Has anyone tried taking 2x Assault Frigates Mk II B with Expanded Hangar Bays along with 8x Y-Wing squadrons? That seems like it could be pretty potent, combined with X17 Turbolasers to help finish off whatever the 8 black dice started.

placed second in a tourny this weekend running 100 points of squadrons

I only have the one Assault Frigate, Or I'd run it this weekend.

hmmmm I will be right back. . .

+++ B-Wing and their escorts (297pts) +++

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (297pts) ++

+ Assault Frigate MkII (125pts) +

Assault Frigate Mark IIB (125pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Enhanced Armament (10pts), Expanded Hangar Bay (5pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), •Garm Bel Iblis (25pts)]

+ Nebulon-B Frigate (75pts) +

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (75pts) [X17 Turbolasers (6pts), •Raymus Antilles (7pts), •Yavaris (5pts)]

+ Squadrons (97pts) +

A-Wing Squadron (11pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

•Tycho Celchu (16pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Precision Strike]

Defense Objective [Hyperspace Assault]

Navigation Objective [intel Sweep]

I think superior positions works better for a squadron heavy list

Like many things in Armada, fighters are a Rock Paper Scissor element.

Additionally, they need to be supported if you plan on having them be a focus for your fleet. That doesn't mean they're weak. People are too focused on finding something that can be a stand-alone ship (ie the GSD) that they can spam so they don't need to learn how to use a variety of ships in conjunction with each other.

If you can't get fighters to work right, you're being lazy,

The problem with squadrons is that people are used to see them as ship in X-Wing. In Armada, they are a tool, a weapon, and a very powerful one.

I wouldn't say "lazy"

squadrons are, without a doubt, the most bizarre element of Armada

instead of acting on their own (which they can, mind, such as a minefield of B-wings) you're expected to share an activation with your capital ship. This leads to less but far more impressive "super" activations where you can down an enemy before it can even react (Yavaris being perfect for this)

the problem is that it might not be terribly intuitive at first

For example, how do you go about supporting squadrons against capital ships (Apart from obvious things like aces and Yavaris)? There aren't any "flight controllers" to give you extra bomber damage, so how?

why, you upgrade the capital ships, of course!

four rhymer bombers, for example, taken in a vacuum are still quite potent but those four black dice on top of whatever the commanding Star Destroyer gets in? That's just lethal, and any anti-ship upgrade you take on top of that will not diminish your ability to command squadrons, it'll just up the total damage you deal during your activation.

it's a bit backwards (especially because I've personally found things like Adar are far too specialized while things like EA still help out squadrons by letting you pile on more damage to whatever ship you're pouncing on) and takes some getting used to

upgrading for squadron v squadron combat is easier (flight controllers, away!!!!!!!!)

Personally, I never liked skewing in any direction in any miniature game I've played and Armada is no different. I find all squadron lists to be too stiff and all ship lists to be too boring. The compromise, then, is running both Yavaris and Paragon (rather than Gallant Haven) in the same list. Variety is the spice of life !

I think superior positions works better for a squadron heavy list

I like dangerous territory for my go to Blue objective

used to run intel, but **** having Gladiators know where you're going

with Dangerous, they still have an idea but they'll have to waste time and take damage just getting through the obstacles

if they don't, you get to run away with impunity

I like dangerous territory for my go to Blue objective

used to run intel, but **** having Gladiators know where you're going

with Dangerous, they still have an idea but they'll have to waste time and take damage just getting through the obstacles

if they don't, you get to run away with impunity

Intel Sweep allows me to demolish their objective GSD and then grab the tokens.

my big problem with intel is the marking of the objective ship as the only viable objective collector

the flexibility of Dangerous Territory (especially with obstacle immunity) really appeals to me

Yes, FFG hates fighters. They absolutely detest the idea of anybody giving them money in exchange for the product they spent time, effort and resources to design and produce.

I think that the Raider is really going to help Imperial bomber lists--I'm thinking about running two raiders with expanded hanger bays and Rymer and three bombers. This can act as an independent wing with something like and ISD and VSD or ISD and GSD as a separate battle group, if the opponent has no bombers. Because the raiders are so fast, they can hit and run at top speed along with the bombers and shotgun any fighters that try to engage the bombers. They may be able to slow the bombers down one turn, but they're really hard to kill in one turn and a small fighter screen is going to die from anti squadron plus the bombers attacks. Also, the raider's two evades combined with Rymer mean that the raiders will be fairly durable because they can stay at long range from their targets until they get in the rear while the bombers are already pounding the target.

If the enemy has bombers, then you use the raiders as anti-squadron and command the bombers with the ISD. If the enemy wants to shoot the raiders, go ahead, the ISD in close formation can rip them to shreds with the bombers and its main guns. Combined there would be at least six anti squadron dice, which will make short work of any enemy bomber wing. You could even bring one or two ties to ensure that the enemy bombers are engaged in a spot favorable to being shotgunned.

Heck, why not even two ISDs and two fighter/bomber wings? They can shred anything that gets in the rear if needed, or fly ahead and drop shields before the main attack. Only problem with this list is activation economy. That's why I like the other idea above, since it has four activations.

I think once we're at 400 points fighters will become more viable because you can run four or five activation lists and still have room for fighters and bombers.

Maybe not hate them, but they certainly don't love them!

Compared to what they can do ATM I feel fighters are a bit too expensive.

- That max 1/3 points on squadrons rule seems something of a joke, no?

No

- they need squadron commands to work

No, they do not, they are just extreemly effective WITH a squadron command. People who think otherwise are NOT planning ahead. You always need to invision where ships will be in 2-3 turns. If you're simply reacting to what just happened in the current turn, you're doing it wrong.

- squadron commands have limited range
Yes, because otherwise it would be overpower.

- each squadron command is a 'wasted' command (well, not completely wasted, but close to it)
You're obvisouly not playing very well then. If you use a squadron command on a ship that can activate 3 squadrons that is THREE seperate attacks against a capital ship. THREE dice rolls means that while the damage might not be high, it will small but it is HIGHLY unlikle your opponent will use their defensive tokens to stop one damage which means for every hit your squadrons do, it's one less shield your capital ship has to punch through, and one less shield your opponent can redirect to.

- squadrons get engaged easily
Yes, if they didn't I would spam tie fighters and destroy your shields as noted above. Trust me, you would be bitching if they did not become engaged.

- squadrons may be the premier squadron-killers, but they still take several rounds to do it

See above, if my ties blew through your screen in one round you would be bitching about that.

- squadrons have limited range compared to capital ships.
Not really, they fly pretty fast (except b-wings) and have 360 degree line of sight.

- squadrons can only fire at limited range
Would you like them to be able to shoot from across the map? No.

- squadron upgrade cards mitigate some of the above, but are costly

It's all part of fleet building, cost / benifit.

- they don't give you activation

Moot point, it's not x-wing, this is Armada.

- they don't help with most of the objectives

Irrelevant. They are either a offensive tool or a defensive tool.

- they gain little benefit from admirals

That we currently have, yes. We don't know what others are coming out. And irrelevent, would not be wise to have a commander which benifited 1/3 of your fleet and who were also the easiest to kill off.

- they don't help if all your capitals are destroyed

Then use them as a screen to prevent the other squadrons from engaging your capital ships, or use them to bomb the other capital ships before yours get destoryed.

It's not any one - or two - things that limits squadrons. But all of the above. The sum total is that I'm very skeptical of squadrons.
You're playing squadrons wrong, and are not thinking about the big picture.

There are FAR too many people on this forum who are very very narrow minded in the sense they are only looking at the number of dice being rolled by a squardon and not thinking of the whole turn. With squadrons you will get 3,4,5 dice against a capital ship followed by 1-2 shots from your capital ship. That's up to five sheilds your capital ship won't have to deal with or less defense tokens for your capital ship to deal with.

On top of all of that, the number of people thinking that FFG would actually destory fighters playability before we have even seen what the MC30 can do, not to mention the Wave II Squadron pack is baffeling. If you took a few seconds to think it though, why would the raider say "as if it were engaged by two squadrons?" Sounds like some abilities are going to change how engagment can work, or how you can become disengaged via a new mechanic in one of the expansion packs. It would mean that you would need a larger fighter screen to stop bombers, making it easier for a player to split their force up and make the screen too small to stop all threats.

The game is not broken.

I think superior positions works better for a squadron heavy list

While you are right, B-Wings are slow and unlikely to get to the rear. However, one can use them to drop shields for a nice punch from the activating carrier

Wish you could have seen my tourny this weekend got 135 off of SP 75 from b wings

I think superior positions works better for a squadron heavy list

While you are right, B-Wings are slow and unlikely to get to the rear. However, one can use them to drop shields for a nice punch from the activating carrier

Wish you could have seen my tourny this weekend got 135 off of SP 75 from b wings

I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying that I prefer this play style.

It also does not help that I prefer being first player, and even more so when I run squadrons

I think superior positions works better for a squadron heavy list

While you are right, B-Wings are slow and unlikely to get to the rear. However, one can use them to drop shields for a nice punch from the activating carrier

Wish you could have seen my tourny this weekend got 135 off of SP 75 from b wings

I had a total of over 500 points after ships and mov of 395ish so yea, my fighters were pretty great:)

I think superior positions works better for a squadron heavy list

While you are right, B-Wings are slow and unlikely to get to the rear. However, one can use them to drop shields for a nice punch from the activating carrier

Wish you could have seen my tourny this weekend got 135 off of SP 75 from b wings

I had a game in my last tournament (last weekend) that I gained 23 superior position tokens...

I had a total of over 500 points after ships and mov of 395ish so yea, my fighters were pretty great:)

I think superior positions works better for a squadron heavy list

While you are right, B-Wings are slow and unlikely to get to the rear. However, one can use them to drop shields for a nice punch from the activating carrier

Wish you could have seen my tourny this weekend got 135 off of SP 75 from b wings

I had a game in my last tournament (last weekend) that I gained 23 superior position tokens...

I had a total of over 500 points after ships and mov of 395ish so yea, my fighters were pretty great:)

Which were attacking at medium range right?

Maybe not hate them, but they certainly don't love them!

Compared to what they can do ATM I feel fighters are a bit too expensive.

- That max 1/3 points on squadrons rule seems something of a joke, no?

No

- they need squadron commands to work

No, they do not, they are just extreemly effective WITH a squadron command. People who think otherwise are NOT planning ahead. You always need to invision where ships will be in 2-3 turns. If you're simply reacting to what just happened in the current turn, you're doing it wrong.

- squadron commands have limited rangeYes, because otherwise it would be overpower.

- each squadron command is a 'wasted' command (well, not completely wasted, but close to it)You're obvisouly not playing very well then. If you use a squadron command on a ship that can activate 3 squadrons that is THREE seperate attacks against a capital ship. THREE dice rolls means that while the damage might not be high, it will small but it is HIGHLY unlikle your opponent will use their defensive tokens to stop one damage which means for every hit your squadrons do, it's one less shield your capital ship has to punch through, and one less shield your opponent can redirect to.

- squadrons get engaged easilyYes, if they didn't I would spam tie fighters and destroy your shields as noted above. Trust me, you would be bitching if they did not become engaged.

- squadrons may be the premier squadron-killers, but they still take several rounds to do it

See above, if my ties blew through your screen in one round you would be bitching about that.

- squadrons have limited range compared to capital ships.Not really, they fly pretty fast (except b-wings) and have 360 degree line of sight.

- squadrons can only fire at limited rangeWould you like them to be able to shoot from across the map? No.

- squadron upgrade cards mitigate some of the above, but are costly

It's all part of fleet building, cost / benifit.

- they don't give you activation

Moot point, it's not x-wing, this is Armada.

- they don't help with most of the objectives

Irrelevant. They are either a offensive tool or a defensive tool.

- they gain little benefit from admirals

That we currently have, yes. We don't know what others are coming out. And irrelevent, would not be wise to have a commander which benifited 1/3 of your fleet and who were also the easiest to kill off.

- they don't help if all your capitals are destroyed

Then use them as a screen to prevent the other squadrons from engaging your capital ships, or use them to bomb the other capital ships before yours get destoryed.

It's not any one - or two - things that limits squadrons. But all of the above. The sum total is that I'm very skeptical of squadrons.You're playing squadrons wrong, and are not thinking about the big picture.

There are FAR too many people on this forum who are very very narrow minded in the sense they are only looking at the number of dice being rolled by a squardon and not thinking of the whole turn. With squadrons you will get 3,4,5 dice against a capital ship followed by 1-2 shots from your capital ship. That's up to five sheilds your capital ship won't have to deal with or less defense tokens for your capital ship to deal with.

On top of all of that, the number of people thinking that FFG would actually destory fighters playability before we have even seen what the MC30 can do, not to mention the Wave II Squadron pack is baffeling. If you took a few seconds to think it though, why would the raider say "as if it were engaged by two squadrons?" Sounds like some abilities are going to change how engagment can work, or how you can become disengaged via a new mechanic in one of the expansion packs. It would mean that you would need a larger fighter screen to stop bombers, making it easier for a player to split their force up and make the screen too small to stop all threats.

The game is not broken.

Didn't claim the game is broken. Didn't even claim fighters are useless. Just slightly underpowered for their price.

I did, however, point out some limitations/challenges with regards to fighters. There are quite a few IMO.

Anyways: I use them in all my lists, but I rarely go squadron-heavy. Just enough to be a credible screen or mild offensive threat. Usually.

If I could have a wish granted: I'd love for squadrons to be able to shoot-move in the squadron phase.

Failing that, a very small decrease in cost, a point or two per squadron.

Neither is going to happen. So I hope wave 2 will open up some new, exciting options for squadrons.

One more thing:

- the squadron token is pretty much the worst kind of token there is

Huh? It's actually one of my favorites. I can order a squadron in to hit some shields before my ship attacks. It is stronger than a concentrate fire token.

My fav is the Maneuver token.

Re the squadron token - it's not that it's useless, but most of the time I'll be sending fighters out from ships with a high squadron value... it seems very limiting to have to set up my Vic or AF to bank tokens just to get 1 extra fighter away. With Tarkin the story is slightly different...to a lesser degree with Garm. And of course Yavaris + Raymus. But generally speaking I find I use the squadron token least of all.

I do have to say, regarding the # of squadrons I started this game thinking I needed a lot

after the saturday tournament, though, turns out 4 B-wings were all I ever needed

so there is something to be said for going overboard on squadrons, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with squadrons being underpowered. The relationship between squadrons and cap ships mandates an effective ratio be maintained and, just like anything in any wargame, have a clear defined goal to acomplish

Maybe not hate them, but they certainly don't love them!

Compared to what they can do ATM I feel fighters are a bit too expensive.

- they need squadron commands to work

- squadron commands have limited range

- each squadron command is a 'wasted' command (well, not completely wasted, but close to it)

- squadrons get engaged easily

- squadrons may be the premier squadron-killers, but they still take several rounds to do it

- squadrons have limited range compared to capital ships

- squadrons can only fire at limited range

- squadron upgrade cards mitigate some of the above, but are costly

- they don't give you activation

- they don't help with most of the objectives

- they gain little benefit from admirals

- they don't help if all your capitals are destroyed

It's not any one - or two - things that limits squadrons. But all of the above. The sum total is that I'm very skeptical of squadrons.

That max 1/3 points on squadrons rule seems something of a joke, no?

If this is a list of squadron limitations, one that all players must be aware of to play squadron successfully, might there not be a list of advantages as well? Brainstorming anyone?

Objectives spring to mind. Certain objectives reward use of squadrons. I've also had some success (as 2nd player) in 'forcing' my opponent into picking stuff like Advance Gunnery, just because the alternatives were worse.

Longest attack range in the game. A-wings striking well forward of the main fleet - or even worse, TIE bombers with Rhymer (and Corrupter!)

Ability to soften up the target before a ship-strike (mentioned by several people).

The "B-wing wall" - an effective counter to black-dice throwing ships.

More?

@Green Knight

The Rogue keyword appears to allow some of the Scum and Villainy ships to move and shoot entirely on their own. I don't remember if we have a clear shot of the text to know which phase it happens in.

As for positives.

People sometimes forget that during placement 2 squadrons can be placed instead of a ship. If you have a CR-90 and 4 A-wings you can force up to 4 enemy placements before placing something slower.

I haven't played to many games and I was pretty dissapointed with the x-wings dmg output vs enemy victories. However the b-wing combined with yavaris is insane if my opponent dosen't bring enough fighter screens.

Last game I got to shoot twice with 1 b-wing and 1 did a move and shoot. So 3 blue, 3 black and 3 red from nebulon front was pretty okay for just one activation with a small ship.

They might be worse in a rebel mirror since they probably got alot of fast ships. I don't recommend just running bombers straight at the enemy fleet however. I did lose a wedge led 4 x-wing squadron vs 4 ties squadrons + 1 victory anti fighter barrage so they really need that squadron command.