Wow, my first popular post! I'd like to thank:

any2cards, JESIV, phild0, category, Stonegeneral, Kyrios Mirage, pickirk01, Spider, willmanx, Silver leader, SpikeSpiegel, FlyingAnchors, Dagonet, LagJanson, HueyNewton, Marvingardns, FuturistiKen, Moneyinvolved, Rodafowa, PhantomFO, Stelar 7, MegaSilver, ForceM, EdgeOfDreams, Red G, Babaganoosh, DagobahDave, Vykk Draygo, mtrein, Rydiak, Tipperary, Toqtamish, and Baaa

Stay awesome, guys. Btw, here's better content for the first post of a "Thug Y-Wings Win Spanish National Championship" thread:

So a squad of 4 Y-wings with Twin Laser Turrets just won Spanish Nationals. That's two nationals wins (including Poland). Clearly TLT's are a thing now. So what can we do to stop them? What tools does everyone have in their X-Wing toolboxes to stop the TLT menace before it starts?

Fly casual! *starts walking off the stage with his Emmy*

*runs back to the mic*

Oh, and I'd like to thank TLT's everywhere!!

Glad to help Wonka! But 1,100+ post and this was your first popular post/'win'. So does that make you the Susan Lucci of the FFG X-Wing forums?

TLTs have a bad rap already (which is probably deserved), but in a strange way I think we might start seeing less of them. At a tournament I went to today, I believe nobody brought 4 -- mainly because nobody wanted to be "that guy" lol. It's the "I'm a ******" card of X-Wing.

I think we'll be seeing less just because they're so easy to hate out of a match. Any IG-88 or named Starviper with Sensor Jammer and Authrusters can almost solo all four of the TLT-wings by themselves, and since the combo remains fairly effective in other matchups it's pretty easy to justify teching it in.

Oh, can we call the list that ends up destroying this Cameron?

it's sensors/thrusters/jousters/fast ships in general

the thing with TLTs is that they have a range cap and are on slow ships. Even with the nice unhinged dial, Y-wings are incapable of post maneuver re-positioning.

what this means, in a nutshell, is that they're kind of screwed if you get into range 1 and they can't really stop you from getting there

except for obstacles

an obstacle is a TLT's best friend, it compensates for a lack of boost/roll (especially not a large base boost/roll ) and keeps the bad guys away. Nothing cuts down on a ship's maneuverability like action-denying, boost/roll blocking obstacles (well, not counting Dash, but the dude has a doughnuthole too) and nothing can abuse that quite like a 360 attack.

apart from specific upgrade counters, playing against a TLT requires expert navigation of obstacles and that's not a topic one can accurately cover in a single post. We need articles for that.

pretty sure you're disqualified from a tournament (and banned from the venue) if you pull a knife on your opponent's tlts

I find zero mention of knives in the tournament rules. Can you cite your source please ?

...

...

...

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(knife: new meta)

Hel-NAH... me in charges of smilies!

Y Wings aren't the most maneuverable ships and have dead ranges too with TLT, so it's not really that simple.

Give them Unhinged Astromech and that makes them fast & maneuverable. It also adds up neatly to cost 25 pts so its efficient to field 4Y's.

New builds/strong builds will always be part of the meta, its just if they dominate the game gets stale, but new meta also means a new challenge trying to beat it

Y Wings aren't the most maneuverable ships and have dead ranges too with TLT, so it's not really that simple.

Give them Unhinged Astromech and that makes them fast & maneuverable. It also adds up neatly to cost 25 pts so its efficient to field 4Y's.

New builds/strong builds will always be part of the meta, its just if they dominate the game gets stale, but new meta also means a new challenge trying to beat it

not particularly fast nor maneuverable, just moreso than your typical Y (or, god forbid, hwk)

you get an x-wing dial by freeing up the 3-turn (not counting the stress tossing) with an X-wing's action bar; not exactly fat han status

The 4TLT is a list that if hit hard soon enough to lose even just one Y-Wing, weakens significantly, making it only easier to defeat.

I think this list was totally foreseen by FFG and they totally intended to be this strong. Why?

I believe it is one of their ways to encourage ordnance. A heavy alpha strike with ordnance can surely devastate one Y-Wing, maybe weakening two. Maybe ordnance isn't as efficient as Heavy Laser Cannon, but it allows for higher damage peaks against low agility ships at the beginning of the match, that is precisely what this list is weak against.

As a side effect, if lists start including ordnance, that is not the most super-duper-math-effective thing to do, but effective against this kind of lists, it will diversify the meta, as not all lists will necesarily have to drift to the absolute optimum point efficiency, that usually means disregarding most of the pilots, ships and upgrades in the game, and focusing on the few "almost-broken" ones.

N'dru Suhlak with Clusters and stim. 23 points. Twice 4 red die attacks.

If only I could use Palpatine with him to ward off the inevitable multiple blank dice...

N'dru Suhlak with Clusters and stim. 23 points. Twice 4 red die attacks.

If only I could use Palpatine with him to ward off the inevitable multiple blank dice...

My God, you're actually going the pew pew route! Finally!

Lone Wolf can help you there.

(assuming of course you manage to keep him out of range two of friendlies...)

True. Lone wolf however eats away at the remainder of my 100 pts.

I somehow always make "perfect" 110 pt squads.

I think you can go two routes when building lists to counter TLTs. Unfortunately for some, these two routes do not conform to what has been common lately, so people have to stop and rethink what they want to bring as an 'all comers' list.

The first route is to have repeated defensive upgrades on 1 or 2 elite ships. Sensor Jammer and Autothrusters are the big winners here, as we all already know.

The second route is to have more than 4 ships with anything PS3 or higher that can PS kill a TLT before it can fire. Again, common knowledge.

So what do you take to counter 4 TLT Y wings?

There is zero need to be so belligerent Celes.

Everyone seems to be getting awfully worked up over this. It's a game folks remember. It's played for fun and recreation.

Yeah sorry, I would also prefer to have a nuanced discussion about this. But judging by the amount of success the list has had Recently I don't think suggestions like 'bring sensor hammers and fast ship' are really doing the topic justice. It's not that simple.

People could bring Brobots with at/sensor jammer and beat 4tlt 9/10 times but then the forum would be complaining about the stale Meta yet again in a couple weeks.I do think the fact you can put 4ys with Tlts + unhinged is an issue since it takes a Very specific number of things to counter, limiting the overall list choices (just like every list had to be built to.counter phantoms). Again, just going by the amount of success this list has had its quite obvious this is a very powerful combination..so would it be that far off to have a discussion whether ffg intended this or if, possibly, fhey made TLT just a tad too good/cheap? In my opinion both arguments have little to do whether the list can be countered, it's just about matchups and odds (other games would have tiers of list with different matchups and odds meaning that if a list is favored in most matchups it might be a tad too high on the power curve)

Okay, here are some of your "limited" choices, I just came up with them off of the top of my head so I apologize if the list is too short. All 'filler' is expected to be PS3+ generics.

Imperials:

7 TIE Swarm, using Obsidians and a named pilot of your choice

TIE FO with juke and comm? I haven't tested, just guessing

4 Storm Squadron Tie Advs with AC

Fel, Whisper, and filler of choice

Rhymer with cluster missiles and Jonus, plus filler of choice (Chance to use Ruthlessness!)

Redline

3 ATC Advance Aces

-Any mixture of the above

Rebels:

Z95 swarm, missiles or not, your choice (Definitely Talas with XX23 Blount in Wave 8)

Daggers (perhaps Biggs walks the Dags, depends on flying strategy )

Mixed rebel swarm of 5+ ships, perhaps using Roark to boost a PS1-2 generic

Poe Dameron

Corran Horn? Not sure as he is quite expensive, but able to dodge and heal. He can also take sensor jammer instead of FCS...

A Wings, all of them forever! Especially with Wired... And prockets... Mmmmmm....

Scum:

Z95 swarm, missiles or not, your choice, can add glitterstim as well.

Xizor swarm? Not sure, but Xizor can get AT SJ if he wants...

Dual IG - duh.

Laetin Ashera!! Hahaha, if only, if only.

Predator, Sensor Jammer, Autothrusters, and 3 agi are your core counters if going aces. Really people, the sky isn't falling, you just have to do a little extra work list building or -gasp- developing a strategy! I welcome this change.

Poe Dameron (31)

Predator (3)

R5-P9 (3)

Autothrusters (2)

Corran Horn (35)

Push the Limit (3)

Fire-Control System (2)

R2-D2 (4)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Autothrusters (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

So basically i kept both my aces flanking at the fringe of Range 3 while the A-Wing jousted with them. I attacked simultaneously and shot the rear Y-Wing down to 3 hull giving it a blinded pilot. The A-Wing was not targeted and removed 2 shields from the lead Y-Wing. He targeted Corran and removed all shields from him (and i rolled pretty bad that phase). So i double tapped and just ran away with Corran, inflicting 2 more on the wounded ship. Next turn i went on by killing the 1 hp ship with Poe. The A-Wing managed to block 2 Ys but whiffed its attack. I took 2 shields on poe between his ability and Autothrusters. The 2 i took were just unmodified 3 hits each time. But i regenerated a shield so i was at 5 hp emd of turn. Next turn i just went range 1 with Poe so he got only shot by one Ywhile The A-Wing went on blocking thepath between asteroids. Corran regged a shield. Poe shot at a fresh Y, inflicting a major explosion which drew some engine damage card making his turns red (i believe) and bringing one Y to 3. He shot one Y at Poe which did another damage that i regenned and one at the A-Wing with primary weapon, which whiffed. Next turn Corran just swoopee back in regging another shield and massacred the 3 hull ship. i then poured all the remaining shots plus double tap into tge 6hp ship which destroyed it. He did another 2 damage to corran but decided to call it quits with one Y left. I would have regged 2 more shields any way and have fled if he damaged me one ship.

So it was a pretty onesided affair, he never inflicted a single hull point of damage. He rolled pretty decently on his red dice but made only very few evades. I rolled badly on my greens for a few turns but my red dice were very hot. But i can also thank Predator and Poes ability for that. The A-wing was realy useful setting up blocks and he was very reluctant to shoot at it. Because even if he killed it one dead Y would be enough to give me a full win.

I love the synergy between Lone Wolf and N'dru. I do not however love trying to keep him at range three of friendlies.

Last time I rolled with him, it (and his ability) never activated once.

Poe Dameron (31)

Predator (3)

R5-P9 (3)

Autothrusters (2)

Corran Horn (35)

Push the Limit (3)

Fire-Control System (2)

R2-D2 (4)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Autothrusters (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

There we have it!

Poe Cameron the pigf**ker!

Poe Dameron (31)Predator (3)R5-P9 (3)Autothrusters (2)Corran Horn (35)Push the Limit (3)Fire-Control System (2)R2-D2 (4)Prototype Pilot (17)Chardaan Refit (-2)Autothrusters (2)Total: 100View in Yet Another Squad Builder

There we have it!

Poe Cameron the pigf**ker!

Yeah he basically did most of the work while Horn was more expensive. I could drop the A to a Tala and give Corran EU, which i missed in a few other games i made with this list. Or just drop The Autothrusters on the A-Wing and exchange FCS for Sensor Jammer. That would really make Corran a pain to take down for TLT ships, but leave the A vulnerable and down Corrans firepower.

Not having ATs on your 15 point A-Wings isn't bad, I am not convinced it has much value on such a cheap ship that is mostly there for blocking.

Sigma Swarm would probably work here... They shoot first and hit hard, just try to edge out and focus a Y-wing out a turn.

Sigma Swarm would probably work here... They shoot first and hit hard, just try to edge out and focus a Y-wing out a turn.

This is pretty hard to pull off in reality. You will need to outdamage them. But firing every second turn only will possibly mean that you just cant kill them fast enough. They will probably kill one stealthed Phantom per turn. If you decloak they will do more than that.

If you however get enough phantoms to range 1 you will probably kill at least 1 Y per turn. So the advantage goes to whoever makes the first kill. It should be the Phantoms but no guarantee for that.

Honestly i would rather try 5 Kihraxz against that. Not because i think its better as a counter but because its easier to fly!

I do like how most winning lists become "auto pilot" squads.

Sorry? Where did I say this was "most winning lists"?

Fact is, the 4 Y-Wing with TLT lists requires very little thinking to play whatsoever. You just move, roll three dice, repeat. Then move roll three dice, repeat. Etc. It is the epitome of an autopilot list. But hey, I do like how some people like to be snots with replies like yours.

I do like how most winning lists become "auto pilot" squads.

Sorry? Where did I say this was "most winning lists"?

Fact is, the 4 Y-Wing with TLT lists requires very little thinking to play whatsoever. You just move, roll three dice, repeat. Then move roll three dice, repeat. Etc. It is the epitome of an autopilot list. But hey, I do like how some people like to be snots with replies like yours.

You didn't say that most winning lists are autopilot squads, but it's a really common claim on this forum. We heard it about Han, about Dash, about Chiraneau/Fel, about turrets in general, about Brobots, and now about 4Y TLTs.

As to the actual content of your complaint, I disagree. You don't want to joust, because you're actually not very efficient. What you really want is to lure your opponent into attacking your flank and then wheel as he goes past like a very, very slow matador, but how do you set up and how do you maneuver in order to make that happen?

And whether you want to bunch up or spread out depends on your opponent's list and approach. If you stick together you risk overlapping Range 1 bubbles, which is dangerous for you; if you don't stick together you lose the ability to focus fire, which is nearly as bad. So what you really want is to stick together until your opponent gets close and then break formation quickly, but that takes planning and a good sense of when the right moment is going to arrive.

I'm not trying to say it's a hard list to play, just that it's not as straightforward as it might seem on the receiving end. Like any spam list, it's easy to fly pretty well but hard to fly very well.

I do like how most winning lists become "auto pilot" squads.

Sorry? Where did I say this was "most winning lists"?

Fact is, the 4 Y-Wing with TLT lists requires very little thinking to play whatsoever. You just move, roll three dice, repeat. Then move roll three dice, repeat. Etc. It is the epitome of an autopilot list. But hey, I do like how some people like to be snots with replies like yours.

I disagree. You still have a lot of thinking involved. Granted you have the boon of a long range turret, but these Y-Wings have their very own limitations and even unhinged does only do so much for you.

How do you approach your enemy? Joust? Flank? Run away and make him chase? All very important choices dependant on the enemy list. For example: If they have Autothrusters and are few ships, you might want to joust. While jousting against 4BZ would probably result in a clean defeat.

Do you break formation when someone threatens to get into your donuts? Or do you think the firepower of some of your ships is sufficient to deal with the ones getting to range 1 with your other ships.

How do you deal with asteroids and how do you place them. Do you prefer having extra defense dice from hiding or do you prefer your enemy not to have it?

How do you deal with blockers? Having an action is immensely important to at least modify one of the 2 attacks you get.

I think the most skill is involved when having to deal with blockers or range 1 threats. You have to be very good at maneuvering to maximize your threats while minimizing your opponents. When i recently won against 4Y TLT it was probably because my A-Wing managed to set up some 4 blocks during the game. This was huge, because he just could not inflict the same amount of damage on these turns that he should have been able to. So he lost because i outguessed his maneuvers. Which is the exact opposite of an autopilot list.

So as i have stated many times we should not panic and remain calm facing 4Y TLT lists.

But the most important question i have is if it is actually the most efficient TLT list.

4 HWKs suffer from their worse dials but should have a better damage output if they take Recon Spec.

3 K-Wings however with Recon spec and 4 points of other goodies are also a possibility, and unless blocked, how does their damage output compare to the Y-Wings? I mean you can double focus and you essentially pay for it with 2 less shots per turn and 5 less Hitpoints. Also lets not forget that the K-Wing can forfeit its attack and get to a safer spot if it has to, and you have 4 points left to play with, possibly for Bombs.

Did anyone do the math on this? 4 Y-Wings with one modified shot and one unmodified vs 3 K-Wings with 2 focused shots.

You didn't say that most winning lists are autopilot squads, but it's a really common claim on this forum. We heard it about Han, about Dash, about Chiraneau/Fel, about turrets in general, about Brobots, and now about 4Y TLTs.

People who actually watch those games with the top players quickly realize skill is still extremely important.

I do like how most winning lists become "auto pilot" squads.

Sorry? Where did I say this was "most winning lists"?

Fact is, the 4 Y-Wing with TLT lists requires very little thinking to play whatsoever. You just move, roll three dice, repeat. Then move roll three dice, repeat. Etc. It is the epitome of an autopilot list. But hey, I do like how some people like to be snots with replies like yours.

I disagree. You still have a lot of thinking involved. Granted you have the boon of a long range turret, but these Y-Wings have their very own limitations and even unhinged does only do so much for you.

How do you approach your enemy? Joust? Flank? Run away and make him chase? All very important choices dependant on the enemy list. For example: If they have Autothrusters and are few ships, you might want to joust. While jousting against 4BZ would probably result in a clean defeat.

Do you break formation when someone threatens to get into your donuts? Or do you think the firepower of some of your ships is sufficient to deal with the ones getting to range 1 with your other ships.

How do you deal with asteroids and how do you place them. Do you prefer having extra defense dice from hiding or do you prefer your enemy not to have it?

How do you deal with blockers? Having an action is immensely important to at least modify one of the 2 attacks you get.

I think the most skill is involved when having to deal with blockers or range 1 threats. You have to be very good at maneuvering to maximize your threats while minimizing your opponents. When i recently won against 4Y TLT it was probably because my A-Wing managed to set up some 4 blocks during the game. This was huge, because he just could not inflict the same amount of damage on these turns that he should have been able to. So he lost because i outguessed his maneuvers. Which is the exact opposite of an autopilot list.

I disagree. Sure, you may have to adjust your order of attack depending on what your opponent is playing, but most of the time very little thinking is involved with this particular list. Not to mention its not all that fun to play either.

Perhaps if it had costed 8, we wouldn't have this issue. There'd still be strong 3-TLT squads out there, but you couldn't have four (at least not on extremely durable ships anyway) -- which seems to be the main problem here.

TLTs have a bad rap already (which is probably deserved), but in a strange way I think we might start seeing less of them. At a tournament I went to today, I believe nobody brought 4 -- mainly because nobody wanted to be "that guy" lol. It's the "I'm a ******" card of X-Wing.

Sure, I saw a couple of them in a few lists, but not FOUR. And the thing is, while the thug list is a very potent list against many of the stronger builds out there, it does have some major weaknesses like the doughnut hole as well as crumbling against swarms most of the time.

So I think it's kind of a fad/gimmicky build in the long run. If you plop it down against someone who is caught off-guard and isn't prepared for it, sure, you'll likely pull out the win. However, against someone who has gone up against 4 thugs before and has planned accordingly, then your chance of winning drops significantly.

Plus let's remember one thing: we play this game to have FUN. And frankly, autopilot lists like the 4 thug list is in no way fun for either player. Does that mean it does or doesn't need a nerfing? I don't know, only time will tell. But if anything, I think having two unique dots (meaning you can have two per squad) could potentially work.

there is a certain primal pleasure one gets from rolling that many dice (even if it's only one damage per fistful )