Things could be done better, lets see if they improve in the next tournament.
Edited by negroscuro
Things could be done better, lets see if they improve in the next tournament.
Edited by negroscuro
This sounds like normal big event issues to me.
If this sounds like normal issues then I am happy that I do not play at events in your area.
Point 1, 2, 3, 4 and 10 are things that are simply unforgiving mistakes and horrible planning by the organisers imo.
And on the same weekend was the Belgian Nationals:
- 97 people with I think more than 90 different lists
- top level players (French Champion, Dutch Champion, several belgian, french, dutch, and polish Regional Champions)
- great food with a lot of choice, and cheap
- great belgian beer, and cheap
- large room with plenty of space
- 10€ entry fee...
It was just brilliant!
This sounds like normal big event issues to me.
That's on part with how bad us nationals was this year.
Your comments sadden me. I went to my first national tournaments this year (in France and Spain) after playing for a year and literally none of the issues in the latter were present in the former... and now you're telling me that my first experience was the exception to the rule =(
I only played for about 6 months, but the two major tournaments I participated in was flawless compared to the things I read here.
The 2015 Nordics and the Polish National was by far better run than what is described here.
That sounds rough. I haven't been to any major tournaments, yet, but the ones I visited were all run pretty smoothly and none of them were sanctioned by FFG. Well maybe a bit, since we had FFG prices, bu those were out of the context of any seasonal packs and mostly what the TO had lying around.
You should definitly give them written feedback, maybe they will improve.
Does anyone have some pictures of the playing area?
Does anyone have some pictures of the playing area
I do, will post.
I think that a tournament without chairs got s serious organization problem and have to expect criticism. Even if you say it was fixed for IA i can not imagine standing for the whole tournament. Saying that you have a restroom with chairs is by any means a solution because if my rounds takes full roundtime i cannot rest.
At least ye have nationals guys.
Rounds: The new faq and tournament rules start 1 October. Until this date, the rounds are only a suggest. The schedule of the tournament was decided before that change, that was publised by FFG the day before, with no opportunities for change
I was more bothered by the organizers not stating the tournament structure when it was announced (i.e. two parallel tournaments) than anything else. I knew from the beginning that it would be 5 rounds, even if I would have preferred 6, and stated this in my post.
Chairs: In the same local you have a coffe shop wheere you cant rest between rounds. The chairs exists, but they was in other room for space issues. The next day, in the national IA, all player have this chairs.
If there was no room for chairs I guess it means they wouldn't fit under the tables, which indicates that the chairs they got weren't adequate for the event and/or the space was too small. As for the coffee shop, a large portion of it was occupied throughout the day because it was open to the general public, so there definitely wasn't space for everyone. Besides, people want to be in the room in case things are announced, or sit while setting things up or even during a few turns if all your matches go to time. Keep in mind that the tournament guidelines stated that there wouldn't be enough for everyone, not that there wouldn't be any. It's nice to know that the people that payed to participate in the other event (as well as the people in the top 16) had access to chairs.
Playmats: There was black felt playmats, the same that was used in the last 2 nationals and 2 regionals in Madrid. I was the organizer of that tournamets, and the play mats have an excellent quality.
I know of one case where a referee refused to say whether a ship had left the playmat or not because of state of the mat edges. They may have been felt but the material mattered little to me when I played on a wrinkled piece of cloth more than once, though I'll admit that not all were wrinkled. I could clearly see that some were smaller than the tables and some were hanging off of the table edges. Maybe it was because of the wrinkles and maybe some tables were smaller than others, but both cases are unacceptable.
Proyector, Pa.. this is not mandatory in a tournament. Advisable.. yes, but not mandatory.
Then at least make more than a single printout for each set 75-person tournament. I agree that it's not a disaster but a minor annoyance. If no one can hear any announcements and the organizers flat out refuse to speak up and get angry when asked to, it's both an organizational failure and an attitude problem. How can anyone refuse to do something about a problem they created which can be solved by simply yelling?
Light and Temperature: The local have hight roof, so the temperature was correct. There was about 200 hundred people inside and there not a hight temperature. The light was enought. See the videos and photos andjudge for yourselves.
The roof was high, but I sweated more there than at any other tournament that wasn't in the middle of the summer and without AC, and thankfully it wasn't a hot day. The lighting may have been enough to play but it was still quite dark, darker than any other place I've played at. Photos and videos make it difficult to compare as cameras automatically calculate the ideal exposure settings to get a balanced picture.
Maybe you forgot to tell other thing like:
- Food cheap, in the same local- Shop when you can see some new products, like wave 2 armada, or wave 1 of IA (not released yet in spain)- 2 days tournament. Correct schedule . 4 judges with experience.- Demos, visit of 501 Legion, raffles.- Be able to follow the event in direct by TwitchTv.
I started the post with a list of complaints, not a list of things that I thought were fine, and I didn't notice most of the things you mentioned and wanted to keep my post related to things I observed directly.
I believe I saw one stormtrooper and one TIE pilot, which was nice for the ambience. There may well have been more but I didn't notice much during my matches, hence why I didn't mention it.
I didn't try the food at the locale (I usually bring my own snacks), so I had no opinion on that.
Yes, I agree that the judges (volunteers) seemed correct and friendly according to what I directly observed, and the schedule was indeed followed after a short delay in the morning, which is completely normal in these large events.
I haven't seen the twitch yet either, so again I have no opinion but I heard from others that Simon (also a volunteer) did a great job. I don't know who/if anyone else was involved in this.
I appreciate that the volunteers spent their entire weekend to work on this event and in no way am I trying to hold them responsible for my complaints. My issues are solely directed at the organizers for choosing an inadequate venue (size, temperature, etc.), forcing me to play in inadequate conditions (small tables, lack of space, no chairs, un-ironed mats), and their bad attitudes and patronizing behavior.
Edit: I missed something.
The rest (TO, sanction, etc) , is simply inaccurate or false. Take the option that you prefer.
I fully recognized that I don't know the meaning of the numerical value in #9 and drew my conclusions by assuming it was MoV, and in #10 I mentioned beforehand that I wasn't there. Care to explain where my mistakes are?
Edited by darthlurkerI followed the first day of tournament thru twitch and most of the complains from the OP can be confirmed just by looking at the videos.
The playmats were ludicrous. They were irregularly cut out and with huge bumps. People couldn't deploy in corners or near the edge because the ships would fall off. The few official FFG playmats were bigger than the tables, yet the black velvet mats were either bigger or smaller and with irregular sides.
You can see during the broadcasted matches only that the players needed to pile everything in the middle of the play area, or under the tables.
Most matches had to be played in under 50 minutes because of the lack of organization when announcing the pairings. People had to crowd around the printed sheets with the pairings to find themseves there, then rush to the right table, and deploy, while time was already running!
At least one of the rounds were wrongly paired, and some people had to stop their games and be sent to another table with their right pairing, and start all over, having games under 40 minutes long.
The commentator stated that the store they had there with Wave 2 Armada and Imperial Assault stuff had it only for demo. They weren't selling it.
I had to register here because of this post. Went to Madrid only to play the nationals for the weekend. More than 500Kms. Local store tournaments are better organized than this.
Chairs: In the same local you have a coffe shop wheere you cant rest between rounds. The chairs exists, but they was in other room for space issues. The next day, in the national IA, all player have this chairs.
Saying that is the same as saying I could also sit on the street outside of the building. During the more than an hour a game usually takes I couldn't sit anywhere or barely move because I'd bump on other attendees. This is the only tournament I've been with that total disregard for the player's comfort.
Playmats: There was black felt playmats, the same that was used in the last 2 nationals and 2 regionals in Madrid. I was the organizer of that tournamets, and the play mats have an excellent quality.
Same table: one black playmat would overflow out of the table. The other one would have a centimeter of space on each side. Wich one do I use for reference? Some players couldn't place their ships on the border of the mat in fear of their ships falling. In one ocasion one of the referees had to be called because a ship would fall out of the table, but if you pulled the mait with your fingers the ship would still be inside it. I wonder if FFG should update their FAQs for those situations.
Space: Is true. The space between playmats was a problem. The unique problem.
Light and Temperature: The local have hight roof, so the temperature was correct. There was about 200 hundred people inside and there not a hight temperature. The light was enought. See the videos and photos andjudge for yourselves.
The touremant was not perfect. But for sure not a shame.
I will not initiate a discussion here. this is my last post. I only ask people that, before they take an opinion, please, read all opinions, and not believe everything that a single person says for spite or any other reason that he have.
remind me to go the belgian national tournament next year! :-)
Rounds: The new faq and tournament rules start 1 October. Until this date, the rounds are only a suggest. The schedule of the tournament was decided before that change, that was publised by FFG the day before, with no opportunities for change
And that is perfectly understandable. But even according to the last iteration of tournament rules being in effect until Sept. 30th it was one round short for the number of players. And even dividing it into 2 tournaments with 75 persons it should have been 6 rounds. And this is actually the point I am most confused about. Planning for two tournaments of 75 players of 5 rounds side by side means that you are basically planning to cheat 10 players for a game that they would have had if it had been run 5 rounds as one tournament with 150 people. It might have worked out in the end with dropouts, but it seems silly to plan for round byes if you can avoid it. Especially for a nationals event where you can expect people to come travelling quite a distance. Not to mention announcing it differently beforehand.
remind me to go the belgian national tournament next year! :-)
You and me both.
Rounds: The new faq and tournament rules start 1 October. Until this date, the rounds are only a suggest. The schedule of the tournament was decided before that change, that was publised by FFG the day before, with no opportunities for change
And that is perfectly understandable. But even according to the last iteration of tournament rules being in effect until Sept. 30th it was one round short for the number of players. And even dividing it into 2 tournaments with 75 persons it should have been 6 rounds. And this is actually the point I am most confused about. Planning for two tournaments of 75 players of 5 rounds side by side means that you are basically planning to cheat 10 players for a game that they would have had if it had been run 5 rounds as one tournament with 150 people. It might have worked out in the end with dropouts, but it seems silly to plan for round byes if you can avoid it. Especially for a nationals event where you can expect people to come travelling quite a distance. Not to mention announcing it differently beforehand.
Around the time the tournament was announced they stated that it was due to venue limitations, which means that the organizers selected a venue that was inadequate in yet another aspect.
I am one of the Judges and Referees team from the Spanish National that took place this last weekend and that seems to have been the worst tournament in the organized play...
First of all, I would like to clarify that the Referee Team was completely different to the TO, I mean, we are a group of 4 referees who has experience from last 2 Nationals and several Regionals in Spain. With this I do NOT mean that we are God in terms of making decissions and knwoing the rules I am just saying we have experience when organizing tournaments, printing rounds and a good rules knowledge, just it.
So, with this clear, the Ref Team is not responsible for the space, tables ,chairs, and so and so as we did not manage that part. We are responsible for collecting lists, making the pairings, and all what cares about rules, nothing more. We are volunteers and we got nothing to do with lucratives purposes, we are actually players.
I hope all the above info makes sense, specially to settle everyone's overview of what happened.
So @Azrapse, you clearly saw other event...or you should definitely check how the time goes by in your laptop, PC or whatever device you used to check out time...It is completely FALSE that any of the round lasted for 50 minutes, you can ask any of the players, even the ones complaning here about it, and I am positive they will second my words. Pairings were announced with enough time, actually we waited for between 5-10 minutes between pairings announcements and the beggining of each single round. Nobody could complain about this, and in fact, nobody did.
Regarding the uncorrect pairings, it happened once, when one score was uncorrectly typped and the player detected the mistake and we announce the round was not correct and we printed out the correct one and then waited again for everybody to move and set everything. Nobody played for 40 minutes.
Do you really think that we would have left that place alive if we leave people to play less than the 75 minutes we gave to all the swiss rounds?? Please...
Did the same clock you used counted the time between rounds which was always under 5 minutes? Yes, in a 150 people event less than five minutes between rounds, we worked so hard to achieve it, trust me. We accurately matched the time schedule in all moment, did you check that aswell?
I understand that the negative points are usually the ones that tends to become written, but never the positive. But in this case, regarding the timming, I strongly thing nothing can be said and every player can confirm this. Please do not use lies, specialy if you did not attend or were told by first hand. It does not help at all, only destroys and it destroys for nothing...
@darthlurker
Regarding the pairings, there were two places with a list of the pairings and was said, I am sorry if you did not see both of them, as you have said, we did not have a PA system, but we, the refs, as I said, could not do anything about it but asking for it once there. The two places were at the entrance of the hall of the building and the others inside the playing area.
Appart from that, in your first post you talk about the MOV and that one person was out of the TOP, well to be honest, 134 players were out of the TOP (150-16). We classified the Tfirst 8 players from each group of each swiss group to the TOP16. It will always be a 9th, and I personally knew the player who asked about the MOv and the player you are talking about, we were chatting for long and checked everything was OK, but TOME, as it is stated in the Official Xwing Tournament Rules calculates everything a bit different, and in this particular case, he was out of the TOP16 for 3 points...I am sorry about that, but we checked everything was fine from his rounds...
For the next time, we have learned, and as many people asked politely the day after (while the TOP was being played) the score between rounds should have been printed out. Note taken.
Now, the big deal...the disqualification. Not providing a real, true, and reliable info. I am going to paste here the event rules that were announced one week before the event and that is mandatory to every player attending a Premier Event to know. These were rules the Ref Team accorded to write down and make public to have a better experience and to evade to more possible issues. Please let me paste only the sentence we need:
FORMATO
- Los escuadrones se formarán siguiendo las normas oficiales de torneo. Bajo ninguna circunstancia podrán superar los 100 puntos (X-Wing Tournament rules 3.1.1 pag 4).
- Se trata de un torneo de categoría preferente según las reglas oficiales de torneo, con lo que todo ello conlleva. Es decir, se recuerda a todos los jugadores que han de conocer el reglamento de juego y de torneo en sus últimas versiones oficiales, así como conocer la última versión del documento de Preguntas Frecuentes publicado por FFG.
- Todos los jugadores deben llevar impresa una copia de la lista de escuadrón para la organización cumplimentada en algún programa informático de los existentes de creación de listas, por ejemplo:
Aprovechamos para recordar que los asteroides también forman parte de la lista y deben ir incluidos en la misma (tal y como podéis encontrar en las normas de torneo -X-Wing Tournament rules 3.1.1 pag 4). Los asteroides deberán estar reflejados en la lista, poniendo los números de obstáculo en la hoja (puede ser a mano) según la siguiente fotografía:
FORMAT
The squad will be formed following the official tournament rules. Under no circumstances may exceed 100 points (X-Wing Tournament rules 3.1.1 page 4).
This is a tournament preferred category according to official tournament rules, which all involved. That is, all players have to know the rules of the game and tournament in his last official versions and to know the latest FAQ document published by FFG is remembered.
All players must be marked with a copy of the list of squad for the organization filled in some of the existing software to create lists, for example:
http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByhL_sOuQuTFenVQZHJYRXB6YU0/view?usp=sharing
We take this opportunity to remember that asteroids are also part of the list must be included in it (as can be found in the tournament rules Tournament rules -X-Wing 3.1.1 page 4). Asteroids should be reflected in the list, putting numbers on the sheet barrier (can be hand) according to the following picture:
- Será necesario llevar la lista en algún soporte que pueda permitir al contrario revisar la lista de manera cómoda, ya sea impreso o en un medio electrónico de fácil lectura.
- Aprovechamos para recordar que es obligación de los jugadores revisar la lista de escuadrón propia y la de sus rivales antes de comenzar cada partida de cara a evitar errores y/o diferencias entre el escuadrón desplegado y el escuadrón inscrito. En el hipotético caso de encontrar algún tipo de discrepancia, se espera de cualquier jugador que se lo comunique a su contrario para que pueda solucionarlo antes del comienzo de la ronda.
- Una vez presentada la lista no se aceptarán modificaciones posteriores. Si se detecta algún cambio en algún escuadrón o alguna situación similar, el jugador podrá ser sancionado.
- La organización y el equipo de árbitros se reserva el derecho a decidir en cada caso la medida que estime más justa para cada situación, pudiendo perfectamente ser la expulsión del torneo.
- Se recuerda que los jugadores son los únicos responsables de su inscripción y supervisión de las listas de escuadrón, por favor, poned especial atención sobre este punto ya que no queremos tener que tomar medidas desagradables para todos.
- The list will need to be taken on some support that could help the opponent reviewing the list comfortably , whether print or electronic medium readable .
- We take this opportunity to remember that it is the duty of the players to review the list of own squad and their opponents before each game in order to avoid errors and / or differences between the deployed squadron and the registered squad. In the unlikely event of finding some kind of dispute, it is expected that any player notify his opponent so you can fix before the start of the round.
- Once the list presented no further changes will be accepted. If any change in any squad or some similar situation is detected, the player will be penalized.
- The organization and umpiring crew reserves the right to decide in each case the extent deemed fairer for every situation, it may well be expelled from the tournament.
- It is recalled that the players are solely responsible for their registration and supervision of squad lists, please, put special attention to this point we do not want to have to take unpleasant for all.
I do not want to translate by myslef, but I encourage to everybody to use Google translate or whatever to translate it, or if you want to, I will translate it later on.
The basics here stated are:
2 copies of the list, one for the Ref Team and one for showing to the other player during all the tournament.
This list must have every component of your squad, where the 3 obstacles going to be used are mandatory too.
We say it is not mandatory to have 2 paper copies, only 1 paper for the Refs and it can be a digital copy for showing on the cellphone to your opponent.
The responsability of having a correct list written down belongs only to the player, not to the Refs, the Refs will only check that what is in the list is what is being played. The opponent is responsible too for asking for the list to check everything was fine in terms of points, and so.
Here comes the bomb then.
We collected all the list during the first round of the swiss and check that what was being played was what the listed said. We did not check points and so as we delegated that responsability to the players attending a PREMIER event, but, ofc, we asked to everybody having a doubt about a squad or whatever to raise the hand we were there in seconds.
So with all these, probably one, or even more, of the collected lists was not that accurate, there were many without the player's name, without the obstacle, with a different upgrade card...And there were people without lists, funny ha?
We were comprehensive and gave time to include the names, to write down obstacles, and even to write down lists...We thought, and we hoped all of the collected lists were OK, actually we were happy and positive about the fact that all the lists were fine in those terms. We were wrong.
The next day, when we started the TOP16, there were 3 players from the TOP16 who did not write their names on the collected lists. We were going to use the lists provided by the players from the day before while the swiss. This issue was solved, they wrote down the names and we said, OK guys, now that we have everything ready to make our job and you are ready to play, TIME STARTS, GOOD LUCK.
We started then to check all the lists, and there was a problem, one of the players did not have listed the obstacles, he had all the 12 obstacles shadows but did not highlighted or wrote which ones he was using. The Ref Team met and we said: "OK, let's ask him for the other copy (the one for showing to opponents) because he will have everything there".
We called the player and ask him for the other copy, but he said he did not have any other copy. BANG!
So we asked him if the copy we had was his, he said it was, and he told him were he wrote down the obstacles being used during the torunament, he said, he did not write anything about the obstacles because he forgot about it. So, I personally tell him: "Look man, you got a problem, get prepared for a possible disqualification, we have to meet, we have to talk, but get ready for that kind of penalty. Go and keep playing, but keep it in mind".
So we all the 4 Refs met and said, made a decission, which, could be more or less good, but it was the decission we made which basically was, that instead of disqualification, he got a score penalty, which was going to make him harder to win, but possible. This was our decission, people can agree or not, but that was what we stated. And he lost because of the penaltie even when he killed more that his opponent. We tokk this decission because in the rules I pasted before we said that each player was also responsible for checking his opponent's list, so even when each player is particularly responsible for his own list, his opponent did not asked for the list in order to say it was not correct, so we could have fixed it before the round started.
As we stated on the rules, we were responsible for checking the lists provided were reliable with what was in table.
That is basically what happened. I have tried to give my POV, and to tell what happened the more reliable possibly, so everybody can understand what really happened from a person who was there all the time.
I will finish remembering again that the Ref team got nothing to do with venue, spaces, and all that. We had what we had and we tried to make the tournament the best possible with all that we got provided with.
Sorry for the size of the post!!
Edited by PuZzLeCiToA few images of the event will clarify the point of view about the mats....
FLAT SURFACE.....

YOU CAN DEPLOY YOUR SHIPS IN THE EDGE (i'm pretty sure they will not fall)....

PLENTY OF SPACE FOR THE CARDS, TOKENS, RANGE RULERS AND MANEUVER TEMPLATES....

Rounds: The new faq and tournament rules start 1 October. Until this date, the rounds are only a suggest. The schedule of the tournament was decided before that change, that was publised by FFG the day before, with no opportunities for change
Actually, I think you'll find that the old FAQ, stating that they were recommended also stated that they must be followed exactly for Premier level events (which is nationals and worlds)
Sad to hear that several nationals had so many issues.
My experience was quite the opposite, the Australian Nationals was run incredibly smoothly with no issues at all that I could see. The TO, Brad, ran an amazing event with lots of bonus prize support, lots of space for players (ncluding a lounge where people could relax and watch the live stream of the featured game once they'd finished their matches), and plenty of chairs.
Edited by godofcheeseI am one of the Judges and Referees team from the Spanish National that took place this last weekend and that seems to have been the worst tournament in the organized play...
First of all, I would like to clarify that the Referee Team was completely different to the TO, I mean, we are a group of 4 referees who has experience from last 2 Nationals and several Regionals in Spain. With this I do NOT mean that we are God in terms of making decissions and knwoing the rules I am just saying we have experience when organizing tournaments, printing rounds and a good rules knowledge, just it.
So, with this clear, the Ref Team is not responsible for the space, tables ,chairs, and so and so as we did not manage that part. We are responsible for collecting lists, making the pairings, and all what cares about rules, nothing more. We are volunteers and we got nothing to do with lucratives purposes, we are actually players.
I hope all the above info makes sense, specially to settle everyone's overview of what happened.
So @Azrapse, you clearly saw other event...or you should definitely check how the time goes by in your laptop, PC or whatever device you used to check out time...It is completely FALSE that any of the round lasted for 50 minutes, you can ask any of the players, even the ones complaning here about it, and I am positive they will second my words. Pairings were announced with enough time, actually we waited for between 5-10 minutes between pairings announcements and the beggining of each single round. Nobody could complain about this, and in fact, nobody did.
Regarding the uncorrect pairings, it happened once, when one score was uncorrectly typped and the player detected the mistake and we announce the round was not correct and we printed out the correct one and then waited again for everybody to move and set everything. Nobody played for 40 minutes.
Do you really think that we would have left that place alive if we leave people to play less than the 75 minutes we gave to all the swiss rounds?? Please...
Did the same clock you used counted the time between rounds which was always under 5 minutes? Yes, in a 150 people event less than five minutes between rounds, we worked so hard to achieve it, trust me. We accurately matched the time schedule in all moment, did you check that aswell?
I understand that the negative points are usually the ones that tends to become written, but never the positive. But in this case, regarding the timming, I strongly thing nothing can be said and every player can confirm this. Please do not use lies, specialy if you did not attend or were told by first hand. It does not help at all, only destroys and it destroys for nothing...
I can confirm that this is accurate, the round time was never an issue as far as I saw.
@darthlurker
Regarding the pairings, there were two places with a list of the pairings and was said, I am sorry if you did not see both of them, as you have said, we did not have a PA system, but we, the refs, as I said, could not do anything about it but asking for it once there. The two places were at the entrance of the hall of the building and the others inside the playing area.
Appart from that, in your first post you talk about the MOV and that one person was out of the TOP, well to be honest, 134 players were out of the TOP (150-16). We classified the Tfirst 8 players from each group of each swiss group to the TOP16. It will always be a 9th, and I personally knew the player who asked about the MOv and the player you are talking about, we were chatting for long and checked everything was OK, but TOME, as it is stated in the Official Xwing Tournament Rules calculates everything a bit different, and in this particular case, he was out of the TOP16 for 3 points...I am sorry about that, but we checked everything was fine from his rounds...
For the next time, we have learned, and as many people asked politely the day after (while the TOP was being played) the score between rounds should have been printed out. Note taken.
Now, the big deal...the disqualification. Not providing a real, true, and reliable info. I am going to paste here the event rules that were announced one week before the event and that is mandatory to every player attending a Premier Event to know. These were rules the Ref Team accorded to write down and make public to have a better experience and to evade to more possible issues. Please let me paste only the sentence we need:
[rules and images removed]
I do not want to translate by myslef, but I encourage to everybody to use Google translate or whatever to translate it, or if you want to, I will translate it later on.
The basics here stated are:
2 copies of the list, one for the Ref Team and one for showing to the other player during all the tournament.
This list must have every component of your squad, where the 3 obstacles going to be used are mandatory too.
We say it is not mandatory to have 2 paper copies, only 1 paper for the Refs and it can be a digital copy for showing on the cellphone to your opponent.
The responsability of having a correct list written down belongs only to the player, not to the Refs, the Refs will only check that what is in the list is what is being played. The opponent is responsible too for asking for the list to check everything was fine in terms of points, and so.
Here comes the bomb then.
We collected all the list during the first round of the swiss and check that what was being played was what the listed said. We did not check points and so as we delegated that responsability to the players attending a PREMIER event, but, ofc, we asked to everybody having a doubt about a squad or whatever to raise the hand we were there in seconds.
So with all these, probably one, or even more, of the collected lists was not that accurate, there were many without the player's name, without the obstacle, with a different upgrade card...And there were people without lists, funny ha?
We were comprehensive and gave time to include the names, to write down obstacles, and even to write down lists...We thought, and we hoped all of the collected lists were OK, actually we were happy and positive about the fact that all the lists were fine in those terms. We were wrong.
The next day, when we started the TOP16, there were 3 players from the TOP16 who did not write their names on the collected lists. We were going to use the lists provided by the players from the day before while the swiss. This issue was solved, they wrote down the names and we said, OK guys, now that we have everything ready to make our job and you are ready to play, TIME STARTS, GOOD LUCK.
We started then to check all the lists, and there was a problem, one of the players did not have listed the obstacles, he had all the 12 obstacles shadows but did not highlighted or wrote which ones he was using. The Ref Team met and we said: "OK, let's ask him for the other copy (the one for showing to opponents) because he will have everything there".
We called the player and ask him for the other copy, but he said he did not have any other copy. BANG!
So we asked him if the copy we had was his, he said it was, and he told him were he wrote down the obstacles being used during the torunament, he said, he did not write anything about the obstacles because he forgot about it. So, I personally tell him: "Look man, you got a problem, get prepared for a possible disqualification, we have to meet, we have to talk, but get ready for that kind of penalty. Go and keep playing, but keep it in mind".
So we all the 4 Refs met and said, made a decission, which, could be more or less good, but it was the decission we made which basically was, that instead of disqualification, he got a score penalty, which was going to make him harder to win, but possible. This was our decission, people can agree or not, but that was what we stated. And he lost because of the penaltie even when he killed more that his opponent. We tokk this decission because in the rules I pasted before we said that each player was also responsible for checking his opponent's list, so even when each player is particularly responsible for his own list, his opponent did not asked for the list in order to say it was not correct, so we could have fixed it before the round started.
As we stated on the rules, we were responsible for checking the lists provided were reliable with what was in table.
That is basically what happened. I have tried to give my POV, and to tell what happened the more reliable possibly, so everybody can understand what really happened from a person who was there all the time.
I saw both pairing sheets (and even mentioned this...), but I find that 75 people is still overcrowded for one section of wall, but as I said before, it was a minor issue.
With respect to the MoV, like I said the numbers that were visible didn't make sense and evidently caused confusion amongst a number of people. I must admit that I'm still curious as to where my conclusions are wrong if you want to continue the discussion in a PM.
As for the MoV sanction in the top, I understand the need for a punishment, but like I said in the first point the things I heard weren't making sense, and the rule I previously cited is somewhat ambiguous. Thanks for the clarification of what happened, I imagine it was unpleasant for everyone involved. In the Barcelona Regional all lists were sent beforehand to be checked, and all were printed out and given to each player upon arrival in order to avoid accidents/manipulation.
I will finish remembering again that the Ref team got nothing to do with venue, spaces, and all that. We had what we had and we tried to make the tournament the best possible with all that we got provided with.
+1
A few images of the event will clarify the point of view about the mats....
FLAT SURFACE.....
Thanks for posting the pictures, Uri! I've had a hard time posting them.... good thing I send them to the group ![]()
The pictures of the mats were taken of the first 'big table'... those are actually tables 1 through 6 of the 'blue' pod. I have a picture of the ship that was almost-out-of-the-board-but-not-quite-sure (it was actually one of my games) and I'll upload it later along with my views on the tournament.
Regarding the TOP penalty we are not talking about changing cards between rounds or playing with more than 100 points "by mistake". If the issue was the possibility that the player changed obstacles between rounds instead of a bureaucratic mistake due to nerves you could have checked his previous match against a different list that was broadcasted in twitch.
Thanks to you for sharing your POV from a "better future Spanish National" perspective.
Trust me it is really really unpleasant to make the decission and to communicate it, I do not wish to everyone to be in my situation in that moment, trust me.
When the final list with the player accessing to the TOP16 was printed out, it is true that the data shown there created much confusion as it was showing the score, but that is a bug from the Official Software, afaik. Even though, the people who asked about it, got an answer and the problematic cases were studied in that same moment to check that everything was right.
Will think about the suggestion of getting the lists in advanced, we have done that in the past, but it was not that easy this time due to other several reasons. One of them is that we did not manage the attendance ticket system, so that makes a bit more difficult everything. Even though, will try for next time and will work to avoid this kind of issue.
Edited by PuZzLeCiToUri, I do not know if I understood correctly, are you asking me to accept a responsability that I am not responsible for, as I have explained already? Maybe I did not understand your words correctly but I cannot aacept my responsability for something, as I have explained in my preovious post, I am not responsible for.
So @Azrapse, you clearly saw other event...or you should definitely check how the time goes by in your laptop, PC or whatever device you used to check out time...It is completely FALSE that any of the round lasted for 50 minutes, you can ask any of the players, even the ones complaning here about it, and I am positive they will second my words. Pairings were announced with enough time, actually we waited for between 5-10 minutes between pairings announcements and the beggining of each single round. Nobody could complain about this, and in fact, nobody did.
Please, spare me the patronizing tone. The comments about the reduced game time and pairing chaos didn't come from the Twitch streaming, but from 4 attending players, one of which reached the top 16.
Perhaps you are tired of people complaining about something you didn't get any money from, and that is understandable. But when there is widespread criticism that even reaches the Fantasy Flight official forums, and it didn't happen in previous years, there must be something wrong with this one and some of the complains might have some merit.
You can also lock yourself in The Downfall's bunker and deny the outer world, of course.