Can we agree that, “Hey *%&!face, put those tokens next to the ship, or else. You have to, it's on page nine.” is not the right way in addressing the issue? And, “would you so kindly place the tokens near the base? I'm having a hard time seeing/remembering/analyzing them. Thank you.” is a rational way to get a positive response?

I'm sure we all agree with that, I think part of the problem is that people keep bringing that up as though people who might not agree to the proposed rule change are somehow more than averagely likely to be such rude people, which is quite insulting.

So I set my card in the play area. Lol

I was mostly trying to be funny about rulesawyering. I believe this topic has devolved a little. I am not sure that some people who are discussing it one way or the other really feel as strongly as it is showing. So please everyone. Remember, as long as it's a request one way or the other. It's all good. And just relax everyone.

And pew pew pew.

He started it!

Vykes everything I said was in the general hypothetical "you" and not you specific

From my point of view, the conversation looks like this:I don't want to do this thing, and it makes no difference to the gameplay.WELL, I WANT YOU TO DO THAT THING, AND I WILL MAKE YOU.Oh, well that kind of makes you an ******* then, doesn't it?I can fully accept that the conversation looks exactly the opposite from the other side of the fence, but this is one of those areas where there's really just two heads butting and no room for compromise. The tokens HAVE to be put somewhere, and wherever they go, SOMEONE is going to be unhappy about it.The fact that the rules state a preference means absolutely nothing to me in this instance.

You KEEP repeating this "it makes no difference to gameplay". It does, and just because you disagree doesn't deny the other person the right to their opinion on the matter, or invalidate their decision not to agree to your house rule.

Not that the actual effect should have a bearing on the principal at stake here, but maybe if you understand it you'll see why you're wrong to make such a big deal out of it and be so unfriendly to people who don't agree with you, and then maybe you'll carry that forwards to other situations where you don't understand your opponent's point of view, so I'll try to explain.

It's not about whether you /can/ see the tokens, it's about how naturally and instinctively you build up an accurate mental image of the state of the game through your normal studying of the ships on the table, without having to break from your routine to remember "oh, we're doing a different thing today, I need to add an extra step into my analysis", and also that extra step is more complex: rather than the instant mental proces of "that ship has that token" you've got "right, that ship is the..., OK, where's its card, oh, it's that one is it, no wait it's that one, OK, where are its tokens, right" for each ship. It disrupts the building in your mind of that game state (at least it does for some people, and it's not up to you or anyone else to tell them it shouldn't).

Then how on earth do you cope with the fact that practically EVERY OTHER piece of information is on or by the ship card? I dont understand how for defence tokens, damage cards, upgrades and command dials (but not tokens!) you manage just fine, but the command tokens being there spins you out.

As I said I was faced with this yesterday, I was putting my tokens on my card and my opponent would put his on the ship. I asked should I put my tokens on my ship, as I normally use the card. I ended up meeting him half way and put my tokens and damage cards where they were visible in front of the ship on the table. Where the black neoprene would contrast the token.

Perhaps in future I may compromise further, and make a little cardboard template with Command Icon, Ship 1, 2, 3, 4 and room to place my command tokens and defense tokens. I can then give my opponent a set of tokens and my card and he can track my status if he wants.

Perhaps we could create an app for that?

Give me a few more days. Designed a 'ship dock station' as I'm going to call it. To hold all the info. Hope it looks as good as I want it too.

What would be amazing would be a wooden strip or a plastic strip that is set for small ships, and one for bigger. The small ship one should be able to hold 2 tokens and the medium ship one should hold 3 tokens along the side.

I just had to be sure Scottie. It's gotten fairly heated and sort of straddling the lines with generalities vs. The 'you' that's being bandied a bit. I didn't want to misunderstand.

A lot of people are saying that placing command tokens on the ship base is the standard operating procedure, but that isn't the rules. The tokens are supposed to be placed next to the ship on the play space, not on the ship (p.3) and as previously mentioned by Altahara, the ship token 'IE ship base' is part of the component of the ship (p.10).

Does that matter? Our practice of assigning command tokens to ship cards (or more precisely, to an area next to the ship cards in line with the defence tokens), came to avoid the confusion caused by having a lot of ships and squadrons in close proximity. I happen to like it for a host of other reasons, too.

Much like the 'straighten the maneuvering tool' rule, it is an official rule and one that me and my opponents were fine with ignoring for the benefit of quicker and more effective gaming. For the record, we also use a die to track turns, compared to those little turn chits. That, tokens on the base, not straightening the maneuvering tool, using different numbers of segments on the maneuvering tool itself, converting our ships (fine, that one's just me ), all of those are deviations from the rules.

If I go to a tournament (I'm planning on going to the Sullust thing, a 450 mile trip), I'll make every attempt to revert from my usual habits. But just 'getting over it' and following the rules in print makes me feel like I'm in an empty store with one of those winding 'cattle chute' partitions, and had to walk all the way through them instead of just ducking under the last one and going to the waiting cashier. So, what are the purpose of the rules and to what degree are they immutable and infallible?

"Who invaded Spain in the 8th century?"

"The Moors"

"Ooooh, it's the moops. The correct answer is the Moops."

"Let me see that. It's not Moops you jerk, it's Moors. That's a misprint."

"I'm sorry, the card says the Moops'."

Not the same, but in the spirit of the argument

Entertainingly, i've never ever seen this played "correctly". Most people i've seen put them on the card (including myself), and a few peeps put them on the ship base itself. Never seen command tokens placed next to the ship in the play area.

Well my two bits is lierially every argument so far goes both ways...

The main ones being it is impolite(forcing your prefrence with rules/ changing rules without consent)and it effects gameplay.

Honestly both sides are looking at the extreme other side and saying that's rude because your a %$?@% %#?% about it for what ever reason while they envision themselves as being polite a bolt the point.

Regarding gameplay argument can be made that A) it doesn't effect it (which it doesn't in the sense that it moves models or adds dice) or B)that it is potentially an important issue (which it is for someoeple because of how they process information and therefore affects their choices) but there are two sides to that part as well since sure where my tokens are might affect YOUR knowledge of my tokens but they ALSO AFFECT MY knowledge of my tokens.

For example as mentioned earlier I do not like putting tokens on the ship base or in the play area because they always seem to hide from me (vsd's have a big but lol) so gameplay it is better for me to place them by my cards. And if it is hard for my opponent to see them he will usually just ask and I will promptly inform him. But if it was important to him I WOULD TRY TO ACCOMMODATE HIM, because that is polite. (Believe It or not if you put your opponent first in makes the game more fun for both sides)

So at the end of the day I suggest let your opponent play what he is comfortable with and just ask him for any info that you need. He should be happy to inform you. And if it is important to your play style POLITELY request whatever it is and then move on.

Then how on earth do you cope with the fact that practically EVERY OTHER piece of information is on or by the ship card? I dont understand how for defence tokens, damage cards, upgrades and command dials (but not tokens!) you manage just fine, but the command tokens being there spins you out.

I already addressed that on page two:

Oh, I agree, I hate clutter (it bugs me when people leave their dials and templates all over the board) and I agree with Stasy's point too, I just feel the instant, accurate gamestate impression trumps them. It's just a shame the damage (and, in X-Wing, the shield) state isn't reflected in the play area too, but that would involve too many tokens and the equation would therefore be different. As usual, I think FFG got it spot on. They are good, aren't they?

Anyway, you think this is bad, try Imperial Assault!

Also, I'm sure you can appreciate the difference between things that change slowly and are present almost all the time, like defence tokens, and things that are added and removed in the course of the round, like command tokens. On the whole I think it would be nicer to have defence tokens by the ships, but I assume FFGs reasoning was something to do with what I just said.

As I've said before, however, the reason your opponent disagrees with you is irrelevant. It's not up to you to decide how valid their opinion is, or to unilaterally decide which rules are important and which you'll change.

Let me put it this way:

• Games have rules, that's an intrinsic part of being a game

• If the players haven't discussed it beforehand, then the set of rules you're playing by is assumed to be the set that came printed with the game

• If you want to change the rules, then you're no longer proposing to play the game that you agreed to play with your opponent. If they politely bring this is up and you refuse to play the game they came to play, you've effectively misled them and wasted their time.

If you can't agree to these points then I think you're probably right - when you meet a player who doesn't agree with you it's probably best for all concerned that the game doesn't happen.

All I can say is I hope you treat the 'rule' about straightening your maneuver tool prior to each ship activation as seriously.

Because it's just as important as this one.

Good grief....

When I left the other day I did not expect to come back to 5 pages of this...

What do you mean, cluttered? The icons pertaining to information of own and enemy craft are correctly displayed on your heads-up display according to Imperial Directive 67, I hope. Otherwise would you just see pretty images. It's a battle, not a holovid, always remember that, sailor.

Entertainingly, i've never ever seen this played "correctly". Most people i've seen put them on the card (including myself), and a few peeps put them on the ship base itself. Never seen command tokens placed next to the ship in the play area.

How many times would you have to move the tokens around.

Oh looky squadrons coming in, let's move the tokens.

Just moved, time to move the tokens.

Hey are you sliding along me, guess I need to move the tokens.

Where do the tokens go in a situation like this one?

Empty side next to the b wings. Lol but I see your point.

I'd say a compromise. During your turn. If you generate a token. Place the dial on the card. Token next to ship. When you are finished with it move token to card.

I tend to put them on my card simply because the acrylic tokens seem more likely to slide off the bases, especially the small ones. If people want me to place them on the base, I will go along with it but it is very annoying to have to put one of them back on every time you move the ship.

Empty side next to the b wings. Lol but I see your point.

I'd say a compromise. During your turn. If you generate a token. Place the dial on the card. Token next to ship. When you are finished with it move token to card.

I think the game looks much cooler without any tokens next to or on ship bases. I also tend to want to know the status of my opponent's defense tokens much more often than what command tokens they have - not to mention remembering what upgrades they have - which requires me to look at their ship card pile anyway. I wish FFG would let the official rule be that players can play those tokens either on the ship base or next to their ship card area.

It should really be so simple in both this instance and every game ever made / played.

You go into it expecting to have to play by the written rules and if you want to deviate away from those then the person wanting that deviation should politely ask any other players involved if that's okay and gracefully accept the decision that's made.

At no point should the player abiding by the rules have to call their opponent out something like this. It's nothing to do with rules lawyering, just general politeness and treating people how you'd expect to be treated yourself.

It baffles me that some people think it's acceptable to play any other way.

All I can say is I hope you treat the 'rule' about straightening your maneuver tool prior to each ship activation as seriously.

Because it's just as important as this one.

Actually, it's probably more important. If you don't straighten the maneuver tool before activating, you could have a lot of problems with how you want to move your ships. If joint 2 is clicked two to the left from last movement, you physically can't yaw any further to the left on your current ship. If you want to yaw two clicks right, well you've just straightened out your course rather than turned right! In order to yaw two clicks right without straightening the tool first, your ship needs to allow 4 clicks of yaw. So yes, the rule to straighten the tool out first is most important.

As stated previously by several, expect to play by the rules as they are written. Any deviations from those rules must be agreed upon by both parties, either verbally or through unspoken (often unconscious) consensus. Even if your whole group puts the tokens on the cards because that just feels natural or prevents clutter (or any other reason you do it) recognize that it is a house rule and you may be required to follow the actual rules at some point. This is particularly important at tournaments or events outside your normal venue.

All I can say is I hope you treat the 'rule' about straightening your maneuver tool prior to each ship activation as seriously.Because it's just as important as this one.

Of course it is...

All I can say is I hope you treat the 'rule' about straightening your maneuver tool prior to each ship activation as seriously.Because it's just as important as this one.

Of course it is...

Of course.