Fighters are already limited in that they can only move OR shoot if they don't have a squadron command. Makes them difficult to use unless closely supported by a command ship. On top of that, if you wipe out the ships, it doesn't matter how many fighters are left on the table, the only thing that scores are the ships.

Now we have the Raider which will be devastating to the squadrons that do come into play. 2 of these can potentially wipe the table from fighters in a single round of combat.

What needs to happen is the Rebellion needs a new admiral that gives some bonus to fighters. For instance, maybe ships can issue squadron commands at long range. That might keep fighters in the battle.

Fighters are already limited in that they can only move OR shoot if they don't have a squadron command. Makes them difficult to use unless closely supported by a command ship. On top of that, if you wipe out the ships, it doesn't matter how many fighters are left on the table, the only thing that scores are the ships.

Now we have the Raider which will be devastating to the squadrons that do come into play. 2 of these can potentially wipe the table from fighters in a single round of combat.

What needs to happen is the Rebellion needs a new admiral that gives some bonus to fighters. For instance, maybe ships can issue squadron commands at long range. That might keep fighters in the battle.

It feels like FFG is making sure that they can grow squadrons while maintaining the focus in capital ships.

Even so, I have been running squadrons to some amazing effects.

Ya there is probably some crazy stuff coming for fighters...I hope.

Maybe not hate them, but they certainly don't love them!

Compared to what they can do ATM I feel fighters are a bit too expensive.

- they need squadron commands to work

- squadron commands have limited range

- each squadron command is a 'wasted' command (well, not completely wasted, but close to it)

- squadrons get engaged easily

- squadrons may be the premier squadron-killers, but they still take several rounds to do it

- squadrons have limited range compared to capital ships

- squadrons can only fire at limited range

- squadron upgrade cards mitigate some of the above, but are costly

- they don't give you activation

- they don't help with most of the objectives

- they gain little benefit from admirals

- they don't help if all your capitals are destroyed

It's not any one - or two - things that limits squadrons. But all of the above. The sum total is that I'm very skeptical of squadrons.

That max 1/3 points on squadrons rule seems something of a joke, no?

One more thing:

- the squadron token is pretty much the worst kind of token there is

I like the squadron command. Using just Y-Wings here but 3 extra black dice on top of my normal attack. . . Seems good.

I don't know about squadrons at large, but B-wing tear poor imperial ships apart on a regular basis

don't really care if FFG loves them or not. I love 'em and they love eating your gladiators

also been on the receiving end of rhymer ball; it ain't pretty (and it's easily the longest ranged attack in the game, compared to the B-wing's strongest with yavaris)

but yes, we know we're getting insane ****. How? Jan Ors exists

Command yes, token no.

Edit: I find the biggest problem with squadrons on the rebel side to be in mirror matches, actually. I have used them with at least solid effect against imperial lists (especially with no squadrons of their own), but most rebel lists are fast enough to defend against squadrons by just flying away from them. When your opponent moving normally turns into a hard counter for anything other than A-Wings, it is... sub-optimal.

I'll admit squadron tokens are generally unhelpful. But try thinking of this - If you used a squadron command instead of a concentrate fire command, think about the extra damage you may be doing to enemy ships. With bombers you could do an extra three or four times the damage you would do with 1 extra die.

I have to agree. I honestly don't know why squadrons are limited to 1/3 the number of points...

Responses:

- they need squadron commands to work

They Don't. You just need to have prior positioning and the numbers in set for what you intend to accomplish for them.

- squadron commands have limited range

Range is irrelevant. Resistance is Futile.

- each squadron command is a 'wasted' command (well, not completely wasted, but close to it)

No more wasted than an Engineering Command for a ship that hasn't been damaged, or a Navigate command where you're moving straight ahead.

- squadrons get engaged easily
Yep. Sure do. They also avoid being engaged easily, by sticking around those Handy Obstacles you and your opponent have spent time carefully placing on the battlefield in advance. They also get un-engaged easily when you're able to coordinate where everything needs to be and remove your opponents, because, hey, squadrons are bad and no sane person ever takes more than a couple of A-Wings or Interceptors.

- squadrons may be the premier squadron-killers, but they still take several rounds to do it

Again, only if you're piecemeal.

- squadrons have limited range compared to capital ships

But for their points are very efficient at what dice they do bring at range. Pre-Plan, put them where they need to be BEFORE they need to be there.

- squadrons can only fire at limited range

This is identical to above, and thus, irrelevant.

- squadron upgrade cards mitigate some of the above, but are costly

So are Advanced Projectors, ECM, and hell, even ACM.

- they don't give you activation

One first legitimate point, they don't. BUT, they can help (or hinder) your enemy by Funnelling their activations.

- they don't help with most of the objectives

But can stop the enemy getting theirs. Always fun putting a Wing of B-Wings on the enemy's Transit line for Intel Sweep and ending their day right there.

- they gain little benefit from admirals

Debateable, Admiral Dependant. Some Admirals help your squadrons through their ships (such as Garm banking a Squad token - No lost command there!)

- they don't help if all your capitals are destroyed

Neither do any other Upgrade card.

I personally see squadrons as an exceptionally flexible toolbox. Do I expect my Squadrons to kill that enemy VSD (or Demolisher) before it gets a chance to fire? No. But, I do expect them to strip its shields so I can hit it with my ships. I do expect them to park on the Contested outpost and dare my enemy to move forward to deal with them. I do expect them to work in conjunction with my ships to quickly isolate and eradicate enemy squadrons.

I am loving Squadrons. But I have realistic expectations for them, based on what points I devote to them - just like any other upgrade card.

Would anyone think it would be unbalancing if fighters could fire than move in the squadron phase? Gives them a chance to harry ships and peck away at them, requiring them to take their own fighters to keep them off their backs. Fighters engaged vs fighters staying the same.

the whole squadrons not moving and shooting in the squadron phase is probably less about balance and more about game design focus

this game is meant to be about the capital ships, while the squadrons are there to act as support (powerful support, but still support)

I know for sure that if my B-wings could shoot and then move, I could just leave them in the middle of the table while running my nebs around whilly nilly and never having to risk engagement with an opposing star destroyer. While a VSD can't ever escape a minefield of Bs, the nimbler GSDs can if they don't have any capital ship support them.

we are getting Rogue squadrons that move and shoot on their own, but they'll probably cost premium for their independence (Especially because they can be used with ships that are geared purely for anti-ship, such as cr-90 spam, without worrying about the lack of squadron commands)

Fighters are already limited in that they can only move OR shoot if they don't have a squadron command. Makes them difficult to use unless closely supported by a command ship. On top of that, if you wipe out the ships, it doesn't matter how many fighters are left on the table, the only thing that scores are the ships.

Now we have the Raider which will be devastating to the squadrons that do come into play. 2 of these can potentially wipe the table from fighters in a single round of combat.

What needs to happen is the Rebellion needs a new admiral that gives some bonus to fighters. For instance, maybe ships can issue squadron commands at long range. That might keep fighters in the battle.

I fail to see how 2 raiders with their close-range dual black or black/blue armament should "wipe the table in a single round of combat" not going to happen, unless your enemy flings A-wing swarms at you, at which point you might consider fighting someone with a basic understanding for the game in the first place.

Raiders could become a bane for squadrons, but they both lack range and staying power. You simply will not be able to fly them that offensively, as there only real defense is the two evades. And you will also not get too many squadrons in firing range.. so wait with all the doom and gloom, please.

A Raider has, what, 2 Shields and 4 Hull points, and lacks Redirects... Thats 6 Booms to kill it... It throws 2 Dice.

A B-Wing has 5 Hull, and lacks Redirect. Thats 5 Booms to kill it, and Criticals count for Nought.

They're almost *exactly* as survivable. Only one only costs 14 points.

Yes, a Raider can engage Multiple B-Wings in one Arc... But the Saturation of that B-Wing attack within that Arc is death to the Raider.

I mean, even on equivelant points, we're looking at 3 Squadrons of B-Wings... Sub 45 points.

Three B-Wings attacking one arc of a Raider could do as much as 6, but more likely, its around 3 damage, and may indeed be a Critical hit.

The Raider plinks off a Hull point on the 3 B-Wings.

The Raider has a Choice then. It sticks around, in which case, it best hope its able to spin a fresh shield side to bear, because the B-Wings will do it...

OR, the Raider absolutely Buggers off... In which case, the B-Wings have probably won the Engagement - they've lost very little, and they've taken a chunk out of the Raider for it to be pegged by Ships later.

Raiders are fragile when their Evades mean nothing.

indeed

it seems the Raider was designed exactly as ffg mentioned in their article: a substitute for tie fighter screens to support your tie bombers while still throwing out palpable anti-ship dice

trying to engage B-wings?...well, that's kind of exactly what your opponent wants

you block a bunch of A-wings and they'll hurt like the dickens, but that's a bunch of A-wings that aren't pestering your bombers

The squadron token seems to be very unappreciated. It can be a total life safer when used properly. It can also be your main method of squadron activation. If you use Iblis or Tarkin, you can bank early squadron tokens. If you have an equal number of ships and squadrons, all your squadrons can be activated in a round through the use of tokens, meaning you can spam other commands and have the flexibility of instant vs preprogrammed squadron activations.

You don't need Iblis or Tarkin for this if you want to bank a first turn token. But that does mean your not banking a different token (like a nav token).

the whole squadrons not moving and shooting in the squadron phase is probably less about balance and more about game design focus

this game is meant to be about the capital ships, while the squadrons are there to act as support (powerful support, but still support)

I know for sure that if my B-wings could shoot and then move, I could just leave them in the middle of the table while running my nebs around whilly nilly and never having to risk engagement with an opposing star destroyer. While a VSD can't ever escape a minefield of Bs, the nimbler GSDs can if they don't have any capital ship support them.

we are getting Rogue squadrons that move and shoot on their own, but they'll probably cost premium for their independence (Especially because they can be used with ships that are geared purely for anti-ship, such as cr-90 spam, without worrying about the lack of squadron commands)

Well that is fair enough point on the focus thing, but even then they do feel a little weak in my opinion, it just feels wrong to me that the capital ships are roaring off whilst the supposedly faster fighters are left trailing after them without getting a shot off. (i know squadron commands etc, but i'm sure you get what im driving at)

In your B-Wing scenario thats where the Imperial fighter has to throw his TIE's in, tie the B's up and let the ships move too far out of range for the B's to do their damage, now the capitals can do that just by moving in a turn, rather then having to be countered directly.

One more thing:

- the squadron token is pretty much the worst kind of token there is

Huh? It's actually one of my favorites. I can order a squadron in to hit some shields before my ship attacks. It is stronger than a concentrate fire token.

In your B-Wing scenario thats where the Imperial fighter has to throw his TIE's in, tie the B's up and let the ships move too far out of range for the B's to do their damage, now the capitals can do that just by moving in a turn, rather then having to be countered directly.

if you're countering squadrons with squadrons, then squadrons are a significant enough portion of the game wouldn't you think?

seems they're quite loved

because I've taken four B-wings against imp all ship-spam, and by god the poor bastards just could not cope

bring your ties, guys, they're in the game for a reason!

(the solution to Tie engagement is anti-squadron fire and just popping yavaris for anti-squadron attacks; ties die like chumps and need to be well coordinated with GSDs to have the desired impact. If, for some reason, the rebel player crutches entirely on B-wings then engagement is a sure fire victory but with 300 points it's not that difficult to fit in a fatal number of them and either a rebel A-wing screen or simply a powerful anti-ship ship such as Paragon)

One more thing:

- the squadron token is pretty much the worst kind of token there is

Huh? It's actually one of my favorites. I can order a squadron in to hit some shields before my ship attacks. It is stronger than a concentrate fire token.

In your B-Wing scenario thats where the Imperial fighter has to throw his TIE's in, tie the B's up and let the ships move too far out of range for the B's to do their damage, now the capitals can do that just by moving in a turn, rather then having to be countered directly.

if you're countering squadrons with squadrons, then squadrons are a significant enough portion of the game wouldn't you think?

seems they're quite loved

because I've taken four B-wings against imp all ship-spam, and by god the poor bastards just could not cope

bring your ties, guys, they're in the game for a reason!

(the solution to Tie engagement is anti-squadron fire and just popping yavaris for anti-squadron attacks; ties die like chumps and need to be well coordinated with GSDs to have the desired impact. If, for some reason, the rebel player crutches entirely on B-wings then engagement is a sure fire victory but with 300 points it's not that difficult to fit in a fatal number of them and either a rebel A-wing screen or simply a powerful anti-ship ship such as Paragon)

+++ The B Whale roll (298pts) +++

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (298pts) ++

+ Assault Frigate MkII (215pts) +

Assault Frigate Mark IIB (120pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Enhanced Armament (10pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), •Garm Bel Iblis (25pts)]

Assault Frigate Mark IIB (95pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Enhanced Armament (10pts), Gunnery Team (7pts)]

+ Squadrons (83pts) +

A-Wing Squadron (11pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

•Tycho Celchu (16pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Precision Strike]

Defense Objective [Fire Lanes]

Navigation Objective [intel Sweep]

I only have the one Assault Frigate, Or I'd run it this weekend.

I only have the one Assault Frigate, Or I'd run it this weekend.

+++ B-Wing and their escorts (297pts) +++

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (297pts) ++

+ Assault Frigate MkII (125pts) +

Assault Frigate Mark IIB (125pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Enhanced Armament (10pts), Expanded Hangar Bay (5pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), •Garm Bel Iblis (25pts)]

+ Nebulon-B Frigate (75pts) +

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (75pts) [X17 Turbolasers (6pts), •Raymus Antilles (7pts), •Yavaris (5pts)]

+ Squadrons (97pts) +

A-Wing Squadron (11pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

•Tycho Celchu (16pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Precision Strike]

Defense Objective [Hyperspace Assault]

Navigation Objective [intel Sweep]