example, both the Star Trek fan films (Renegades and Anxar) are community projects. No one is making money on them, but they are still paying people for their time. Community projects can and have compensated people for their time and effort.

You however have been on a crusade against them because they aren't paying the artists.

The bulk of my arguments are actually against the idea that soliciting artist help means that you shouldn't compensate them. The only time I actually went after the OP specifically was when he insinuated that people who donated their time and effort where somehow better than those who didn't. But the other guy who works on the project cleared that up as a likely misunderstanding due to english not being the op's primary language. Outside of that I haven't really addressed this project in particular so much defended my position.

I have, for the bulk of this discussion, been making the argument that if you're going to solicit help you should compensate that help. And for the bulk of the conversation people have been telling me I'm wrong because ...... reasons ..... as if community project actually meant that you shouldn't even remotely consider the idea of compensating the artist you go out and recruit.

My gripe isn't so much with the OP, who explained their position and after which I offered up suggestions to them about what I meant when I said compensation, it's pretty much with everyone else who acts like the mere suggestion that people offer to work something out with the artist they hire is a bad thing.

You know, when I jumped in at first to try to support the OP, I wasn't expecting it to blow up this badly.

Kael, he did not approach you asking for YOUR work. He put a request out for anyone willing and you have done nothing but defame him and act as if art is limited only to what is drawn or sculpted or whatever. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Writing is a form of art as well, and, as I said, I would be more than willing to offer assistance to these two in that way. I can't draw, but you, Kael, cannot communicate worth a ****, so I guess we can't have it all.

OP has received PMs from artists willing to offer their work to him without charge. Very likely so that people like YOU could not harass them for it, as well as avoiding those who would directly approach them and beg them for freebies.

This thread is already destroyed, and I am ashamed that I was a major part of that. But you, Kael, bear the greatest amount of that blame. You should be ashamed.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

But I'm not. I defended something I believe in strongly and I feel pretty good about that.

I can't draw, but you, Kael, cannot communicate worth a ****, so I guess we can't have it all.

I wouldn't have my current job if I actually couldn't communicate. Communication has always been one of my better rated skills in what I do. My writing is also always highly rated. So I figure I'm doing good in life.

Very likely so that people like YOU could not harass them for it, as well as avoiding those who would directly approach them and beg them for freebies.

I never argued that a person couldn't or shouldn't volunteer their skills. I only argued that a person shouldn't go out and solicit help with out first considering compensating the people they are going to hire for their time. Though the fact that you pointed out that they may have PM'd the OP in order to avoid being begged for freebies does actually support my initial claim that people don't want it to be assumed that their work should be done for free.

But you, Kael, bear the greatest amount of that blame. You should be ashamed.

There is no shame in my game.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

But I'm not. I defended something I believe in strongly and I feel pretty good about that.

I can't draw, but you, Kael, cannot communicate worth a ****, so I guess we can't have it all.

I wouldn't have my current job if I actually couldn't communicate. Communication has always been one of my better rated skills in what I do. My writing is also always highly rated. So I figure I'm doing good in life.

Very likely so that people like YOU could not harass them for it, as well as avoiding those who would directly approach them and beg them for freebies.

I never argued that a person couldn't or shouldn't volunteer their skills. I only argued that a person shouldn't go out and solicit help with out first considering compensating the people they are going to hire for their time. Though the fact that you pointed out that they may have PM'd the OP in order to avoid being begged for freebies does actually support my initial claim that people don't want it to be assumed that their work should be done for free.

But you, Kael, bear the greatest amount of that blame. You should be ashamed.

There is no shame in my game.

How bout you stop preaching about it. You are showing that you not only cant communicate worth a ****. And yes you have basically tried to shame these people for asking and effectively been trying to shame people into not offering help. And have generally been being a jerk for 3 pages. You are effectively been being a bully for 3 pages.

Very likely so that people like YOU could not harass them for it, as well as avoiding those who would directly approach them and beg them for freebies.

I never argued that a person couldn't or shouldn't volunteer their skills. I only argued that a person shouldn't go out and solicit help with out first considering compensating the people they are going to hire for their time. Though the fact that you pointed out that they may have PM'd the OP in order to avoid being begged for freebies does actually support my initial claim that people don't want it to be assumed that their work should be done for free.

Except the OP isn't trying to hire anyone. For a person whos says communication has always been one of my better rated skills in what I do there seems to be a decided lack in understanding someone else's communication.

How bout you stop preaching about it. You are showing that you not only cant communicate worth a ****. And yes you have basically tried to shame these people for asking and effectively been trying to shame people into not offering help. And have generally been being a jerk for 3 pages. You are effectively been being a bully for 3 pages.

Not really preaching. And I'm not really addressing the op. Or anyone who has said they'd be willing to do it for free. All I've done is address the idea that it shouldn't take peoples skills for granted. I've stated before that people are free to do with their free time what they will and if that want to do projects on their own time that's cool. That was back at page 1. After that point everyone else treated the idea of compensation as if it were a 4 letter word.

This entire thing started because people objected to the idea that offering compensation should be done.

Except the OP isn't trying to hire anyone. For a person whos says communication has always been one of my better rated skills in what I do there seems to be a decided lack in understanding someone else's communication.

If we're going to be pedantic then I guess I could have used enlist instead of hire. It really made no difference in that particular sentence as I was conveying a sense that doing art, and skilled art at that, was a job. In a discussion about producing a product you are effectively hiring people to do a particular job.

As for not understanding what the OP said. Go back and read my very first post. It demonstrates that I understood what the OP wanted. My first post was a suggestion that the lack of interest in the thread (and thus the reason he needed to bump it) was due to the fact that he wasn't offering anything in return for peoples help. Everything after that has pretty much spun into a discussion on whether or not I even had the right to make that suggestion. But the initial post I made was in acknowledgment that what the OP wanted was for people to do something for him for free.

Again if you had read my post you would have seen that.

How bout you stop preaching about it. You are showing that you not only cant communicate worth a ****. And yes you have basically tried to shame these people for asking and effectively been trying to shame people into not offering help. And have generally been being a jerk for 3 pages. You are effectively been being a bully for 3 pages.

Not really preaching. And I'm not really addressing the op. Or anyone who has said they'd be willing to do it for free. All I've done is address the idea that it shouldn't take peoples skills for granted. I've stated before that people are free to do with their free time what they will and if that want to do projects on their own time that's cool. That was back at page 1. After that point everyone else treated the idea of compensation as if it were a 4 letter word.

This entire thing started because people objected to the idea that offering compensation should be done.

Except the OP isn't trying to hire anyone. For a person whos says communication has always been one of my better rated skills in what I do there seems to be a decided lack in understanding someone else's communication.

If we're going to be pedantic then I guess I could have used enlist instead of hire. It really made no difference in that particular sentence as I was conveying a sense that doing art, and skilled art at that, was a job. In a discussion about producing a product you are effectively hiring people to do a particular job.

As for not understanding what the OP said. Go back and read my very first post. It demonstrates that I understood what the OP wanted. My first post was a suggestion that the lack of interest in the thread (and thus the reason he needed to bump it) was due to the fact that he wasn't offering anything in return for peoples help. Everything after that has pretty much spun into a discussion on whether or not I even had the right to make that suggestion. But the initial post I made was in acknowledgment that what the OP wanted was for people to do something for him for free.

Again if you had read my post you would have seen that.

Except so far you have been beating people over the head with your claims. And these people are not taking peoples work for granted. No matter how much you seem to think this is so. And no they did not treat compensation as a 4 letter word. You on the other hand have treated people asking for volunteer work as if they are evil. and frankly you have been being a jerk for 3 pages simply because someone asked if artists were willing to do work for no compensation just like they were doing.

And no this did not happen because you suggested people should be compensated. This happened because you decided someone asking for volunteers was some how evil. Then you have been hammering the same point over and over and ovver again. To the point that artists are annoyed with you.

Artists also do art as a HOBBY. So it would be nice if you did not lump everyone into the same box. Whether it be artists or those looking for art.

How bout you stop preaching about it. You are showing that you not only cant communicate worth a ****. And yes you have basically tried to shame these people for asking and effectively been trying to shame people into not offering help. And have generally been being a jerk for 3 pages. You are effectively been being a bully for 3 pages.

Not really preaching. And I'm not really addressing the op. Or anyone who has said they'd be willing to do it for free. All I've done is address the idea that it shouldn't take peoples skills for granted. I've stated before that people are free to do with their free time what they will and if that want to do projects on their own time that's cool. That was back at page 1. After that point everyone else treated the idea of compensation as if it were a 4 letter word.

This entire thing started because people objected to the idea that offering compensation should be done.

Except the OP isn't trying to hire anyone. For a person whos says communication has always been one of my better rated skills in what I do there seems to be a decided lack in understanding someone else's communication.

If we're going to be pedantic then I guess I could have used enlist instead of hire. It really made no difference in that particular sentence as I was conveying a sense that doing art, and skilled art at that, was a job. In a discussion about producing a product you are effectively hiring people to do a particular job.

As for not understanding what the OP said. Go back and read my very first post. It demonstrates that I understood what the OP wanted. My first post was a suggestion that the lack of interest in the thread (and thus the reason he needed to bump it) was due to the fact that he wasn't offering anything in return for peoples help. Everything after that has pretty much spun into a discussion on whether or not I even had the right to make that suggestion. But the initial post I made was in acknowledgment that what the OP wanted was for people to do something for him for free.

Again if you had read my post you would have seen that.

Except so far you have been beating people over the head with your claims. And these people are not taking peoples work for granted. No matter how much you seem to think this is so. And no they did not treat compensation as a 4 letter word. You on the other hand have treated people asking for volunteer work as if they are evil. and frankly you have been being a jerk for 3 pages simply because someone asked if artists were willing to do work for no compensation just like they were doing.

And no this did not happen because you suggested people should be compensated. This happened because you decided someone asking for volunteers was some how evil. Then you have been hammering the same point over and over and ovver again. To the point that artists are annoyed with you.

Artists also do art as a HOBBY. So it would be nice if you did not lump everyone into the same box. Whether it be artists or those looking for art.

If conceding multiple times that it's ok to ask for volunteers for a project so long as you also consider compensating people for their work makes me a jerk then I guess I'm a jerk. As I've already stated that it's ok to ask for volunteers. I've just also stipulated that you should also be considering how you can compensate them for their time too. But if defending that point makes me a jerk then I'm a jerk. But I'm ok with being a jerk. It's not the first time someones said that to me and I highly doubt it will be the last.

How bout you stop preaching about it. You are showing that you not only cant communicate worth a ****. And yes you have basically tried to shame these people for asking and effectively been trying to shame people into not offering help. And have generally been being a jerk for 3 pages. You are effectively been being a bully for 3 pages.

Not really preaching. And I'm not really addressing the op. Or anyone who has said they'd be willing to do it for free. All I've done is address the idea that it shouldn't take peoples skills for granted. I've stated before that people are free to do with their free time what they will and if that want to do projects on their own time that's cool. That was back at page 1. After that point everyone else treated the idea of compensation as if it were a 4 letter word.

This entire thing started because people objected to the idea that offering compensation should be done.

Except the OP isn't trying to hire anyone. For a person whos says communication has always been one of my better rated skills in what I do there seems to be a decided lack in understanding someone else's communication.

If we're going to be pedantic then I guess I could have used enlist instead of hire. It really made no difference in that particular sentence as I was conveying a sense that doing art, and skilled art at that, was a job. In a discussion about producing a product you are effectively hiring people to do a particular job.

As for not understanding what the OP said. Go back and read my very first post. It demonstrates that I understood what the OP wanted. My first post was a suggestion that the lack of interest in the thread (and thus the reason he needed to bump it) was due to the fact that he wasn't offering anything in return for peoples help. Everything after that has pretty much spun into a discussion on whether or not I even had the right to make that suggestion. But the initial post I made was in acknowledgment that what the OP wanted was for people to do something for him for free.

Again if you had read my post you would have seen that.

Except so far you have been beating people over the head with your claims. And these people are not taking peoples work for granted. No matter how much you seem to think this is so. And no they did not treat compensation as a 4 letter word. You on the other hand have treated people asking for volunteer work as if they are evil. and frankly you have been being a jerk for 3 pages simply because someone asked if artists were willing to do work for no compensation just like they were doing.

And no this did not happen because you suggested people should be compensated. This happened because you decided someone asking for volunteers was some how evil. Then you have been hammering the same point over and over and ovver again. To the point that artists are annoyed with you.

Artists also do art as a HOBBY. So it would be nice if you did not lump everyone into the same box. Whether it be artists or those looking for art.

If conceding multiple times that it's ok to ask for volunteers for a project so long as you also consider compensating people for their work makes me a jerk then I guess I'm a jerk. As I've already stated that it's ok to ask for volunteers. I've just also stipulated that you should also be considering how you can compensate them for their time too. But if defending that point makes me a jerk then I'm a jerk. But I'm ok with being a jerk. It's not the first time someones said that to me and I highly doubt it will be the last.

If you concede and then continue to beat people over the head about the compensation you are not actually conceding. You are pretending to concede and continuing to beat people over the head with your point of view. Which is why people are very annoyed with you. Including artists.

Seriously, can't we move on? Don't feed the troll.

Artists are being asked to "volenteer" so much it is getting old and ruining the business.

I have done volenteer jobs and helped out for free, but not for art, it is a principle.

I understand that most people have noe idea that this is a real problem for artists and the business.

No worries, now you know. Peace

I find it laughable that you somehow think this is limited to "artists".

I`m sure it`s not. But I`ve had a lot of jobs and the only one people seem to assume I can do for free is my artwork.

It has not been a problem in any other jobs I`ve had and non of my non artist friends seem to have this problem.

Of course the OP can ask for help, but any artist should take it into some serious consideration before he or she

gives her labour away for free. Volenteering is ok, but it should not be done lightly if it might affect your work situation and others in your line of work.

This "fight" started because someone said the OP might have better luck if they offered some compensation for the work they wanted.

Then someone said that was stupid or something along those lines, and that hit a nerve with artists who are used to this attitude about their profession and hard work.

If everyone have said their piece now, let us relax, reflect and try to see things from the other person`s point of view.

Good luck with the project and have a nice sunday

I just want to know more about the project.

Artists are being asked to "volenteer" so much it is getting old and ruining the business.

I have done volenteer jobs and helped out for free, but not for art, it is a principle.

I understand that most people have noe idea that this is a real problem for artists and the business.

No worries, now you know. Peace

I find it laughable that you somehow think this is limited to "artists".

I`m sure it`s not. But I`ve had a lot of jobs and the only one people seem to assume I can do for free is my artwork.

It has not been a problem in any other jobs I`ve had and non of my non artist friends seem to have this problem.

Of course the OP can ask for help, but any artist should take it into some serious consideration before he or she

gives her labour away for free. Volenteering is ok, but it should not be done lightly if it might affect your work situation and others in your line of work.

This "fight" started because someone said the OP might have better luck if they offered some compensation for the work they wanted.

Then someone said that was stupid or something along those lines, and that hit a nerve with artists who are used to this attitude about their profession and hard work.

If everyone have said their piece now, let us relax, reflect and try to see things from the other person`s point of view.

Good luck with the project and have a nice sunday

No they did not. I just went and looked. You may have read it that way. But no that is not what was said at all.

I just want to know more about the project.

Thank you for your interest

We are currently not ready to unveil, but I can assure that a preview or a draft will be out once we'll have one or more pieces of art to decorate the blurb of text

No they did not. I just went and looked. You may have read it that way. But no that is not what was said at all.

Great:) I`m glad if I was wrong about that!

I just want to know more about the project.

Thank you for your interest

We are currently not ready to unveil, but I can assure that a preview or a draft will be out once we'll have one or more pieces of art to decorate the blurb of text

I am also curious about the project. But I think you have a better chance of getting people hyped up enough to contribute if they at least know what it is about:)

Whoa...
Maby the OP should just edit the first post to read "Making a fan supplement, any artists interested in collaborating?"

That way it's not a comission or someone being hired in any way.
It's simply a person asking if anyone else wants to help out with the project for free (simply out of the interest of making the project itself).

Just curious if you guys pay your GM for his time spent writing your adventures?

Just curious if you guys pay your GM for his time spent writing your adventures?

That`s nice. Compare my job to a hobby.... Thanks!

I was on board with what alot of people were saying here now and really curious about this community project, but if we are back to this mentality, I`m off. Laters...

So no person whom writes for a living GM's as a hobby? No players are aspiring actors who normally get paid for roleplaying?

Are you solely here as a business enterprise then to commission your work and flush out potential customers or is this your hobby too? Many of the folks here are suggesting with volunteered time that this is just a fun collaboration for the community. I have seen some awesome fan made content and tools published which leads me to believe that many of these guys are using skill-sets used from their professional life. That makes their contribution no different from an artists contribution.

Just because my job skills intersect with my hobby does not make my hobby my "job" when I apply those skills to my hobby. I don't expect to be compensated for my work skills when I design stuff for my hobby. I mean the OP posted in a community message board designed to encourage collaboration within a hobby group community. It's not like he took out a help wanted classified ad on a job website.

So no person whom writes for a living GM's as a hobby? No players are aspiring actors who normally get paid for roleplaying?

Are you solely here as a business enterprise then to commission your work and flush out potential customers or is this your hobby too? Many of the folks here are suggesting with volunteered time that this is just a fun collaboration for the community. I have seen some awesome fan made content and tools published which leads me to believe that many of these guys are using skill-sets used from their professional life. That makes their contribution no different from an artists contribution.

Just because my job skills intersect with my hobby does not make my hobby my "job" when I apply those skills to my hobby. I don't expect to be compensated for my work skills when I design stuff for my hobby. I mean the OP posted in a community message board designed to encourage collaboration within a hobby group community. It's not like he took out a help wanted classified ad on a job website.

I thought you were having a go... I clearly must have misread and thought you said that "if artists should get paid, we should start paying GMs too, right?"...

Sorry if I was wrong about that(too). I didnt think you were asking a serious question. Sorry...

I guess this subject is a bit on the sensetive side for some of us. I sounded like a bitter ass! Haha. We cool?

No, we don`t pay any of our GMs(including me) in our group and I even do art for our game for free. Would be nice to get payed for GMing though

I get paid to GM for kids.

Doesn't mean I won't GM for free for my friends.

I think you need to drop the "I have to get paid for every single doodle I make" attitude, because it's coming off as a bit elitist. (to me, anyway)

There's nothing wrong with using your skills, talents and training to do something for free as a hobby.

I am trained as a car metal shaper, and I could (although I don't currently work with it) get paid to not only fix cars, but actually build custom cars and bikes.
That doesn't mean I won't help my friends out if they happen to have a cool idea for their car. And I'll do it for free (provided they pay for the materials, of course)

I built a metal rose for a friend because he liked the first one I made for myself. Didn't charge him for that either.

Charging for every single piece of material you make, comes off as a bit douchy, if you ask me.


Now, if someone you don't know is asking you to draw portraits of their characters?
Sure, ask them for a small payment.

If someone asks you if you want to join them in a fan made, free, project?
Ask them what it's about and if it sounds interesting, then do it for your own pleasure.
If you don't like them, just decline with a friendly "That's not really something I'm interested in, but good luck with your project".

Simple as that.

I get paid to GM for kids.

Doesn't mean I won't GM for free for my friends.

I think you need to drop the "I have to get paid for every single doodle I make" attitude, because it's coming off as a bit elitist. (to me, anyway)

There's nothing wrong with using your skills, talents and training to do something for free as a hobby.

I am trained as a car metal shaper, and I could (although I don't currently work with it) get paid to not only fix cars, but actually build custom cars and bikes.

That doesn't mean I won't help my friends out if they happen to have a cool idea for their car. And I'll do it for free (provided they pay for the materials, of course)

I built a metal rose for a friend because he liked the first one I made for myself. Didn't charge him for that either.

Charging for every single piece of material you make, comes off as a bit douchy, if you ask me.

Now, if someone you don't know is asking you to draw portraits of their characters?

Sure, ask them for a small payment.

If someone asks you if you want to join them in a fan made, free, project?

Ask them what it's about and if it sounds interesting, then do it for your own pleasure.

If you don't like them, just decline with a friendly "That's not really something I'm interested in, but good luck with your project".

Simple as that.

Very well said.