I have to add, that artists have turned up, as being asked, in private message

I also want to add that no disrespect was intentional. I have lots of artists friends and colleagues, and I respect their art and enjoy it, and I respect their right to being payed. However, most of them also do art "for free", which is called helping their community/friends, out of charity, empathy or good will. This also doesn't mean I do not think you, RodianClone, is not a good person and I respect you opinion and attitude... your sketches are also nice

This is also something that is bad, terming doing free art for the project as "helping their community/friends" as if not doing the project for free meant that you somehow didn't want to help the community. Expecting payment for a skill you have honed over a number of years isn't a bad thing. And treating people who want to be payed for their skills as if they are the bad guys is even more disrespectful than just asking people to do your book for free. Your positioning yourselves as if you guys are the hero's of the community against those evil folks who refuse to do stuff for free.

Also how is RodianClone not a good person?

Artists will work on what they want when they want to work on it. While it is true that there are plenty of people they believe that artists should work for simple enjoyment and see no need to compensate them it would be horrendous to assume that is always the case.

In any event the simple truth is that you get what you pay for. Compensation is not a requirement, but you are very unlikely to get top tier art and design work without it. The biggest advantage to paying for work, after quality, is an expectation to complete on a deadline. People doing things for free are rarely motivated to complete them on a schedule.

I do hope that you find some people that can produce some good work for you. Though a little hint about the project's concept might get people more interested.

Kael, why derail this thread over this?

I've been an artist myself and I understand the difference between big companies holding 'contests' to design logos or create artwork for projects they're going to sell and make money off, versus somebody in a community doing something out of love for the game and asking if anyone else would lend their talents and skills to the effort.

There's nothing wrong with that. Whether you're right that they shouldn't expect a lot of responses or not, what's the problem with asking?

If as an artist you don't want to participate, that's your prerogative, but this isn't freakin' Showtime trying to get free artwork for a huge boxing match, it's a simple free game supplement they're making for free and plan to give away for free.

To my mind it just seems like the wrong thing to derail the whole thread over this issue.

Kael, why derail this thread over this?

I've been an artist myself and I understand the difference between big companies holding 'contests' to design logos or create artwork for projects they're going to sell and make money off, versus somebody in a community doing something out of love for the game and asking if anyone else would lend their talents and skills to the effort.

There's nothing wrong with that. Whether you're right that they shouldn't expect a lot of responses or not, what's the problem with asking?

If as an artist you don't want to participate, that's your prerogative, but this isn't freakin' Showtime trying to get free artwork for a huge boxing match, it's a simple free game supplement they're making for free and plan to give away for free.

To my mind it just seems like the wrong thing to derail the whole thread over this issue.

Reminds me of some "rhino" butting his horn into threads

I know OP probably didn`t mean no disrespect. This attitude towards my job and way of thinking still sucks for an artist. It actually is a big problem in the artist community and it`s getting old.

Sorry if I seemed grumpy at some point, but that`s how it is. I charge way more from companies or anyone who buy the commercial rights to any artwork I produce. Private customers get it way cheaper and we share all rights. Still not for free.

Good luck on your project. I would be happy to work on it for compensation.

I fully understand and support artists and their plight to get compensated for their work.

If I was in a position to pay for art, I would.

Unfortunately, I earn Min Wage, and that only just covers my living expenses.

Certainly, if someone doesnt want to contribute without compensation, I wont hold anything against them. They deserve to be compensated for their work.

If we ever get this supplement made, I wont get paid for it either.

Really, all we are looking for, is someone who might want to contribute for the enjoyment of it. Much as I am writing it for the enjoyment of it. If I could pay for art, I would. But I can't.

I would prefer if people didnt let this thread degenerate into an argument that results in it getting locked.

Everyone is correct. Artists have a right to ask for compensation. They have a right to refuse to do work for free.

They also have a right to contribute work for free if they choose to, and that is up to each individual artist.

So .... lets all relax, chill, everyones correct. No need to argue anymore. Please.

Kael, why derail this thread over this?

I've been an artist myself and I understand the difference between big companies holding 'contests' to design logos or create artwork for projects they're going to sell and make money off, versus somebody in a community doing something out of love for the game and asking if anyone else would lend their talents and skills to the effort.

There's nothing wrong with that. Whether you're right that they shouldn't expect a lot of responses or not, what's the problem with asking?

If as an artist you don't want to participate, that's your prerogative, but this isn't freakin' Showtime trying to get free artwork for a huge boxing match, it's a simple free game supplement they're making for free and plan to give away for free.

To my mind it just seems like the wrong thing to derail the whole thread over this issue.

I initally made an observation that perhaps he should have offered compensation with his request and was pointing out how disrespectful it was that he didn't. After that people wanted to argue with me that I was wrong. So I defended my position. It doesn't help that the OP also laters position himself and people who contribute free artwork as being somehow better than those who don't.

@Kael

We (because I am the other half of this collaboration) are not in a position to offer compensation. Which is why Rusak didnt make the offer.

I understand your stance that it is disrespectful, I really do.

But if we are not in a position to offer compensation, why is it so wrong to ask if anyone would assist us for credit?

For those who don't want to, they don't have to. And we would hold no animosity against them.

We are not Expecting anyone to contribute for free. We are simply asking if anyone would be prepared to.

We certainly are not intending to be disrespectful in anyway.

As for Rusaks comments about "helping the community" I think certain language issues have come up here. He is certainly not saying "You should do this for free to help this community". English is not his first language. And I am certain that something has been lost in translation there.

I just dont want this thread to devolve into something that gets it locked is all. So really... if noone wants to assist, they can simply ignore this thread, and we will leave empty handed and find another solution, be it without art or sourced from somewhere else.

But if we are not in a position to offer compensation, why is it so wrong to ask if anyone would assist us for credit?

By compensation I don't necessary mean money. One could get creative and find something that they could do to make up for the time invested. Offering to maybe buy a sourcebook for them down the road, or sending them a gift box of Star Wars goodies. Something that acknowledges that their time and skill is valuable. The problem is that people ask artist to do free stuff for them all the time and fail to acknowledge that their skills are worth compensation.

I understand not having money, I truly do (I'm a grad student soooo I'm broke all the time). But not having money to pay the artist isn't the same as not being able to compensate the artist. A simple "we don't have much to offer you but we can negotiate something" is better than "hey wanna do some free work!?!?" Being honest that you don't have much to offer but that you're willing to offer something may actually inspire people to do it for free anyway because you extended them the respect of not taking their skills for granted.

People get into this mindset that because they don't have money and because the project is for a "good cause" that they shouldn't compensate good artwork. But you're turning to a group of people who are regularly asked to do free labor and just doing more of the same. It continues a very bad cycle of people taking good art for granted.

It's a bad mindset that a lot of people get into. And honestly you don't fight bad mindsets by remaining quiet about it.

But if we are not in a position to offer compensation, why is it so wrong to ask if anyone would assist us for credit?

By compensation I don't necessary mean money. One could get creative and find something that they could do to make up for the time invested. Offering to maybe buy a sourcebook for them down the road, or sending them a gift box of Star Wars goodies. Something that acknowledges that their time and skill is valuable. The problem is that people ask artist to do free stuff for them all the time and fail to acknowledge that their skills are worth compensation.

I understand not having money, I truly do (I'm a grad student soooo I'm broke all the time). But not having money to pay the artist isn't the same as not being able to compensate the artist. A simple "we don't have much to offer you but we can negotiate something" is better than "hey wanna do some free work!?!?" Being honest that you don't have much to offer but that you're willing to offer something may actually inspire people to do it for free anyway because you extended them the respect of not taking their skills for granted.

People get into this mindset that because they don't have money and because the project is for a "good cause" that they shouldn't compensate good artwork. But you're turning to a group of people who are regularly asked to do free labor and just doing more of the same. It continues a very bad cycle of people taking good art for granted.

It's a bad mindset that a lot of people get into. And honestly you don't fight bad mindsets by remaining quiet about it.

This annoys me to no end.

A community project

The writers get no special compensation, the editors get no special compensation, the layout artist get no special compensation, the proofreader gets no special compensation, but for some dumb reason the artist needs special compensation, child please.

This annoys me to no end.

A community project

The writers get no special compensation, the editors get no special compensation, the layout artist get no special compensation, the proofreader gets no special compensation, but for some dumb reason the artist needs special compensation, child please.

I've already addressed this point but I'll do so again. They didn't come here recruiting writers. Had they done so I would have made the same arguments. Look back on page one and you'll see that I've already clearly stated that I feel the same way regardless of whether or not they asked for writers or artist. But this isn't a thread about writers, so I see no need to bring up not compensating writers.

But if you'd like for me to go on about writers, layout artist, and proofreaders I can. I do like to maintain a consistent argument after all. And it's not like everyone doesn't already think I'm derailing the topic. If you truly want it though I can add writers to the list of people who need to be compensated. But I honestly saw no point in bring up people the OP did not attempt to recruit and I'm not sure, considering I've stated on page one of this thread that I would include writers if they had asked for writers, why one would assume I'm singling out just the artist for special consideration.

But to be 100% my position is that if you come here recruiting people you should be prepared to compensate them for their time. I single out artist because this thread is specially about artist. But apparently if I don't mention writers, the layout guys, the proofreaders and anyone else who works on the project I'm singling out the artist for special attention. Soooooo to be 100% clear all people need to be compensated. Granted the OP only asked for artist ...... but I'd hate for anyone to feel left out in the artist thread.

Is there anyone I missed?

As for "child please" ...... I'm no child and at least I read the entire thread to make sure that I didn't complain about something and then quote a person who had already addressed that very point. I know how to at least read a thread and know what that the person I'm quoting has already said on the point that I'm about to make.

This annoys me to no end.

A community project

The writers get no special compensation, the editors get no special compensation, the layout artist get no special compensation, the proofreader gets no special compensation, but for some dumb reason the artist needs special compensation, child please.

Like I`ve said before, this is really simple; would you do your job for free?

Any professional should get paid if it`s not their own personal project, writers, layout artists, proofreaders, anyone!

If everyone is a hobbyist and not a professional, sure go for it! But you can`t expect any professional to do their job for free, it`s unrealistic, unfair and disrespectful.

But anyone who is doing this just as a hobby or for fun. Whatever, go for it! But don`t think any real artist will sign up to work for free on a project that isn`t their own.

Good luck on the project! I`ll be happy to do some art when you have enough to pay, but I can`t afford to work for free, I`m sorry!

I have other projects, paying jobs and commissions that comes before any of that. Doing art for free wouldn`t be fair to my other paying customers either.

This annoys me to no end.

A community project

The writers get no special compensation, the editors get no special compensation, the layout artist get no special compensation, the proofreader gets no special compensation, but for some dumb reason the artist needs special compensation, child please.

Like I`ve said before, this is really simple; would you do your job for free?

Any professional should get paid if it`s not their own personal project, writers, layout artists, proofreaders, anyone!

If everyone is a hobbyist and not a professional, sure go for it! But you can`t expect any professional to do their job for free, it`s unrealistic, unfair and disrespectful.

But anyone who is doing this just as a hobby or for fun. Whatever, go for it! But don`t think any real artist will sign up to work for free on a project that isn`t their own.

Good luck on the project! I`ll be happy to do some art when you have enough to pay, but I can`t afford to work for free, I`m sorry!

I have other projects, paying jobs and commissions that comes before any of that. Doing art for free wouldn`t be fair to my other paying customers either.

Evidently you have never heard of this new idea called: volunteering.

It works like this. You volunteer(a person who performs a service willingly and without pay) your time/specialty/home/etc. for the benefit of others. Sometime that means if you are a tax professional you go into perhaps a low income area and volunteer your professional ability and time free. Or perhaps you are a professional baker and you volunteer your kitchen for the benefit of say the local boys and girls club. Or perhaps you are an artist and you volunteer your ablity for a community project..i.e. like this sourcebook.

But in usual fashion what we get here is people ignoring that this is a 100% volunteer project. Which if they hadn't ignored everythiing except artist and free they would have easily understood.

But in usual fashion what we get here is people ignoring that this is a 100% volunteer project. Which if they hadn't ignored everythiing except artist and free they would have easily understood.

Says the person who ignored my first post about everyone should be compensated for their time. You can't take the whole "ignored this ....." high road when you yourself ignored posts in order to make your case.

Also no one ignored that it's a volunteer project. People are just upset that I had the audacity to mention that artist (and other professionals since with you I have to list everyone) should be compensated for their time. Because you know what ..... even volunteer organizations have been known to compensate people for their time.

Also how is it ok that people can ask for free labor but RodianClone can't ask to be payed? Like seriously, the man does good work, he has every right to ask for payment.

There's nothing wrong with ASKING for free labor. The problem would come with EXPECTING it. That doesn't seem to be the case. Volunteers all around.

There's nothing wrong with asking to be paid for your work, either. If OP can and is willing, then so be it. If not, OP can find someone else and the artist can find another patron.

There's no point in arguing.

Geez, I leave for a day and you guys have a part without me....

Apparently it is wrong for a volunteer to ask other people to volunteer. Who knew....

Artists are being asked to "volenteer" so much it is getting old and ruining the business.

I have done volenteer jobs and helped out for free, but not for art, it is a principle.

I understand that most people have noe idea that this is a real problem for artists and the business.

No worries, now you know. Peace

Artists are being asked to "volenteer" so much it is getting old and ruining the business.

I have done volenteer jobs and helped out for free, but not for art, it is a principle.

I understand that most people have noe idea that this is a real problem for artists and the business.

No worries, now you know. Peace

No it is not ruining the business than people asking others to write an something or edit something on a community project is ruining the writing business. It is only a problem if someone is using force to make artists do work. That is not happening here.

I never cease to be amazed about what people will be dicks to each other about.

Good luck with the volunteer project!

This is a tricky situation for an artist - whether musician, actor, sculptor, cartoonist, or anything - the desire, and need, to get oneself out there is powerful. I've seen so many advertisements for musicians to play at a bar or somewhere for "great exposure". The same for actors - I've done some free gigs myself.

Imagine if you will, that an artist went to a car dealership and said "I can't pay you, but if you give me a car it will help your brand by giving great exposure" - they would, at best, be laughed off the lot.

Society should treat artists better than they currently do, they are taken for granted far too much.

However, each artist has to decide for themselves if they want to give their stuff away. Doing so could help or hinder you. But I urge artists everywhere to not give their work away.

However, I hope art can be found for this project.

But in usual fashion what we get here is people ignoring that this is a 100% volunteer project. Which if they hadn't ignored everythiing except artist and free they would have easily understood.

Says the person who ignored my first post about everyone should be compensated for their time. You can't take the whole "ignored this ....." high road when you yourself ignored posts in order to make your case.

Also no one ignored that it's a volunteer project. People are just upset that I had the audacity to mention that artist (and other professionals since with you I have to list everyone) should be compensated for their time. Because you know what ..... even volunteer organizations have been known to compensate people for their time.

Ignored your post, Of course I did. You deliberaterly ignored the whole concept of community project. To get on a soapbox and preach.

Artists are being asked to "volenteer" so much it is getting old and ruining the business.

I have done volenteer jobs and helped out for free, but not for art, it is a principle.

I understand that most people have noe idea that this is a real problem for artists and the business.

No worries, now you know. Peace

I find it laughable that you somehow think this is limited to "artists".

Ignored your post, Of course I did. You deliberaterly ignored the whole concept of community project. To get on a soapbox and preach.

Likely because community projects doesn't mean free labor. Nor is community project free reign to treat others skills with disrespect.

The amusing thing is .... all I did was offer a suggestion that maybe the op wasn't getting the responses he wanted because he wasn't offering to compensate people for their time. I got on the "soap box" because no one could handle the mere suggestion that maybe the OP should have considered offering compensation. If you had actually read any of my post you'd of seen that my first post wasn't to get on a soap box but to ask the OP a question about whether or not he had considered offering people something for their help.

This entire thing started because people freaked out at the suggestion of compensation. Because apparently it's bad to suggest that artist be paid or compensated. And it's a soap box when you defend your position when others challenge it. But you would have seen all of that had you not been ignoring post in favor of making your own case.

But in usual fashion what we get here is people ignoring that this is a 100% volunteer project. Which if they hadn't ignored everythiing except artist and free they would have easily understood.

Says the person who ignored my first post about everyone should be compensated for their time. You can't take the whole "ignored this ....." high road when you yourself ignored posts in order to make your case.

Also no one ignored that it's a volunteer project. People are just upset that I had the audacity to mention that artist (and other professionals since with you I have to list everyone) should be compensated for their time. Because you know what ..... even volunteer organizations have been known to compensate people for their time.

Ignored your post, Of course I did. You deliberaterly ignored the whole concept of community project. To get on a soapbox and preach.

Artists are being asked to "volenteer" so much it is getting old and ruining the business.

I have done volenteer jobs and helped out for free, but not for art, it is a principle.

I understand that most people have noe idea that this is a real problem for artists and the business.

No worries, now you know. Peace

I find it laughable that you somehow think this is limited to "artists".

Exactly. I already know this is a problem.

But there is a difference between someone saying hey I am doing a community project that no one is getting paid for. You want to help out? Than saying hey i need some art for my bar. It will be great exposure. One is everyone doing something because they want to produce something great and everyone knows no one will profit from it. .The other is profiting off the work of an artist.