He fully deserved the terrible MoV.

This isn't just about MoV. The BroBots lost because of the scoring. Two half dead BroBots lost to Miranda. I don't think this is the same thing your group has been doing.

That's exactly my point. The guy had two BroBots chasing one opposing ship that is quite a bit slower than either Bot and he couldn't kill it. As a dedicated BroBot pilot, I am having trouble fathoming how this is possible. The only explanation I can think of is a total misplay on the part of the BroBot pilot, in which case he deserved the loss.

Also, why the uproar about this when three full health B-wings have been losing matches to 1-health Hans and Chirpys for months now?

EDIT: And yes, this is almost exactly what my group has been doing. We limited it to large ships worth 40 points or more, but for the sake of this scenario it would have resulted in the same situation. The difference seems to be that our players are willing to actually go for the kill rather than throw the game by playing over-defensively.

But it's nice to know that someone on the other side of the world knows what's happening at my group better than I do.

Sorry, I didn't mean any offense.

You specifically said MoV. It sounded like we were talking about 2 different things. Seeing as there has been confusion over the issue I was just trying to point out the difference.

He fully deserved the terrible MoV.

This isn't just about MoV. The BroBots lost because of the scoring. Two half dead BroBots lost to Miranda. I don't think this is the same thing your group has been doing.

That's exactly my point. The guy had two BroBots chasing one opposing ship that is quite a bit slower than either Bot and he couldn't kill it. As a dedicated BroBot pilot, I am having trouble fathoming how this is possible. The only explanation I can think of is a total misplay on the part of the BroBot pilot, in which case he deserved the loss.

Also, why the uproar about this when three full health B-wings have been losing matches to 1-health Hans and Chirpys for months now?

EDIT: And yes, this is almost exactly what my group has been doing. We limited it to large ships worth 40 points or more, but for the sake of this scenario it would have resulted in the same situation. The difference seems to be that our players are willing to actually go for the kill rather than throw the game by playing over-defensively.

But it's nice to know that someone on the other side of the world knows what's happening at my group better than I do.

Sorry, I didn't mean any offense.

You specifically said MoV. It sounded like we were talking about 2 different things. Seeing as there has been confusion over the issue I was just trying to point out the difference.

I must apologise as well. In fact, I'm the only one who should be. I misread the OP's score and got far too snarky in my response to you.

The time limit according to the Tournament Rules is now 75 minutes. There is no more leeway for the TOs to change the time limit. Given another 5 minutes for another round or two he might have been able to kill Miranda.

In official tournaments yes, at the Casual level the store and TO still have final say on just about everything.

What was the length of rounds you were playing? Why couldn't he kill off Miranda?

70 minutes.

I played King Maker after loosing my 2nd ship. I had one ship down to the half way mark, so I ran Miranda in such a way that I could regen shields and he was getting bad (or no) shots at me unless he took big risks. At time, Miranda was alive, and both of is IGs were at or bellow half health.

Next someone is going to tell me I did something wrong.... but what more could I do? Miranda had to play to her strengths at the end and see if she could get lucky.

You didn't do anything wrong at all. I am, however, amazed that someone can misplay so badly as to allow Miranda to escape with not one, but both BroBots still up and running. Especially since it sounds like you weren't SLAMing so much as to get your shields back. He fully deserved the terrible MoV loss.

Also, as to the topic of the post, my local league has been playing with almost the exact same rule for close to four months. We haven't had any complaints, and nor have we seen big ships disappear from the face of the earth. BroBots and fat turrets are still rightly feared, Palpatine Shuttles are starting to arrive in force now that people are realising how good they are, Firesprays still make an appearance, and people are still experimenting with the Hound's Tooth. The new rule is fine.

Thank you for this post. This helps. The game has changed. I'm not going to throw my hands up and say "I QUIT!" I love this game. Perhaps you are right. The new rules force action and that should be more fun. I will keep this mind set for next time and spread that message. I'm hopping to feel the same way you do about the new MOV by the end of the next tournament.

He fully deserved the terrible MoV.

This isn't just about MoV. The BroBots lost because of the scoring. Two half dead BroBots lost to Miranda. I don't think this is the same thing your group has been doing.

That's exactly my point. The guy had two BroBots chasing one opposing ship that is quite a bit slower than either Bot and he couldn't kill it. As a dedicated BroBot pilot, I am having trouble fathoming how this is possible. The only explanation I can think of is a total misplay on the part of the BroBot pilot, in which case he deserved the loss.

Also, why the uproar about this when three full health B-wings have been losing matches to 1-health Hans and Chirpys for months now?

EDIT: And yes, this is almost exactly what my group has been doing. We limited it to large ships worth 40 points or more, but for the sake of this scenario it would have resulted in the same situation. The difference seems to be that our players are willing to actually go for the kill rather than throw the game by playing over-defensively.

But it's nice to know that someone on the other side of the world knows what's happening at my group better than I do.

Sorry, I didn't mean any offense.

You specifically said MoV. It sounded like we were talking about 2 different things. Seeing as there has been confusion over the issue I was just trying to point out the difference.

I must apologise as well. In fact, I'm the only one who should be. I misread the OP's score and got far too snarky in my response to you.

It's all good. I've gotten way to snarky at times on this forum recently too. :-)

People keep saying the new rules nerf vader Crew but I fail to see it. If I'm running a Doomshuttle, I EXPECT it to die. You're not exactly building a points fortress when you stick a card that damages yourself on the ship. Thus I don't give a crap if you score half points for my shuttle at the end because quite frankly if it's still alive by that point in going to be chuffed to bits. You're not playing the MoV game with a Doomshuttle list; your playing a destroy my opponent before I destroy myself list.

The only other ship Vader pops up on is the decimator, I.e. One of the fat PWT ships this change is intended to bring in line with other ships seems as its the most popular imperial ship (other than Fel) appearing in the top brackets of tourneys. Seems as this ship is intended to be effected by the change directly, I don't think you can call a card that is resultantly worse o it on that ship a next to the upgrade card itself.

TL; DR? Vader is still a boss who says you can stick your MoV where the sun doesn't shine along with this auto-crit non-believers!

People keep saying the new rules nerf vader Crew but I fail to see it. If I'm running a Doomshuttle, I EXPECT it to die.

I thought this too. How often are Doom Shuttles surviving till end game for this to be such an issue?

Got to agree with all the other posters here; two BroBots should have wiped the floor with Miranda. If your opponent flew conservatively and lost, then that's on them.

And again, this is no different than three full-health Academy Pilots losing to a 1-hull remaining Fat Han prior to the change.

Suck it up, fatties: you're no longer going to be able to play hide and seek - you're going to have to work for your victories now.

The opponent won, but he didn't get a full win as I understand the OP.

He fully deserved the terrible MoV.

This isn't just about MoV. The BroBots lost because of the scoring. Two half dead BroBots lost to Miranda. I don't think this is the same thing your group has been doing.

Again, the badly damaged Brobots actually won this game. Maybe they were flying conservatively because they would have put themselves in danger and actually lost one?

Not really. I doubt many games involving Firesprays go to time. And really, that is where the rule comes into play. Large ships just have to ensure they kill everything. I fail to see an issue with that.

The rule will be significant (and I don't mean that as a negative) in all games since MoV matters for the record where the cut takes place. In this case, the IG-88 player, even had he killed Miranda, would have lost 50 points of MoV under the current system as compared to before it. That's not a complaint, but it is going to keep big ships from having such a huge MoV advantage, even when they don't go to time.

Overall, I think that we're going to both closer game scores and MoV because of this and I think it's a good thing since it will more often reflect the actual game state (whether or not a game goes to time).

This complaining thread is pretty bad.

The op basically states that large ships still win a lot just not as much points wise because of mov.

Seriously, changes to mov doesn't make a large base ship weaker or stronger it only effects a broken tournament based scoring system. Large based ships still perform the same. If they are still doing well who cares if it's by a mile or a few inches?

However I do agree with everyone else the rule would of been better on all ships over 40pts. However that just moves the goalposts so that 39 points is the sweet spot. Which isn't necessarily bad because it still solves the issue of point fortresses having a massive scoring advantage.

So far the only real offenders to small ship fortress in is kwing and punisher. The punisher doesn't bother me the majority of its points hoarding is ordinance which still isn't great. The only real kwing issue is Miranda which even with her ability is no where near as survivable as most large base ships. Basically my point is point fortressing is no where near as bad anymore. And for all the complaints about Miranda being the new 2 list point fortess queen that ship still isn't winning tournaments like pwt were.

People keep saying the new rules nerf vader Crew but I fail to see it. If I'm running a Doomshuttle, I EXPECT it to die.

I thought this too. How often are Doom Shuttles surviving till end game for this to be such an issue?

Accepting from a strategic standpoint that the shuttle is a likely loss is one thing. Determining whether it's tactically a good idea to hand your opponent 16 points to do 1 critical damage is another.

I don't think it's a nerf, but it makes the decision about whether to use him on any given attack much more nuanced.

Got to agree with all the other posters here; two BroBots should have wiped the floor with Miranda. If your opponent flew conservatively and lost, then that's on them.

And again, this is no different than three full-health Academy Pilots losing to a 1-hull remaining Fat Han prior to the change.

Suck it up, fatties: you're no longer going to be able to play hide and seek - you're going to have to work for your victories now.

The opponent won, but he didn't get a full win as I understand the OP.

He fully deserved the terrible MoV.

This isn't just about MoV. The BroBots lost because of the scoring. Two half dead BroBots lost to Miranda. I don't think this is the same thing your group has been doing.

Again, the badly damaged Brobots actually won this game. Maybe they were flying conservatively because they would have put themselves in danger and actually lost one?

Ok, I didn't read it that way at all. I thought that Miranda won. It's not exactly clear in the OP.

It doesn't change my opinion on the matter. As time moves on players using large base ships will start to better understand how they need to play.

In large part this is going to stop Fat Han, Dash or BroBots from playing run and hide in matches. Forcing engagement is always good.

...

...

Accepting from a strategic standpoint that the shuttle is a likely loss is one thing. Determining whether it's tactically a good idea to hand your opponent 16 points to do 1 critical damage is another.

I don't think it's a nerf, but it makes the decision about whether to use him on any given attack much more nuanced.

I'd accept 'slightly' more nuanced, but I don't see many situations where the point swing wouldn't be worth it.

Besides, it's also not about 'the shuttle being a likely loss'. It is the *only* reason to take a doom shuttle.

It can only be used 5 times, less if the opponent throws some damage at the shuttle. At what point do you not use the 24 point investment who's only purpose is die while pushing through critical hits? 4 times is okay, 3 is marginal, 2 is probably not worth it.

If you aren't committed to killing the shuttle, it's probably the wrong ship for your play style.

Is it wrong for me to see the OP and think, "Good, I hate BroBots anyways." ?

This complaining thread is pretty bad.
The op basically states that large ships still win a lot just not as much points wise because of mov.
Seriously, changes to mov doesn't make a large base ship weaker or stronger it only effects a broken tournament based scoring system. Large based ships still perform the same. If they are still doing well who cares if it's by a mile or a few inches?

However I do agree with everyone else the rule would of been better on all ships over 40pts. However that just moves the goalposts so that 39 points is the sweet spot. Which isn't necessarily bad because it still solves the issue of point fortresses having a massive scoring advantage.

So far the only real offenders to small ship fortress in is kwing and punisher. The punisher doesn't bother me the majority of its points hoarding is ordinance which still isn't great. The only real kwing issue is Miranda which even with her ability is no where near as survivable as most large base ships. Basically my point is point fortressing is no where near as bad anymore. And for all the complaints about Miranda being the new 2 list point fortess queen that ship still isn't winning tournaments like pwt were.

Maybe there are a couple of ships this could apply to (I'm thinking of Corran, but I think he's taking a meta hit anyway), but most small base ships don't go over 50 points and large base ships tend to have a lot more damage mitigation options. I agree a punisher certainly isn't one of them. It's 9 health behind 1 agility and no reliable way to avoid damage or regenerate it outside of the emperor. Miranda with 3PO (or R2) and regen is a bit tougher, but she's pretty much all in on defense then with very little offense.

But Brobots ... actually having to outfly the opposition to earn their wins? Oh no. Shame. How awful. You mustn't.

One thing: BroBots have to outfly the opposition to earn their wins. They might not look it individually, but as a list they have an alarmingly low amount of health and it runs out real quick if you fail to outfly the opponent. I would actually rank them up there with Interceptors as one of the hardest ships in the game to fly properly, and much like interceptors they do not tolerate mistakes.

Fat turrets, on the other hand? Literally worse than Hitler.

Generally you find most loaded small ships (Corran, Fel, Whisper etc) escorting a large base fatty (Han, Chewie, Chinereau etc) anyway, so from that point of view a hit to large based ships is going to hit the current usage of loaded small ships anyway.

We might now see these ships used in other combinations more often - i.e. Whisper & Academies, Corran Horn & B's or similar.

Will be interesting to see how the tournament scene shifts in response.

Generally you find most loaded small ships (Corran, Fel, Whisper etc) escorting a large base fatty (Han, Chewie, Chinereau etc) anyway, so from that point of view a hit to large based ships is going to hit the current usage of loaded small ships anyway.

We might now see these ships used in other combinations more often - i.e. Whisper & Academies, Corran Horn & B's or similar.

Will be interesting to see how the tournament scene shifts in response.

... and he was getting bad (or no) shots at me unless he took big risks.

Which should be encouraged. This shouldn't be a game of both sides hanging back trying not to lose points. Maybe if he'd taken some of those risks, he'd have tabled you and MOV wouldn't have mattered at all.

... and he was getting bad (or no) shots at me unless he took big risks.

Which should be encouraged. This shouldn't be a game of both sides hanging back trying not to lose points. Maybe if he'd taken some of those risks, he'd have tabled you and MOV wouldn't have mattered at all.

I cannot agree with this enough.

The problem in the OP's game is a symptom of a more general problem in the tourney rules: they encouraged conservative, defensive play in a game that supposed to be about ships flying around really fast and going pee, pee pew, pew at each other. The rules change points toward a bit more speed and a bit more risk--not by outlawing the conservative approach somehow, but by changing the incentives to favor more consistent engagement.

The problem in the OP's game is a symptom of a more general problem in the tourney rules: they encouraged conservative, defensive play in a game that supposed to be about ships flying around really fast and going pee, pee at each other...

Autocorrect error, maybe?

The problem in the OP's game is a symptom of a more general problem in the tourney rules: they encouraged conservative, defensive play in a game that supposed to be about ships flying around really fast and going pee, pee at each other...

Autocorrect error, maybe?

Obviously the new Yellow Squadron P-Wings haven't been spoiled yet.

People keep saying the new rules nerf vader Crew but I fail to see it. If I'm running a Doomshuttle, I EXPECT it to die.

I thought this too. How often are Doom Shuttles surviving till end game for this to be such an issue?

Accepting from a strategic standpoint that the shuttle is a likely loss is one thing. Determining whether it's tactically a good idea to hand your opponent 16 points to do 1 critical damage is another.

I don't think it's a nerf, but it makes the decision about whether to use him on any given attack much more nuanced.

I'll give you that but most of the times Vader is triggering is in the early game whilst the shuttle has arcs. At that stage I'm still thinking solely about getting your ships off the table so it's unlikely to have much impact on my decision to Vader or not

... and he was getting bad (or no) shots at me unless he took big risks.

Which should be encouraged. This shouldn't be a game of both sides hanging back trying not to lose points. Maybe if he'd taken some of those risks, he'd have tabled you and MOV wouldn't have mattered at all.

I cannot agree with this enough.

The problem in the OP's game is a symptom of a more general problem in the tourney rules: they encouraged conservative, defensive play in a game that supposed to be about ships flying around really fast and going pee, pee pew, pew at each other. The rules change points toward a bit more speed and a bit more risk--not by outlawing the conservative approach somehow, but by changing the incentives to favor more consistent engagement.

VS, this I can accept. Great way to look at this change. Those that just hate turrets or large ships need to get over themselves. I have yet to play a game where I felt I "could not" win. FFG has a great balanced game here. Putting a time limit on the game does change it. The rules now favor a more aggressive style. In my game, had he pushed both of his IGs into risky spots to kill Miranda, I may have taken one of them down. Then the score would have been 100 - 76. I still don't know how I feel about that... but it would have been a full win.

The bright side of this MOV change is it does favor, but does not force, aggressive play. This may simulate a game with no time limit.

I've only played 75 minute rounds. And in almost 25 games over the past two years I haven't had a single one go to time. And only one was ever close I think.

If anything it might force large ships to engage sooner instead of taking several turns flying around the board trying to get the perfect attack approach.

It IS a shame that this rule further weakens Firesprays. And I'd have been OK with the rule being applied to expensive small ships too (I think if you apply it to EVERY small ship you lose the benefit of having the rule in the first place, which seems to be to make allowances for how difficult it is to hurt ships that are loaded with stacked arc-dodging/defensive abilities).But Brobots and fat turrets actually having to outfly the opposition to earn their wins? Oh no. Shame. How awful. You mustn't.

It WOULD be interesting if it applied to all ships costing more than 40 pts or something. Though, people purposely not building more than 39pts per ship would soon become annoying. It just seems more fair, and makes more sense to me to cover all ships that cost a certain point level. Corran Horn at 46 pts is certainly the equivalent of a "Point Fortress".

The rule seems to be working as intended. Dealing 4 damage to an IG is the equivalent of doing 4 damage to a 3 agility small base ship and killing it, granting points. We really should get points for doing that same thing to a big ship.

If anything I think that the 50% hull/shields rule shoudl have been applied to all ships, not just huge ships. There are some really hefty small ships out there now, and I don't really see a good reason for a Punisher with 1 hull left still counts as being untouched at the end of the game, for example.

You kinda have a good point here. Miranda, Corran, punishers are examples for small ships that are just as obese as large ships and don't get punished like large ships. And they are actually not a lot less resilient than large ships.

But if they applied that rule to all ships, calculating MoV would get even more complicated, so idk what would be optimal.