LOL@the people claiming players from the finals table of a Nationals event need to learn to play better. Who are you?

The people who need to learn to play better aren't the ones at the top 16 of a nationals event--it's the people claiming there's no way to counter TLT spam.

Couldn't you simply out damage them by flying an identical list, except with the BTL-A4 title? If you went rebels and R2 on 3 of them, you could make one an ion Stressbot. I know that sounds kind of stupid that the counter is just another quad Y list, but when they have the title they fly drastically different.

Exactly! Ion Warthogs (Ion + BTL + R4 Agro) absolutely destroy TLTs with their high HP and ions making the R1 bubble easy to predict. They are the exact same price as a TLT Y-wing with the green maneuver astromech as well. I imagine B-wings would perform similarly well.

I suppose I should jump in the fire proof bunker after saying this, but.....

I can't imagine anything more boring than flying 4 turrets and only having to decide which target to choose. It would be like flying a box of B-17s and just shooting anything that comes in range. Oooooh the thrill.

Before you get too misty eyed look up bomber losses in WWII.

I suppose I should jump in the fire proof bunker after saying this, but.....

I can't imagine anything more boring than flying 4 turrets and only having to decide which target to choose. It would be like flying a box of B-17s and just shooting anything that comes in range. Oooooh the thrill.

Before you get too misty eyed look up bomber losses in WWII.

So more bombers were lost to flak than to fighters, but what does that have to do with my feeling that quad-TLT is boring? My thought is that boring to play and boring to play against is bad for the game. Is it unbeatable? Of course not. It's just new.

Thinking something is boring is subjective. I like the TLT. If you don't like them, I suggest you find a list that can knock them out of the meta so all the other haters can copy your list

Truly I don't have an issue with the TLT. It's the quad TLT lists. And just that I wouldn't enjoy playing that list myself. If my opponent wants to run it that's his business. I'll either find a way to win or I won't.

Why is everyone acting like the sky is falling? We KNEW this would happen the moment Twin Laser Turrets popped up. And it's a good thing this is happening too. Now that it's won a couple tourneys, the meta shakeup we've been waiting for will kick in full swing, not to mention the new damage deck and the large ship MOV nerf.

With TLT lists rising to prominence, people are going to be looking for counters, and guess what, many of these will be the criminally overlooked ships that the phantom/fat turret meta shut down.

Ps3-8 ships, especially the 3-5 range, have a new lease on life. Cheap, low PS aces like Tarn Mison, Backstabber, Zeta Ace, Guri, pimped out green squadron A Wings, and others will be able to thoroughly abuse PS 2 Y wings and HWKs through arc dodging or shooting first.

Obsidian/tala swarms have a new lease on life, as the ps3-5 generics have a good leg up on tlt's depending on the ship. Low PS swarms like an Academy swarm can block by flying their formation of fighters right where the TLT's want to go (and lets be honest, Y Wings and Hawks are very predictable ships) then the Y's bump, have no action, and are stuck at range 1.

Missiles and torps can murder Y Wings on the first pass, a swarm of tala squadron Z's or ps4 TIE bombers would be terrifying to a TLT swarm.

Three amigo style ace lists can use shenanigans and superior maneuverability to get inside the range 1 bubble and pick off ships one at a time.

High PS bombers can pack proton bombs and break up a formation of Y's extremely easy.

Mangler cannons will shred these things with the new crit deck, etc.

Etc.

Etc.

With two nationals and honestly probably a couple more on the way, all of these are things that will get seriously considered now. So many more ships have an actual reason to be brought into competitive play now, which in turn will encourage other list ideas to counter those.

The TLT is the hero the meta needs, but doenst deserve.

My one worry is that once the chicken little effect wears off and people start figuring out counters, is that the TLT lists will get dropped practically cold turkey, similar to how the phantom disappeared for a while after its nerf. In order for variety to happen in the meta, and CONTINUE to be in the meta, TLT swarms will need to stick around and remain a serious threat, otherwise we'll settle back into the 2 ship builds that have plagued the tourney scene for months.

I've tried the 4-tlts 2 times now and they are -very- good.

I just don't enjoy flying them and won't in the future.

If however, the choice for me is to see 4 tlt ywings on the other side or that frikkin corran paired with that really annoying dash, or Hans and his 3 little pigs.. give me the tlts ALL the time. that fat ships ARE so boring and annoying, and corran.. don't get me started on him (though it's more his best bud r2d2 that makes me want to just leave the table..).

anyway:

tlts are boring. tlts also mean no more (or less) 2 ship-lists. so yay for the tlts.

Making a counter to TLT? I really can't be bothered, its just a really bland turret, that when spammed reduces the game to something I can't be bothered playing. Luckily for me I am not that much of a tournament guy.

I suppose I should jump in the fire proof bunker after saying this, but.....

I can't imagine anything more boring than flying 4 turrets and only having to decide which target to choose. It would be like flying a box of B-17s and just shooting anything that comes in range. Oooooh the thrill.

Before you get too misty eyed look up bomber losses in WWII.

So more bombers were lost to flak than to fighters, but what does that have to do with my feeling that quad-TLT is boring? My thought is that boring to play and boring to play against is bad for the game. Is it unbeatable? Of course not. It's just new.

Why do you think thet are boring? If they're so tough to beat, that alone should provide enough incentive to come up with a counter and that is not boring. You're trying to solve a problem. Tedious maybe, boring? Definitely not.

I suppose I should jump in the fire proof bunker after saying this, but.....

I can't imagine anything more boring than flying 4 turrets and only having to decide which target to choose. It would be like flying a box of B-17s and just shooting anything that comes in range. Oooooh the thrill.

Before you get too misty eyed look up bomber losses in WWII.

So more bombers were lost to flak than to fighters, but what does that have to do with my feeling that quad-TLT is boring? My thought is that boring to play and boring to play against is bad for the game. Is it unbeatable? Of course not. It's just new.

Why do you think thet are boring? If they're so tough to beat, that alone should provide enough incentive to come up with a counter and that is not boring. You're trying to solve a problem. Tedious maybe, boring? Definitely not.

4 thugs with unhinged astromech and TLT win the final.

Turret wing...

Dice rolling: The Game

Whining: The Thread

It was bound to happen.

The question is:

What are we all going to do about it?

I think I'm dusting off sensor jammer phantoms.

See, this guy gets it. Something new comes along that can challenge the old guard? Great! After all the complaining about the previous top lists, you'd think people would be a little bit happier to have something shake things up. So instead of jumping on the forums to ***** and moan at FFG, go build some lists, do some testing, and report back when you've found the silver bullet to TLTs!!

Absolutely **** right!

So the list has now won one major national. Okay. How many has Dash won, Han, Phantoms?

I understand that it's a pretty strong list. But it's definitely beatable by a lot of other strong lists. I guess it will win some more tournaments from now on. But so will other new and old lists.

I absolutely don't get why people are already crying for a nerf... We have not even started to see what the meta looks like.

What mass TLTs will probably do is kick some of the older competitive lists out. And that's not to everyones liking. But i think it's a very healthy thing.

It has also won the NOVA open in Virgina. 85 people.

Forget the TLT, just change the Unhinged Astro Mech. to be any White maneuvers at 3 speed count as green. That's where the really problem lies. Y-wings with 3 moves all green are tough to catch!

Because no one expects the "Spanish inq-Y-sition".

Wait, no. Pretty much everyone is expecting it now.

Would 5 x BSP with Calculation and Howlrunner with Stealth Device and Determination (to be changed for Juke) not work?

You'll be hitting for a lot of crits so you should be able to focus one down per turn where they can land only 8 hits, if they're lucky.

ugh, green dice

in general, though, I have to say that repeated play of both a gold squadron and a warden squadron with TLT has shown me (repeatedly) how ******* frail 8 health, 1 agility is. Goddamn z-95s spank them around if you let them!

the last TLT was Miranda, and she was anything but frail

Forget the TLT, just change the Unhinged Astro Mech. to be any White maneuvers at 3 speed count as green. That's where the really problem lies. Y-wings with 3 moves all green are tough to catch!

I doubt thats going to happen. The easiest fix would be to errata them to 7 or 8pts so you cant 4Y+unhinged anymore, but this has already been discussed here in the forum.

I played the tournament, and people weren't expecting that. I did run IGs with thrusters, predator and jammers, both with mangler cannons, and only faced one Y tlt spam list, on table 6, and totally wrecked it, nothing he could do about it, no damage through.

The thing is, once I made the cut to top 16 (We were more than 150 people in there), I didn't face that list, and ended up in top 8 losing to Vader Juno Palpatine shuttle. But I assure that double thrusters IG just wipes tlt Ys. So do swarms. And probably Poe. Not so fa(s)t guys.

the easiest fix would be to adapt to these slow-ass, stiff ships

this is a classic case of "if you can dodge the wrench, you can dodge the ball!" just replace wrench --> fatass hypermobile m.o.v slop-hog with turret and ball with --> TLT Y-wing

or you could make em K-wing Only. As cool as the Y-wing is, it is simply boring relative to the gloriously disproportional drunken albatross

also, to back up Nyox, aggressors pissed on my TLT parade too

it's just not fair, between auto-thrusters and that boost there's basically no safe place

oh well, we still have conner nets

watching sensor jammer just shut down tlt was glorious

Yep, looks like we've already got our solution, guys.

Sable would probably throw an ORS with IA, Navigator and Ion Projector in front of them and hand the opponent a snickers bar.

watching sensor jammer just shut down tlt was glorious

Yep, looks like we've already got our solution, guys.

Thats not a solution though.

Look at the pre-fix Phantom: There were atleast 2 hard counters: PS11 Han and any decimator with Rebel Captive, But that severely limited the amount of competetive lists and we all know what happened.

If you take Sensor Jammer+AT thats a viable counter to 4Y TLT for sure, but it leaves out like 80% of the ships in the game. I'm pretty sure thats not what FFG had on their mind when designing the card.

Personally i wouldve been interested in seeing what the MOV change +75min rounds wouldve done to reduce the 2ship meta instead of dealing with this boring to fly4Y TLT lists (although i did bring the same list to a 50 man tournament recently and came in 6th, just to see how it flies).

watching sensor jammer just shut down tlt was glorious

Yep, looks like we've already got our solution, guys.

Thats not a solution though.

Look at the pre-fix Phantom: There were atleast 2 hard counters: PS11 Han and any decimator with Rebel Captive, But that severely limited the amount of competetive lists.

If you propose Sensor Jammer+At thats a viable counter to 4Y TLT for sure, but it leaves out like 80% of the ships in the game. I'm pretty sure thats not what FFG had on their mind when designing the card.

*Jammies

*thrusters

*superior jousters (tlt ys are some .85 jousting efficiency or something to a tie's 1), especially PS 3+

*anything fast (and especially with boost), even fatass dumbass turrets can outplay them (dang, aint that a twist; pwts needing to outplay something!)

it's not exactly a rubric cube here. They're slow-ass ships that suck at range 1.

watching sensor jammer just shut down tlt was glorious

Yep, looks like we've already got our solution, guys.

Thats not a solution though.

Look at the pre-fix Phantom: There were atleast 2 hard counters: PS11 Han and any decimator with Rebel Captive, But that severely limited the amount of competetive lists.

If you propose Sensor Jammer+At thats a viable counter to 4Y TLT for sure, but it leaves out like 80% of the ships in the game. I'm pretty sure thats not what FFG had on their mind when designing the card.

*Jammies

*thrusters

*superior jousters (tlt ys are some .85 jousting efficiency or something to a tie's 1), especially PS 3+

*anything fast (and especially with boost), even fatass dumbass turrets can outplay them (dang, aint that a twist; pwts needing to outplay something!)

it's not exactly a rubric cube here. They're slow-ass ships that suck at range 1.

True, but once one blocks you at range 1 and the other 3 are at range 2, You get shot 6 times. You cannot just say they suck at range 1 until you play a player who know how to use them well.

I am a player who knows how to use them well

they suck at range 1

I could get ties to block and they don't suck at range 1 at all (they're quite cost efficient, turns out)

that fact is indisputable. How you get around that fact as a TLT player, and how you deal with that as his opponent, is down to how the two of you play (mainly how well the TLTs can dance around obstacles, cause they're kind of boned without them)

watching sensor jammer just shut down tlt was glorious

Yep, looks like we've already got our solution, guys.

Thats not a solution though.

Look at the pre-fix Phantom: There were atleast 2 hard counters: PS11 Han and any decimator with Rebel Captive, But that severely limited the amount of competetive lists.

If you propose Sensor Jammer+At thats a viable counter to 4Y TLT for sure, but it leaves out like 80% of the ships in the game. I'm pretty sure thats not what FFG had on their mind when designing the card.

*Jammies

*thrusters

*superior jousters (tlt ys are some .85 jousting efficiency or something to a tie's 1), especially PS 3+

*anything fast (and especially with boost), even fatass dumbass turrets can outplay them (dang, aint that a twist; pwts needing to outplay something!)

it's not exactly a rubric cube here. They're slow-ass ships that suck at range 1.

True, but once one blocks you at range 1 and the other 3 are at range 2, You get shot 6 times. You cannot just say they suck at range 1 until you play a player who know how to use them well.

Dont try, fickle is the smartest guy in the room, he will just drop some "facts" about countering quad TLTs. Just like his whole schtick with PWTs not being outplayable because they can always shoot back (which is just pure bs if you consider its 60+pts for a 3dice attack) this one doesn't need actual facts, just claims presented as facts.

Take a look at the list he posted, it acts like there's just 1TLT completely ignoring that the lists that are annoying have 4 of them.

Honestly i would like to see a list of tournaments he placed well in. I would bet money there arent many, if any.