Yes, that is what I meant. I ought to have clarified that, but I didn't expect it to be the only takeaway from my post.

3. Kanpeki won , and every attempt at rebellion will fail, at least until the third day of thunder in a thousand year. The Great Clans submit and find a new place into Onyx or die.

Good luck to your project, but I just can't get behind the conditions placed on this Spider win.

I'd much rather see a place for those hardline anti-Daigotsu types to exist than not, and a literally divided empire would offer that in ways that this cannot.

It was discussed that the colonies could become a place for the anti-kanpeki gang to retreat and regroup. I must admit I'm not sure how big of a threat they should be, however. Too big, and we end up with a setting that ressemble maybe a bit too much KYD. The fact Kanpeki ruled pretty much unopposed was, I thought, a good way to differentiate the two alternate settings.

A good way to make the rebels important and strong, while not an immediate threat to his rule would be gaijins. The geographical realities of the colonies mean a vast majority of the gaijin threats willing to invade Rokugan would have to face the samurais in the colonies first. It would also give an incentive for Kanpeki not to eliminate them. Even if they raided the frontiers in a sort of anti-shadowlands way, they would still have their usefulness to the Onyx Empire as a buffer against outside threats.

I find it somewhat ironic that your efforts to avoid the honourable remnants of the empire resembling KYD would have them leave in roughly the same fashion, with the main difference being how far away they travel. (Colonies vs Mantis Isles) While I haven't had the opportunity to check the Atlas, the Burning Sands map of Rokugan and the rest of the world (as unappealing as that map is) would suggest that passing through the colonies is unnecessary. Either way, I think finding a reason for a stalemate between two empires of Rokugan would be a more interesting resolution than throwing gaijin around for the purpose of having uninterrupted Spider time.

It was sorrowful enough news to hear that the Unicorn Clan would start Onyx in the Colonies. What you propose here is unacceptable, count me out of this. I did not support Chagatai's push for the throne, I am definitely not going to bow to an iron fisted cruel child tyrant that is Kanpeki, There are many options open for each clan other than bowing the knee and accepting an abusive ruler.

Shinjo Yosama

I did not support Chagatai's push for the throne, I am definitely not going to bow to an iron fisted cruel child tyrant that is Kanpeki

Shinjo Yosama

It was sorrowful enough news to hear that the Unicorn Clan would start Onyx in the Colonies. What you propose here is unacceptable, count me out of this. I did not support Chagatai's push for the throne, I am definitely not going to bow to an iron fisted cruel child tyrant that is Kanpeki, There are many options open for each clan other than bowing the knee and accepting an abusive ruler.

Shinjo Yosama

And that's why I wanted this to be an alternate reality. The last thing I want is for the Onyx Empire I presented in this thread to become the official timeline. However, look at it as a sort of ''What if?''. What if Kanpeki takes the throne and manages to keep it? How will it change Rokugan? How do you have to adapt the Clans and the timeline to work in this setting.

I like Iron Rokugan as an alternate setting. It has many really cool concepts but it would made a bad ''canon'' setting because it isn't L5R. Too many concepts were bent or just broken to make it work as a whole for the fans to enjoy it and relate to it the way they relate to the real setting. I totally understand that and this is exactly the same thing with the Onyx Empire. I'm not asking you to embrace this concept and lobby FFG to make it happen. I'm just having fun with the storyline and asking for help and guidance along the way to make it as plausible and enjoyable as possible.

What if Kanpeki takes the throne in the canon? Like, suppose FFG chooses to continue with the Onyx Edition storyline? Posted about this in more detail above.

What if Kanpeki takes the throne in the canon? Like, suppose FFG chooses to continue with the Onyx Edition storyline? Posted about this in more detail above.

the wailing of a thousand thousand l5r fans would fill the skies, and the only sound you would hear over them would be the fell laughter of the spider players. i think you would be hard pressed to find a single person right now who thinks thats likely, but it would be HILARIOUS if it happened. i get why AEG wanted to do it. a new day of thunder resets the scene, lets them sort of clean the slate. But it was INCREDIBLY heavy handed and didn't solve any of the narrative problems or community problems surrounding the spider. i suspect that FFG is well aware of this, and will steer clear. But who knows. Maybe they figure two years is enough to ignore the community problems and they think they've got enough talented writers to solve the narrative ones. i'm open to it. i play spider and worship Daigotsu. given that i suspect the alternative is the erasure of his legacy, i really have nothing to lose.

I get that this is a great exercise for the Spider Players, but I can't see it as anything more than a Spider Clan fanfiction, just like the Onyx storyline as a whole.

What I would like to see (and if I couldn't just remove the Spider altogether) is:

- Kanpeki, with the corrupted Daigotsu, the Chuda and the Nothing families, abandon any pretense and become Shadowlands Horde again in an attempt to take the throne;

- The Susumu, following the leadership of Shibatsu, unifies the pure elements of the Spider and side with the traditional clans against Kampeki's Coup;

- The new pure elements of the Spider is formed by the uncorrupted Daigotsu as the Sahara Reformists, adopting his name as the family name, the Order of the Spider, the Susumu and the Gyiushi serving as priests and mystic blacksmiths. They all adopt the worship of Ema-O and become empowered by the death god;

This could "fix" the Spider Clan, in my vision. Now they, along with all the traditional clans, becomes the resistance against the Kampeki Regime, kicking Jigoku asses and taking Nothing names.

This is a variant thats come up on the spider forums, and i like it. Despite my obsession with Daigotsu i find the notion of a version of the spider clan without him, particularly one that takes Emma-O as its patron, i think its super interesting. My only quibble with that is that i don't think i'd use Sahara. He was never particular about his purity. though granted, off the top of my head i can't name a sufficiently high ranked, untainted spider samurai to use instead.

Sahara really is the only untainted Daigotsu we ever saw get any major prominence. Although I suppose the family could be named after Tenbatsu, who carried the Clan Sword and sat on the regency council for a bit and had to stay untainted as a result...

Sahara really is the only untainted Daigotsu we ever saw get any major prominence. Although I suppose the family could be named after Tenbatsu, who carried the Clan Sword and sat on the regency council for a bit and had to stay untainted as a result...

yeah, its a fair point. we're not exactly overrun with them, and its not like we can import someone. i wouldn't complain certainly. and given that he's a duelist it would predispose them to being a duelist family, which i would certainly not object to.

What if Kanpeki takes the throne in the canon? Like, suppose FFG chooses to continue with the Onyx Edition storyline? Posted about this in more detail above.

I had already thought about this, and even decided that I may have set out Onyx Edition just like I sat out the KYD Arc. I would just see myself as part of the delegation going beyond the Empire's borders to seek out gaijin allies. I always liked the idea of exploration, and is a big reason I am drawn to MMO's. I really like to go hiking, or rafting. I was a constant worry to my Mother growing up, because of my habit of going off exploring at a moments notice.

What if Kanpeki takes the throne in the canon? Like, suppose FFG chooses to continue with the Onyx Edition storyline? Posted about this in more detail above.

the wailing of a thousand thousand l5r fans would fill the skies, and the only sound you would hear over them would be the fell laughter of the spider players. i think you would be hard pressed to find a single person right now who thinks thats likely, but it would be HILARIOUS if it happened. i get why AEG wanted to do it. a new day of thunder resets the scene, lets them sort of clean the slate. But it was INCREDIBLY heavy handed and didn't solve any of the narrative problems or community problems surrounding the spider. i suspect that FFG is well aware of this, and will steer clear. But who knows. Maybe they figure two years is enough to ignore the community problems and they think they've got enough talented writers to solve the narrative ones. i'm open to it. i play spider and worship Daigotsu. given that i suspect the alternative is the erasure of his legacy, i really have nothing to lose.

Like cielago said, I, too, believe it to be extremely unlikely. If a similar scenario ends up as being the official storyline, however, I will certainly take some pride in the fact that I maybe inspired the decision makers. Such a thing would also means input from other clans as to how it can be implemented would help appease some of the fanbase. But the odds are very much stacked against it.

I get that this is a great exercise for the Spider Players, but I can't see it as anything more than a Spider Clan fanfiction, just like the Onyx storyline as a whole.

What I would like to see (and if I couldn't just remove the Spider altogether) is:

- Kanpeki, with the corrupted Daigotsu, the Chuda and the Nothing families, abandon any pretense and become Shadowlands Horde again in an attempt to take the throne;

- The Susumu, following the leadership of Shibatsu, unifies the pure elements of the Spider and side with the traditional clans against Kampeki's Coup;

- The new pure elements of the Spider is formed by the uncorrupted Daigotsu as the Sahara Reformists, adopting his name as the family name, the Order of the Spider, the Susumu and the Gyiushi serving as priests and mystic blacksmiths. They all adopt the worship of Ema-O and become empowered by the death god;

This could "fix" the Spider Clan, in my vision. Now they, along with all the traditional clans, becomes the resistance against the Kampeki Regime, kicking Jigoku asses and taking Nothing names.

And the Spider Clan loses 75% of its fanbase in the process. And that's a problem I totally understand. The vast majority of the non-Spider L5R fans totally hate the fact Daigotsu's followers are now a great Clan. I admit many elements of the clan makes this very hard to integrate logically into the society, but like I said earlier, that's beside the point of the thread. I could have kept it a project limited to the Spider Clan forums, true, but I felt input from more members of other clans would help shape it into something more believable and logical.

Even then, I'm perfectly aware I'm presenting a very Spider-centric alternate reality and I am not ashamed of it. I absolutly love alternate settings and that's why I believe the two Imperial Histories book were among the best L5R books ever published. All I wanted was a discussion about this setting within the confines of the rules I explicitly made in the first thread. If there's absolutly no interest from any of you for this, we can just let it die. I totally understand your point of views about the Spider and the last thing I want is push a pro-spider, pro-onyx agenda.

I firmly believe this was a bad story decision to push for such an arc. As an alternate setting, however, I think it has potential, that's all.

i don't think any objects to Imperial Histories style alternate timelines. i think its spider-centric alternate timelines, especially given the lingering bitter taste of onyx edition, that people are reacting to. i really do think your project has merit man, but i think you're really better off focusing efforts on the spider forum. i mean, you do you, but i think you're going to find this a perpetually unwelcoming environment and spend more time defending the concept than actually talking about ideas.

3. Kanpeki won , and every attempt at rebellion will fail, at least until the third day of thunder in a thousand year. The Great Clans submit and find a new place into Onyx or die.

This sort of submit or die as the only options for non-spider is what really kills this. There is so many other possibilities. What about the player votes? What about the actual struggle to get Kanpeki on the throne? What about the other Hantei blood out there? Kanpeki is not the only descendent of the Hantei bloodline. What about the Iweko line? Currently the Emerald Throne is seated, albeit Seikin is an oddball, and a bit daft... but he is Emperor.

The second thing killing this for most would be how spider-centric it really is presented. I for one am of the opinion the spider clan should never have been formed, and certainly not granted great clan status. The spider are just puppets of Jigoku, the spider are Shadowlands Horde and no lies, or mask can cover that up any longer. We the Unicorn extended you a hand of friendship, and alliance. You spat in our face, and laughed at our backs. We once could have been your staunchest allies. You guys threw that away.

Shinjo Yosama

In real history, once the dust settles whomever is emperor usually gets the loyalty of the defeated parties, maybe their leaders would have to be changed, or hostages taken.

I imagine, if the Spider manage to take the throne, this means they beat all the other clans, so Rokugan would be completely devastated, and most of the samurai would be dead or weak. If Kampeki was smart, he would take the name Hantei to remind the clans of his descent. He would then focus on rebuilding Rokugan, while solidifying his control.

And... most likely any other pretender would have been assassinated.

Also, I don't think Kampeki would force the clans to change; after all Bushido is VERY USEFUL IN MAINTAINING OBEDIENCE.

But, there prob. would be a certain level of fear, and a shadow war between the Scorpion and the Spider, and the Ikoma.

He would need the clans to resume their duties. That includes the Mantis.

I also think maho would still be restricted, now that he has the throne, can he trust Jigoku?

Hmmm . . . not my cup of tea (Before Spider became a great clan, I had 14 people in my group; 8 saw it as the final straw, quit, and, thus far, we have not been able to lure them back. Other friends have joined up, but . . . I miss some of those people.)

That being said--how about a few 'bones' for the side that doesn't care for the Spider to add to the mix that are equally likely to annoy some folks:

Every story needs an antagonist. Opposition is what drives drama.

If you are going to eliminate the "good guys" as opponents, then remember there is no honor among thieves--pull in opposition from the dark side.

Yoritomo Ichido opens a black scroll to steal Yoritomo's power/position for himself (that's what the winner said he envisioned), and he ends up infused with part of the Thunder Dragon's power, but like the original Air Dragon, also becomes tainted by having willingly opened the scroll of his own free will and for his own purposes. With part of the power of a celestial dragon within him, he becomes first a major asset to the Daigotsu scion, then gradually the ambition that led him to tank Yoritomo in the first place leads him to seek greater and greater power from Jigoku until he becomes a rival for Jigoku's favor in opposition to Kanpeki.

Embrace the cliche: marry the daughter off to someone who opposes Kanpecki and have her really fall in love with him (it is a family tradition to love one's mate after all). Nice conflicting loyalty bit there.

Throw a bone to the Mantis--since you've gutted them completely thus far--as part of being deposed from the heavens have Yoritomo return as a mortal (that is another tradition from the original setting--that mortals who become Gods get returned to Ningen-do when displaced). He despised the Shadowlands, especially the idea of them damaging "his" empire. So . . . either make him the leader of the opposition or put him in the position of adviser to the leader of the opposition. Better yet, you could even make him immortal and in disguise since he was supposed to have become a kami and that would put him in the same sort of role that the Rakshasa who raised him was.

Sorry, had to drive home after work . . . let me continue my suggestions for the "rest" of the Empire:

Let's see--the wholesale slaughter of the Crab? Not so impressed with that--send the core of them to the Colonies and have "ronin" groups of Hiruma running about "scouting" the Empire for the eventual re-taking of it. Keep the Big Boys down practicing to take on Big obstacles while the sneakier side deals with the Empire. Oooo . . . sneakier guys . . . have the Yasuki appear to "betray" the Crab and go over to Kanpecki's side so they can become "the Carp Clan"--I've always wanted them to do that.

Crane: Obviously the Emperor will need a new wife (or two or ten). I always loved Doji Nachiko (spelling?) from Mirror, Mirror. A tainty Crane who is both a egoist about her own looks and more loyal to her original clan than her mate would be a great Empress to have strolling around, and it would be far too cliched to make it a Shosuro. Or . . . maybe she could actually love Kanpecki, but always feel overshadowed by the wife who was willing to be killed to empower him.

Dragon: Like Yoritomo, Togashi despised the taint and Shadowlands and had a soft spot for the underdogs who could one day save the day--clearly that role needs to go to the monks, who need to spend their time going back and forth to the Colonies (Centipede tattoos anyone?).

Lion: I'm drawing a blank right this minute, but I'm thinking it has to fall to the Kitsu to be the major opposition there. The Ancestors would pretty much demand it, wouldn't they?

Mantis/Phoenix: Already covered my first impulsive suggestions . . . but . . . the "minor clan" Phoenix might be welcome with the Centipede. Hmmm . . . you know . . . an underground movement by the "pure" shugenja who find the taint anathema might be a nice set up. What remains of the Phoenix, the Centipede, the purer Asahina, the Yogo, and Kitsu, etc . . . along with the remnants of the Seppun . . . could be a good base to build that on.

Scorpion: I'm a bit uncertain what you see the boys in red doing. Honestly, I don't see them doing anything except appearing to go with the flow while attempting to undercut every step along the way. I mean, seriously.

Unicorn: Sorry, I'm a bit strapped for a specific id for them right this moment. I suppose, like the Crab, have them retreat to the Colonies to prepare to take back the Empire.

3. Kanpeki won , and every attempt at rebellion will fail, at least until the third day of thunder in a thousand year. The Great Clans submit and find a new place into Onyx or die.

This sort of submit or die as the only options for non-spider is what really kills this. There is so many other possibilities. What about the player votes? What about the actual struggle to get Kanpeki on the throne? What about the other Hantei blood out there? Kanpeki is not the only descendent of the Hantei bloodline. What about the Iweko line? Currently the Emerald Throne is seated, albeit Seikin is an oddball, and a bit daft... but he is Emperor.

The second thing killing this for most would be how spider-centric it really is presented. I for one am of the opinion the spider clan should never have been formed, and certainly not granted great clan status. The spider are just puppets of Jigoku, the spider are Shadowlands Horde and no lies, or mask can cover that up any longer. We the Unicorn extended you a hand of friendship, and alliance. You spat in our face, and laughed at our backs. We once could have been your staunchest allies. You guys threw that away.

Shinjo Yosama

to be really accurate, AEG threw it away. the spider players have always valued the HELL out of the unicorn-spider alliance and worked to preserve it. the fact that the first victim of Kanpeki's rokugan roflstomp was to be the unicorn was just one more sign of AEG's perverse mistreatment of its own fanbase.

I also valued the alliance, and detested the Story Team's determination to interpret it flavorwise as the Unicorn being duped (cf. Daigotsu Chaozhu's flavor text). Yeah: the clan that managed to purge the Kolat infestation from our own ranks ...we're so easy to use and manipulate.

Yeah: the clan that managed to purge the Kolat infestation from our own ranks ...we're so easy to use and manipulate.

Eh, Shinjo-Kami did most of the heavy lifting there...

But yes, despite the Spider playerbase (particularly at Winter Court events) trying to be genuine allies to the Unicorn, in-universe, it began with duping and continued in much the same manner.

But at least the playerbases were actually semi-into it. I have nothing but sympathy for the Dragon playerbase after their clan's enforced stewardship got them dragged into the line of fire in defense of the Spider and then, inevitably, betrayed when their doomed-to-failure duty failed...

I wrote this in the "Imperial Histories III" thread:

Kanpeki rules as a "duly recognized heir" of the Hantei bloodline. With the seals of Jigoku broken and allowed to consume Rokugan, though they no longer call themselves as such, the Spider Clan become the de facto Imperial Family (the Otomo, Seppun and Miya are exiled). The ambient Taint that had lingered during the Iweko years becomes visible, and the Tainted have no choice but to accept Kanpeki's rule. Those untainted are given the choice to either fight (they lose) or have the tables turned upon them: go into exile in the Colonies as the Tainted Spider had once been.

The "1000 Years of Darkness" doesn't apply though, since those who once called themselves the Spider Clan have created a structured society that makes sure the infestation of oni isn't as much as that alternate realm. Peasants still work the fields, trade routes still function, the courts still determine next year's fashions. But everything is darker and much more sinister.

With Rokugan under an Obsidian dominion, seven families take on the traditional roles of the other Thunder Clans:

Daigotsu (Lion) - First among equals, the Daigotsu family keep a semblance of the samurai traditions alive in the Obsidian Empire, albeit in a twisted form.

Chuda (Phoenix) - With their mastery of maho, and with Shahai as their patron Fortune, the Chuda family make sure that the ritual shedding of blood is constant and replenished.

Susumu (Crane) - It becomes the responsibility of the Susumu to maintain a structured and cultured society, to define beauty and order as is fit for Rokugan's new normal.

Gyushi (Crab) - The forgers now man the emptied ramparts of the Kaiu, Khol and Scorpion walls, regulating the oni and watching for those who seek to disrupt the Hantei's dominion.

Kokujin (Dragon) - For those who serve the Kokujin, enlightenment is fraught with inevitable risk and madness. To the Kokujin themselves, their version of enlightenment is the key to more power.

Goju (Scorpion) - The faceless shadows of the Goju watch over former Scorpion lands. On the whole little has changed.

Ninube (Unicorn) - As rugged individualists, the Ninube scour the Shiotome plains for remnants of ancient civilizations.

The Dark Hantei also replaces the jeweled Champions with his own: Obsidian, Onyx and Alabaster (a creation of mine to substitute the Amethyst).

In the Second City, far from the Dark Hantei's influence, the remaining Clans have no choice but to work together to retake Rokugan, province by province if necessary. Most of the Clans also have to re-define part of their identity:

Crab - with the Wall useless, they become the innovators.

Crane - keepers of tradition and preservers of Emerald Empire culture.

Dragon - explorers and bargainers of the spirit worlds.

Lion - the Clan most decimated; now they have to look inward to find out (and perhaps re-define) what Honor means.

Phoenix - experimenters of new forms of magic and how they can be realigned with Rokugani's traditional mystic structure.

Unicorn - they once again travel the world to look for gaijin allies, no matter how unlikely they may be.

Scorpion - the other Clans believe that the Scorpion have betrayed the Emerald Empire and have bargained with the Dark Hantei to preserve who they are (especially with Ryoko Owari becoming a "safe zone" for the untainted, and with a Scorpion as Alabaster Champion), but the Scorpion (with the support of the Iweko heir Miaka) secretly work to hinder the forces of Jigoku from spreading further.

Notes:

The Susumu family have many of their members refuse the Spider Hantei's Taint, but since their daimyo is Shibatsu, the Emperor has to grudgingly accept their status. Perhaps it is through them that the key to retake Rokugan lies. The untainted Spider monks as well pique the interest of the other Clans, especially as they enter and exit the High House of Light in former Dragon lands.

And through this all, a generations-old prophecy circulates in the streets of the Second City: "When the last Akodo falls, so falls the last Hantei."

I also valued the alliance, and detested the Story Team's determination to interpret it flavorwise as the Unicorn being duped (cf. Daigotsu Chaozhu's flavor text). Yeah: the clan that managed to purge the Kolat infestation from our own ranks ...we're so easy to use and manipulate.

Yeah: the clan that managed to purge the Kolat infestation from our own ranks ...we're so easy to use and manipulate.

Eh, Shinjo-Kami did most of the heavy lifting there...

But yes, despite the Spider playerbase (particularly at Winter Court events) trying to be genuine allies to the Unicorn, in-universe, it began with duping and continued in much the same manner.

But at least the playerbases were actually semi-into it. I have nothing but sympathy for the Dragon playerbase after their clan's enforced stewardship got them dragged into the line of fire in defense of the Spider and then, inevitably, betrayed when their doomed-to-failure duty failed...

For exemple, I can totally see an unicorn shogun or emerald champion and a dragon imperial advisor.

This sort of submit or die as the only options for non-spider is what really kills this. There is so many other possibilities. What about the player votes? What about the actual struggle to get Kanpeki on the throne? What about the other Hantei blood out there? Kanpeki is not the only descendent of the Hantei bloodline. What about the Iweko line? Currently the Emerald Throne is seated, albeit Seikin is an oddball, and a bit daft... but he is Emperor.

I would second this, and also add: "submit or die" and be forced to continue to do so for a thousand years makes the entire notion even more unpalatable to me, personally, as even a speculative alternate universe. I have no interest in being told that in a given setting, no matter what is done, whatever may be attempted to drive off the darkness clutching the Empire, it will fail, because, because.

A Thousand Years of Darkness was a vaguely interesting thought experiment that created a scarce handful of interesting characters. As something inflicted as a blanket directive in a setting? Never. And that is what this storyline notion still is, because it removes all ultimate agency from all groups but the Spider. Because they will fail, by fiat, for a millennium.

A Thousand Years of Darkness was a vaguely interesting thought experiment that created a scarce handful of interesting characters. As something inflicted as a blanket directive in a setting? Never. And that is what this storyline notion still is, because it removes all ultimate agency from all groups but the Spider. Because they will fail, by fiat, for a millennium.

Or you instead could not try to topple the dark forces right away but first try to get a alliance running, than go for the collection of goods weapons and optinon to counter their stuff and finaly get all togehter an preapare the things while waiting for a good oportunity. The setting is not removing all these things and the drive to get the empire back it is just says you can´t do it right away which is not really a bad thing cause therefore you can have opportunities for internal struggles inside of the clans which could slowly sucumb to power and temptation from the dark side of the setting.