i just started playing and got the terrible experiment rumor where there are four monsters on the card and you have to go to arkham u. streets to fight one or all of them, and one gets added every mythos phase until you reach 8 monsters on the card and the ancient one awakens... if i have the flute of the gods which lets you destroy all monsters in the area you're in with one successful combat check, could i use it on the monsters on that rumor card? stuff like thats not really in the rulebook. also, the flute requires a sanity cost of 3 and stamina cost of 3 in order to play, if you have less than 3 of each can you still use it and just go to the hospital or asylum after its played? so far the game is great fun, i just keep running into stuff like this that i cant get answers for. some of these rules really seem to drive you crazy, just like if you encountered an old one! Thanks!

Probably (hopefully) will get sorted out in the FAQ. The discussion has been going on for years, I think ColtsFan might've flip-flopped on it over the years. I'm currently on the no-fence. Though can't recall the last time I've seen FotOG in a game. No-fence on FotOG vs Terrible Experiment. If you want to knock yourself out (or even get devoured) with it, knock yourself out .

thanks for the reply. i just want to add that the terrible experiment is a horrible card to draw first... i guess its just luck but the first four monsters placed were some of the hardest ones.

Jambly Ho-Tep said:

By first, you mean during the Mythos phase of turn 1 right? As the pre-game Mythos card can't be a Rumor. And I put 5 monsters on my TTE, maybe yours is an easier copy .

I say "no" as well. In fact, I think the upcoming revised FAQ also says "no." I can't remember specifically.

Note that the very first Mythos card of the game can't be a Rumor. You have to discard and draw again if it's a rumor.

i think the ruling was that monsters on misc u. during that rumor arent actually on the board, they only are fought as if they were, and as such they can't be targted by the flute.

Yeah, I second that.

Text on Terrible Experiment: "When this card enters play, place 5 monsters from the cup on it. Any player may choose to fight one or more of these monsters while in the Miskatonic U. streets during the Arkham Encounter Phase. If defeated, they are claimed as monster trophies. These monsters do not move, are not considered on the board, and do not count against the monster limit."

Text on Flute: "Lose 3 Sanity and 3 Stamina and discard Flute of the Outer Gods before making a Combat check to defeat all monsters in your current area. This does not affect Ancient Ones."

There is no respect in which the monsters from TTE are "in your current area". They're not even on the board. So FotOG won't affect them. I really hope the FAQ ends up saying the same thing, otherwise I will be tearing my hair out and howling in lunatic rage once again.

As for whether you can lose the san/stam and go mad and still have the FotOG effect go off: I think the answer is also no. This is one of the most vague areas of the cardbase for the game: the distinction between "losses" and "costs". Tthere's no consistent phrasing on AH cards to tell you what counts as a cost that needs to be paid and what is simply a loss that can be negated. Quite often the word "lose" or "discard" is used even if the effect is meant to require "payment" of the full amount. Usually a good guideline is that it's a cost if the card says "lose X to do Y", which FotOG does. Tbh it's total anarchy and all you can really do is try to guess the intent of each individual card.

Well, since spells still take effect even if their sanity cost drives you insane, I'd say that the Flute still takes effect if you are insane/unconscious/devoured. Additionally, the 3 sanity and 3 stamina is a loss, not a cost, meaning that it is an effect of using the flute, not a prerequisite. In that case, you can use the flute if you have 2 sanity, or 1 stamina, etc. In fact, you can use a special ability or item to cancel all the loss, and still have the Flute take effect.

Thoughts on this interpretation? I know I've thrown a lot out there.

With all due respect, I disagree with the hair-splitting over use of Flute.

Whether "on the board" (whatever that means) or not, they are at a LOCATION. So use it, and kill them off.

Problem with the Flute is that you lose three stamina and three sanity to make it work. Some investigators may not have the resources to use it.

You will find persons posting on the forum here who are always going to go against the player. "No, you can't use this. No, you can't use that."

This is just a study in psychology. The glass is always half empty.

Ours is always half full.

Tibs said:

There are cards where a simple "discard" effect is also defined as a cost which can't be ignored. One example is Finn Edwards and his Bank Loan. A strict reading of Finn implies that he has nothing to fear from defaulting on his loan because he never has to discard items anyway. However I think KW explained that the discarding effect caused by the Bank Loan is considered to be equivalent to a "spend" or a "pay" or a "cost"; you have the choice of SPENDING a dollar, or SPENDING all your items, and the only way to get out of that is to not have any items. In other words, there are two distinct types of "discard" and most cards don't tell you which one they're using. All bets are off. It's anarchy.

It seems to me like the Flute of the Outer Gods should really say "spend". The troublesome thing is that the word "to" seems to imply a not-very-carefully-defined connection between the act of voluntarily losing 3 Sanity, and the effect of destroying all nearby monsters. But without involving the rules framework for what "spending" entails, I'm not sure if you can voluntarily lose 3 sanity if you don't have 3 sanity to begin with.

The same problem applies to spells. I'm not questioning that spells still work even if you go insane while casting them. But there are a few spells with San cost 2, so it is possible to be literally incapable of losing that much Sanity - because you're on Sanity 1 and you can't go below Sanity 0. (N.B. as soon as you hit zero, you move to the asylum and reset to 1 Sanity; this is implicitly an 'interrupt' effect which happens instantaneously.) This is getting a bit abstract tho.

Glasgow Scotland said:

I think "on the board" is one of the easier bits of game terminology. It means on the game board itself and not things that are elsewhere. (If "on the board" can include anything that's laid out on your table for the game, then the spell "Lure Monster" can be used to get monsters out of the monster cup, or steal back the Cultists from Rhan-Tegoth's sheet. Which, pretty obviously, it can't.) "On the board" means "on top of the big cardboard town plan thing, as shown on page 4 of the rulebook." If you've got another way to interpret the phrase "on the board", I'd like to hear it.

Anyway, monsters from the Terrible Experiment are NOT in a location. The card specifically says to place them "on this card", and that card (like all active Mythos cards) is intended to be placed somewhere beside the board. If you're doing it by the book, the only thing on the Miskatonic U streets space is a little hexagonal 'activity' marker.

There are plenty of places where the AH rules contradict themselves or leave you with no clear way of resolving something. But this ain't one of 'em.

Glasgow Scotland said:

Not read much Lovecraft, I take it?

One problem that arises with such an interpretation is that Michael McGlen and Harvey Walters reduce part of the sanity/stamina loss, so they can't use the Flute. That doesn't seem right.

Glasgow Scotland said:

yeah i think it was five, not four. and yeah, it was the 2nd mythos card drawn, not the first. but this was my first time ever playing... can't wait to play again

Glasgow Scotland said:

I like your optimism, lol. I'm scottish by ancestry myself, related to William Wallace, so I think I'll take your word for it and use my flute when I feel the need.

I'm quite certain the flute doesn't work on the Terrible Experiment, for reasons already given.

Whether you can use the flute when you have:

1) 3 sanity and/or 3 stamina.

2) Fewer than 3 sanity or fewer than 3 stamina.

Is a knotty question. I would definitely rule that in the case of 1), yes, no problem, the flute works fine (I wonder if anyone disagrees with that). But case 2) is a very difficult one. I wouldn't allow someone to use a spell with a Sanity cost of 2 if they had a Sanity score of 1, but I think based on a reading of the flute card, that I'd rule that it worked regardless. However. Bit subjective, really.

Jambly Ho-Tep said:

In philosophy, this is what they call the fallacy of the resort to an unqualified authority. Glasgow's scottish-themed user name does not make him an Arkham Horror rules authority (nor, I'll point out, does it even necessarily make him scottish), any more than Tiger Woods is a nutrition expert in the subfield of Wheaties.

I mean hey, it's just a game right? I never took a philosophy of gaming class, but I'm pretty sure the point is to have fun. I think after reading all these posts that its probably incorrect to be able to use the flute on the terrible experiment rumor, however, still not sure about the 3 sanity 3 stamina cost when you have less than 3 on both... and if you can do it, where would you go? the hospital or the asylum? would it be determined by which value you had less of? like if i had 2 stamina and 1 sanity and used the flute, i would go to the asylum because my sanity is lower? I like that this game makes one question their own sanity.

Jambly Ho-Tep said:

Nope. You would be devoured. If an effect reduces your sanity and stamina to 0 simultaneously, you are devoured.

awp832, as much as I like learning about logical fallacies, I also dislike seeing my fellow forum members get mangled by the ghost of William Wallace. I'd tread carefully...

Thanks avi, I never found that anywhere in the rules, but it makes sense. As for William Wallace, I've already spoken with him after a long and arduous process of obsessive ancestral telepathic communication from beyond the grave. He said yer all goin ta die. And it won't be done with a flute.

i think i accidently communicated with groundskeeper willy instead.. sorry everyone