there is a certain primal pleasure one gets from rolling that many dice (even if it's only one damage per fistful )

There is a reason I am looking at getting Ashes.

here's a knife... do something with the knife

pretty sure you're disqualified from a tournament (and banned from the venue) if you pull a knife on your opponent's tlts

I find zero mention of knives in the tournament rules. Can you cite your source please ?

TLTs have a bad rap already (which is probably deserved), but in a strange way I think we might start seeing less of them. At a tournament I went to today, I believe nobody brought 4 -- mainly because nobody wanted to be "that guy" lol. It's the "I'm a ******" card of X-Wing.

Sure, I saw a couple of them in a few lists, but not FOUR. And the thing is, while the thug list is a very potent list against many of the stronger builds out there, it does have some major weaknesses like the doughnut hole as well as crumbling against swarms most of the time.

So I think it's kind of a fad/gimmicky build in the long run. If you plop it down against someone who is caught off-guard and isn't prepared for it, sure, you'll likely pull out the win. However, against someone who has gone up against 4 thugs before and has planned accordingly, then your chance of winning drops significantly.

Plus let's remember one thing: we play this game to have FUN. And frankly, autopilot lists like the 4 thug list is in no way fun for either player. Does that mean it does or doesn't need a nerfing? I don't know, only time will tell. But if anything, I think having two unique dots (meaning you can have two per squad) could potentially work.

I can't agree with this notion of "cheese" lists. If it's legal, play it. If it becomes too powerful, the designers can nerf it. It's not fair to everyone else if you whine and complain about lists you don't like. I don't agree with shaming other players out of playing lists they like and trying to make them feel dirty for their choice in squads. If you can't beat it, that's your problem, not theirs. As long as they're following the rules, you can't say anything about being cheap.

There was an article I read a while ago (can't find it now) about people complaining about cheapskates in Street Fighter. People love to say Hadoken spam isn't playing, or that throwing repeatedly is cheap. The fact is, the designers have put a lot of effort into giving players outs in those situations. The counter is there, but you have to work hard to train your reactions, read your opponent, and master your executions. I believe X-Wing is the same. It's painful and maybe a little unfun to get smashed the first few times, but perseverance and ingenuity will win out in the end. And when you finally beat that list you hate, you'll feel good about all the time and effort you put into it.

I love the synergy between Lone Wolf and N'dru. I do not however love trying to keep him at range three of friendlies.

Last time I rolled with him, it (and his ability) never activated once.

Same here!

the highest tournament score and swiss rank player ran Whisper and Oicuun

#1 Swiss) Yes - with Palpatine. Noteworthy: he didn't lose a ship in Swiss all day, until round 6 when he played vs another VT-49+Palpatine build.

#2 Swiss) Yes, that was me with Ye Olde PS8 Terminator BroBots. Incidentally that's the 3rd tournament in a row that I have been #2 after Swiss. It's less likely to happen again with the new MoV rules.

#3 Swiss) Yes, again with Palpatine on the VT-49. He beat me in Top 4. Incidentally he was my 1st round matchup in the Galactic Cup, he won again, this time 100-0. He is a great opponent and a pleasure to play against. His list is also my Kryptonite.

#4 Swiss) Amazingly... NOT with Palpatine! Expose + E.I instead. Very similar to the list that Morgan won in Australia with the first wave 5 tourney Down Under. Phil is a great guy and a good player - #2 in U.S. Nationals.

#6 Swiss) Its Ron Brannon. 'nuff said. He had one loss and one modified win during Swiss, then got knocked out in Top 16, by... wait for it... Palpatine crew.

Lets get the rest of the Top 16 while we're at it.

#8 Swiss) Two TLTs + Guri. Ira Mayers, he made Top 4 in Worlds last year, an extremely competent player.

#9 Swiss) 2x TLT Y's + IG88B.

#10 Swiss) Chewie / Vrill. Julian, Richard and myself all stayed in the same hotel room - and Julian's company paid. yay. I paid him back by knocking him out in the Top 8. Oops. Well, at least the room was already paid for.

#11 Swiss) RAC / Fel. Ed Horne, host of NOVA Squadron Radio. He was planning on running a TIE Swarm but changed his mind the morning of. Looks like it paid off.

#12 Swiss) RAC + Vader. Yay for TIE Advanced fix!

#13 Swiss) 2x TIE Advanced + Shuttle w/ Palpatine.

#14 Swiss) Chewbacca / Leebo.

#15 Swiss) VI Glitterstim BroBots. He was my Top 16 opponent.

#16 Swiss) Tournament winner, 5 ship rebel swarm with 2x TLT.

#1 Swiss) NEW - Imperial Raider. Oicunn+Palpatine / Whisper.

#2 Swiss) OLD - wave 6. PS8 HLC FCS BroBots

#3 Swiss) NEW - Imperial Raider. Kenkirk+Palpatine / Whisper

#4 Swiss) OLD - wave 5. EI Expose RAC / Whisper

#5 Swiss) NEW - Imperial Raider. Vader / Whisper / Palpatine shuttle

#6 Swiss) OLD - wave 4. Corran / Wedge / Red

#7 Swiss) NEW - wave 7. TLT Miranda / Han.

#8 Swiss) NEW - wave 7. Two TLTs / Guri

#9 Swiss) NEW - wave 7. 2x TLT Y's / IG88B

#10 Swiss) OLD - wave 5 . Chewie / Vrill

#11 Swiss) OLD - wave 6. RAC / Fel

#12 Swiss) NEW - Imperial Raider. RAC / Vader

#13 Swiss) NEW - Imperial Raider. 2x TIE Advanced / Shuttle w/ Palpatine

#14 Swiss) OLD - wave 5. Chewbacca / Leebo

#15 Swiss) NEW - wave 7. VI Glitterstim BroBots

#16 Swiss) NEW - wave 7. 5 ship rebel swarm with 2x TLT

Final tally:

NEW - wave 7: 5 (4 with TLT, 1 with Glitterstim)

NEW - Imperial Raider: 5 (4 with Palpatine crew, 3 with TIE Advanced fix)

OLD - wave 6: 2

OLD - wave 5: 3

OLD - wave 4: 1

Breakdown by round:

Top 16

10 new

6 old

Top 8

6 new

2 old

Top 4

3 new

1 old (me!)

Top 2

2 new

Winner

1 new

Direct comparison: OLD vs NEW

Another perspective: in the Elimination matches, NEW (Raider or wave 7) beat OLD (wave 6 or earlier) in 5 out of 7 matches.

Top 16

wave 7 beats Imperial Raider

wave 7 beats wave 7

Imperial Raider beats wave 4

Imperial Raider beats wave 5

wave 5 beats wave 7

Imperial Raider beats wave 6

Imperial Raider beats wave 5

wave 6 beats wave 7

Top 8

wave 7 beats wave 7

Imperial Raider beats Imperial Raider

wave 6 beats wave 5

Imperial Raider beats Imperial Raider

Top 4

Imperial Raider beats wave 6

wave 7 beats Imperial Raider

Final Table

wave 7 beats Imperial Raider

Elimination Summary:

• BroBots (me) were the only old build remaining by Top 4
• Palpatine crew only lost to TLT or other Palpatine crew
• TLTs only lost to non-TLT once (Top 16)
• TLTs won

In related news, the two largest National events since wave 7, Polish (135 players) and Spanish (I'm guessing more) were both won by 4x Thugs + TLT + unhinged astromechs.

The meta is dead.

The new meta is TLT.

Long live the meta!

I played a couple days ago with a pair of BTLA4-TLT Hired Guns. It reminded me hugely of playing Imperial Guard in WH40k. So many attacks of questionable quality, so many hitpoints with little to defend them from incoming attacks. It was terrifically fun.

thanks for the breakdown there, juggler

I guess you could say it was a day for palpatine

I do like how most winning lists become "auto pilot" squads.

No, just turrets are. Coincidentally those have been dominating the meta for a while now.

I love the TLT meta but it's just autopilot. Pick whatever 3 speed gets you the farthest away each turn. Throw your 6 or 8 attacks at something until it dies.

It's glorious drinking everyone's tears. The third Vengeance weapon, Werner Von Braun would be proud haha.

Many of us were wishing for a painful end to the 2 ships meta.

Now, however, we look at each other in shock, gasping for the cruelty of the end.

The softer among us whisper "What have we done..."

Many of us were wishing for a painful end to the 2 ships meta.

Now, however, we look at each other in shock, gasping for the cruelty of the end.

The softer among us whisper "What have we done..."

now we just gotta photoshop Whisper onto Rorschach

"the gamers will shout up 'save us!'

and Whisper'll whisper '...no'"

thanks for the breakdown there, juggler

I guess you could say it was a day for palpatine

Yeah what I learned was that big daddy p is just as nasty as I thought and that p shuttle + aces is definitely a thing here to stay. TLT seemed less omnipresent than the dark lord himself.

the irony is that TLT really circumvents palpy in the same way it circumvents evades and other once per round effects (by splitting a potential 2 damage into two attacks)

of course, if you use palpy to crit some poor fool into the stone age, then TLT isn't circumventing ****

This is my anti-TLT list -

Binayre Pirate: Proton Rockets; Feedback Array; Hull Upgrade x 5

Probably won't work.

Not many of my lists do.

Cheers

Baaa

the irony is that TLT really circumvents palpy in the same way it circumvents evades and other once per round effects (by splitting a potential 2 damage into two attacks)

of course, if you use palpy to crit some poor fool into the stone age, then TLT isn't circumventing ****

Yeah I feel like this is the strength of palp shuttle and aces vs. tlt lists, assuming the aces don't get instantly murdered, which they should be okay weathering a few shots, they can usually get in a donut and with palp for support clear out a ywing a turn, or come close (4 hits from Vader and 4 from a targeting computer soontir isn't crazy with palp support and the crits from Vader can help a lot)

Err if i see it right its an old list with Palpatine that was extremrly dominant... So if we call that a new list, okay fine!

But what we also see is that most TLTs are mostly run in pairs not in teams of 4. And in Swiss they were not all that convincing as Decimators and Phantoms.

And the first TLT in swiss was Miranda TLT. There was also only one player with TLT top 4. So all in all i would say Palpatine was nore convincing than TLTs, even if they won it in the end (not looking at the fact it was a rebel swarm that had other ships than only TLTs.

So we can't say they are the new meta looking at this tournament. And much less can we say 4YTLTs are the new meta.

Edit: all in all i would go as far as to say that this is a very nice mix of lists right there with a slight Decimator and TLT dominance. And potentially this will be further diversified once players pick up the T-70 more. I hope for it.

So this was the winning list and it had 4 different ship types. I really like that, and i see absolutely no problem with it having 2 TLTs! They are a strong option, but he was 16th after swiss, so it seems he got beaten at least once.

Bandit Squadron Pilot

Bandit Squadron Pilot

Blue Squadron Pilot + Tactician

Gold Squadron Pilot + R3-A2 + Twin Laser Turret

Rebel Operative + Twin Laser Turret + Moldy Crow

(100)

This is my anti-TLT list -

Binayre Pirate: Proton Rockets; Feedback Array; Hull Upgrade x 5

Dropping the Hull Upgrades gets you an extra Binayre Pirate + Proton Rockets, which seems like a good trade to me against TLTs.

If you were also willing to drop the Feedback Arrays, you could have 5x Black Sun Soldiers + Proton Rockets and Serissu.

Dropping the Hull Upgrades gets you an extra Binayre Pirate + Proton Rockets, which seems like a good trade to me against TLTs.

If you were also willing to drop the Feedback Arrays, you could have 5x Black Sun Soldiers + Proton Rockets and Serissu.

Thanks,

I know the Hull Upgrades are expensive, but I like the little bit extra oomph they give me. Against 4 TLT's it's going to take 3 of them hitting every shot to take one down.

That cheap ass little ship is going to force them to concentrate fire.

Against 2 TLT's, even if they hit it's not going to die.

Using it with Feedback Array gives me one more chance to bug zap their asses at Range 1.

Not claiming it's the answer; but it seems to be a more constructive waste of my time than moaning about facing them.

Cheers

Baaa

Dropping the Hull Upgrades gets you an extra Binayre Pirate + Proton Rockets, which seems like a good trade to me against TLTs.

If you were also willing to drop the Feedback Arrays, you could have 5x Black Sun Soldiers + Proton Rockets and Serissu.

Thanks,

I know the Hull Upgrades are expensive, but I like the little bit extra oomph they give me. Against 4 TLT's it's going to take 3 of them hitting every shot to take one down.

That cheap ass little ship is going to force them to concentrate fire.

Against 2 TLT's, even if they hit it's not going to die.

Using it with Feedback Array gives me one more chance to bug zap their asses at Range 1.

Not claiming it's the answer; but it seems to be a more constructive waste of my time than moaning about facing them.

Cheers

Baaa

The headhunter swarm is pretty decent. I ran a bunch of soldiers yesterday with missiles and they did well. Actually a lot better than I expected from them.

I don't think I would use rockets on them, though. The range 1 stipulation makes it difficult for them to use effectively while still surviving the first volley. Homing missiles are a nice option that you can use as soon as you get within range. Clusters could even be better, but you need to get closer for those.

The headhunter swarm is pretty decent. I ran a bunch of soldiers yesterday with missiles and they did well. Actually a lot better than I expected from them.

I don't think I would use rockets on them, though. The range 1 stipulation makes it difficult for them to use effectively while still surviving the first volley. Homing missiles are a nice option that you can use as soon as you get within range. Clusters could even be better, but you need to get closer for those.

I know, it's one of those things that you tinker around with, trying to boost the attack range so that you're hitting all the way in.

But Focus.....

Cheers

Baaa

the irony is that TLT really circumvents palpy in the same way it circumvents evades and other once per round effects (by splitting a potential 2 damage into two attacks)

of course, if you use palpy to crit some poor fool into the stone age, then TLT isn't circumventing ****

I prefer to see it as Palpatine adding some extra security against your green dice.

TIE/fo swarm; instead of doing three damage to kill a Tie, you have to do 4 (fickle green dice notwithstanding). Also, they'll run rings around even an unhinged y wing. From what I've played of the fo so far, once it's on your tail, it stays there.

Or even a standard LN swarm with howlrunner.

Any list basically that takes more tlt shots to eat through.

Zeta Ace's roll is a pretty big pain in the ass for ships wanting to stay away from you

Wow, when I opened this post yesterday I didn´t think it would make so much arguing!!!

Dropping the Hull Upgrades gets you an extra Binayre Pirate + Proton Rockets, which seems like a good trade to me against TLTs.

If you were also willing to drop the Feedback Arrays, you could have 5x Black Sun Soldiers + Proton Rockets and Serissu.

Thanks,

I know the Hull Upgrades are expensive, but I like the little bit extra oomph they give me. Against 4 TLT's it's going to take 3 of them hitting every shot to take one down.

That cheap ass little ship is going to force them to concentrate fire.

Against 2 TLT's, even if they hit it's not going to die.

Using it with Feedback Array gives me one more chance to bug zap their asses at Range 1.

Not claiming it's the answer; but it seems to be a more constructive waste of my time than moaning about facing them.

Cheers

Baaa

Umm. Why not just take 5 Kihraxzes? 5 HP, better dial, better firepower, no Feedback or Rockets. But should work better in this case!

Not many of my lists do.

It's like I'm LOOKING INTO A MIRROR!

Most of my lists fail miserably due to my dice being cursed by a 5-year-old in an elaborate and inexplicable hoodoo ritual my lack of maneuvering skill.

I think your list will work though--dive for range 1 and ZZZZZAP!

I'm pretty sure the developers tested quad TLT loadouts...the fact that they are with us now means that it must have a weakness...it is up to us to build our squads not necessarily against it, but with keeping it in mind.

TIE/fo swarm; instead of doing three damage to kill a Tie, you have to do 4 (fickle green dice notwithstanding). Also, they'll run rings around even an unhinged y wing. From what I've played of the fo so far, once it's on your tail, it stays there.

Or even a standard LN swarm with howlrunner.

Any list basically that takes more tlt shots to eat through.

The problem I see with this is that, even with 4 shots per tie, you are still only putting 6 Epsilons on the board = 24 HP. Old School 8 TIE swarm means also 24 pts, but factoring in the loss of the "4th" TLT shot you could bump that up to 32 pts of output. That's still an even HP as the 4 Y's, except your attrition rate is higher (meaning your damage output drops faster as you lose TIEs). We've not started testing truly anti-TLT lists here, but I can tell you I haven't seen 4 TLTs lose yet.