I would suggest that if your opponent WANTS your tokens to be next to your ships (and several posts have pointed out perfectly good reasons why that might be the case) before HAVING to enforce that by pointing out that the rules state that's what you should be doing and you respond by making the game awkward and difficult, you might find yourself running out of opponents before long.

When the rules directly address what you can an etiquette issue, why should the rules not be used to address that etiquette issue?

I mean to reverse your example, what if my personal preference is that I want every token/dial by the ship's base? Why would by opponent be at all beholden to my personal preference that is clearly in opposition to the rules of the game?

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And here's the thing. When I place my tokens, I do it where I want. In that regard I can improve, I should be asking my opponent if they mind that I place them on the ship cards since I find it easier to play when all the information is in one place. But I only play locally, and no one here has ever put a token near their ship, we always put them on/near the ship cards.

What I'm imagining is a scenario where you, as the opponent, actually disregard the fact that it makes it easier for me (or simply that it's my preference) and insist on the letter of the rules when we are both aware that it's purely an etiquette matter that does not affect game play. That's an indirect form of stating that your preferences are more important than your opponents. And that's the sort of thing that can sour a game.

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At the end of the day, I don't WANT to put my tokens near my ships and it makes no difference to how the game plays out. If nothing else you need to look over at my ship card to see my defence tokens, upgrades, command dial or damage cards anyway. So if you're going to use the rules to enforce an etiquette issue like that when your opponent has a clearly stated preference the other way, then be prepared for a very awkward and difficult game.

Again, it's not simply a matter of etiquette, it makes a real difference, but the bottom line is even if you'll never see my side of the argument both players come to the game knowing the rules in advance. If one player wants to change those rules, even if he feels he's only changing a matter of etiquette, that change needs the agreement of both players. I'd have thought that was good etiquette.

I take issue with your suggestion that somebody would be "disregarding the fact it makes it easier for you". It's simply your preference vs theirs, they should feel no more guilty about asking to impose their preference as you should for asking to impose yours. The difference is they have the good fortune to have the rules on their side, and they shouldn't be made out to be villains for asking that you stick to the rules where there isn't agreement from both players to change them.

TL;DR version: what you're talking about is a house rule. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with playing by house rules, but it requires the agreement of both players, and if one player genuinely doesn't like your proposed new rule for what they consider to be valid gameplay reasons (as opposed to arsey rules lawyering for the sake of it) they shouldn't be made out to be the villain for declining to play by it.

When the rules directly address what you can an etiquette issue, why should the rules not be used to address that etiquette issue?

I mean to reverse your example, what if my personal preference is that I want every token/dial by the ship's base? Why would by opponent be at all beholden to my personal preference that is clearly in opposition to the rules of the game?

Put your stuff where you want. That's your preference and I respect that. That's the key issue here, respecting your opponents preferences, even in situations where you could use the rules to force your own preferences instead.

It's simply your preference vs theirs

And your chosen response to their preference is "mine is more important".

That's a BS attitude. Let people put their stuff where they want.

It's simply your preference vs theirs

And your chosen response to their preference is "mine is more important".That's a BS attitude. Let people put their stuff where they want.

My chosen response is "if you want to change the rules, get agreement from your fellow player first". If you disagree with that, I think it's you who has the BS attitude, if we're gonna start using terms like that.

Also:

Let people put their stuff where they want.

Isn't that effectively you saying your preference is more important?

So basically screw my opponents if they want my dials and defense tokens on the cards, even if that is exactly where the rules detail they be placed. Solely on the basis that it is my preference?

Wait why does my preference supercede both my opponents preference and the rules?

My chosen response is "if you want to change the rules, get agreement from your fellow player first". If you disagree with that, I think it's you who has the BS attitude, if we're gonna start using terms like that.

No I agree with that. But with the caveat that someone who refuses to allow it is probably a ****.

Also:

"Let people put their stuff where they want."

Isn't that effectively you saying your preference is more important?

My preferences for my stuff, your preferences for your stuff. It's the polite way to do things. Like other grown-ups, I don't actually need the game rules to spell out items that relate purely to etiquette for me. I do what I want with my tokens, you do what you want with yours. Why would you feel compelled to tell me what to do with my tokens? Because you can't see them all the way over there on my ship cards?

If you can't see my command tokens on my ship cards, then I don't see how you can possibly track my upgrades, damage cards, command dial or defence tokens. It's absurd.

Where I choose to keep my tokens effects my opponent as well as they also need to be able to assess the board. Just because it is your stuff doesn't mean it somehow only matters to you.

So basically screw my opponents if they want my dials and defense tokens on the cards, even if that is exactly where the rules detail they be placed. Solely on the basis that it is my preference?

Yes, basically. Because someone making a big deal out of it is a twerp that doesn't deserve your respect. Who cares where you put your tokens. Balance them on your head if you want for all I care. Sometimes I have them on a completely separate table, because it's easier to use a side table to keep all the clutter off the playing area.

My preferences for my stuff, your preferences for your stuff. It's the polite way to do things. Like other grown-ups, I don't actually need the game rules to spell out items that relate purely to etiquette for me. I do what I want with my tokens, you do what you want with yours. Why would you feel compelled to tell me what to do with my tokens? Because you can't see them all the way over there on my ship cards?

If you can't see my command tokens on my ship cards, then I don't see how you can possibly track my upgrades, damage cards, command dial or defence tokens. It's absurd.

No, changing the rules as you see fit without the agreement of the other player is not the polite thing to do. Your tokens don't only affect you, they do not exist solely for your benefit, so this "your rules for your tokens" idea doesn't hold water, and actually makes you very rude, if that's actually how you play regardless of your opponents wishes.

You keep saying it relates purely to etiquette, I don't know what you mean by that. It has a real gameplay effect, even if you don't see it, and it's not your right to tell your opponent whether his concern is valid or not.

So basically screw my opponents if they want my dials and defense tokens on the cards, even if that is exactly where the rules detail they be placed. Solely on the basis that it is my preference?

Yes, basically. Because someone making a big deal out of it is a twerp that doesn't deserve your respect. Who cares where you put your tokens. Balance them on your head if you want for all I care. Sometimes I have them on a completely separate table, because it's easier to use a side table to keep all the clutter off the playing area.

You want to change the rules at your whim, regardless of your opponents wishes, and your opponent is the twerp. Right.

That about sums his stance up it would seem.

Keep your stuff where the rules say to keep it, it isn't hard.

Sweet, swirling onion rings!

People are making mountains of molehills!

I personally place my command tokens on a special little shelf on my ship organization trays.

If my opponent has a problem with this, I'll default to "The Rules" and put them on the ship's token.

How is there ANY other approach one can take? The rules are clear, and any deviation from the rules needs to be cleared with your opponent. I completely understand both preferences. I keep my tokens where they are easiest for ME to remember, whereas my opponent may forget, glance at my ships, think there are no tokens, and make a mistake because of it. It's every bit his right to request I play according to the standard setup rules.

It has a real gameplay effect, even if you don't see it, and it's not your right to tell your opponent whether his concern is valid or not.

As do my defence tokens, command dial, upgrade cards and damage cards. You can see all of them just fine on my ship card, so you can see my command tokens just fine too. Don't try and tell me where to put my tokens, because it isn't going to end well for you. You think you have the right to tell me where to put my tokens because the rules support you, but social interaction is much more complicated than that. You have a lot of other things to consider apart from just 'the rules allow it'.

To me, this is literally the same as requiring you to straighten the maneuver tool prior to activating a ship. It's got zero effect on the game, but is in the rules regardless of that fact. If you want one, be prepared for me to insist on the other, because when you tell me that where I place my tokens is so important to you that you're going to use the rules to make me put them somewhere else, you're telling me what sort of game you want to play and that is not a fun, friendly game.

I can't believe you just used the phrase "use the rules to force your preference"! If I wanted to activate all squadrons at the start of each round would you be happy with that? It's just my preference verses yours, and according to you it's unreasonable to use the rules to decide!

Do you really need me to explain the difference to you?

This probably ranks up as the number 1 minutiae thread this week, and it's a weird one. I'm not even sure everyone's on the same page anymore, there's a lot of discombobulation.

Can we agree that, “Hey *%&!face, put those tokens next to the ship, or else. You have to, it's on page nine.” is not the right way in addressing the issue? And, “would you so kindly place the tokens near the base? I'm having a hard time seeing/remembering/analyzing them. Thank you.” is a rational way to get a positive response?

There are reasons for one way or the other, there will always be reasons, and they'll likely be different. I doubt anyone is going to change the other party's mind, but this aggressiveness is really not going to do anything but entrench people in their positions. Tone, mates, tone makes the conversation.

Pursuent to the original set of questions:

“Do you guys play with the command tokens in the play area? [yes or no are both preferences] Do you think that it is vital that they be placed there? [yes or no are still preferences] Would you insist an opponent do the same? [This is the big one. Yes or no matters as it affects others, so how do you go about it?]”

I'll freely admit that I will acceed to the other party's request because it's in the rules. However, the atmosphere and tone of the rest of the game will depend on how that request is made.

So... Lots of replies. Can I play rules lawyer for a second?

The rules reference states that "a ship consists of the base, model, card, and id "

To this I say the rules then allows for me to place it on either.

That is rules lawyering. Lol

Personally, I think anyone who insists on it is someone I wouldn't enjoy playing against anyway.

Vykes, I don't think your last point is at all incorrect. Just because the rules are on your side doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it, but the concept that someone's individual preferences supercede both thier opponents and the rules on the subject is just ass-backwards.

If your opponent is not cool with you not following the rules of the game, then you are the jerk if you insist on being allowed to do things your way irregardless. I might even go as far to say you are a jerk by putting the burden on your opponent to ask you to follow the rules rather then just doing so to begin with.

I neither agree nor disagree in principle, Scottie, but I absolutely agree that 'because the rules are on your side doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it'. This is not remotely high on my priority list (I didnt even know it was a 'thing'). That said, both parties can be jerks, it isn't mutually exclusive to 'the rules follower' and 'that other guy'. I can't know my opponent's priorities or their mind until they tell me. As I said, I was outright ignorant of the fact that anyone would have an issue with it in the first place. If they brought it up, then we can deal with it in a mature and reasonable fashion. But this is one of those 'you know what you did, slime' moments where I get to look around and shrug.

I'm going to be careful and exacting here: Scottie if you want to call 'me' (not the hypothetical me, but the personal me, as in Vykes) a jerk for putting the burden on my opponent to ask to follow the rules, then that's your call. I don't think you're a jerk, I don't dislike you, and it's not that I'm trying to intentionally stamp on others for having a different opinion. But I've handled worse in my life, and I get that not everyone is going to like me or agree with me, but it means I can simply leave the conversation and let everyone else fight it out.

After all, in the end, we're all gamers who are spending precious time in pursuit of an engaging and fun experience. The group who I play with are similar to me because they have the same background. This isn't an issue with them, and they're the ones I play with. Not you. That's the reality of the matter.

From my point of view, the conversation looks like this:

I don't want to do this thing, and it makes no difference to the gameplay.

WELL, I WANT YOU TO DO THAT THING, AND I WILL MAKE YOU.

Oh, well that kind of makes you an ******* then, doesn't it?

I can fully accept that the conversation looks exactly the opposite from the other side of the fence, but this is one of those areas where there's really just two heads butting and no room for compromise. The tokens HAVE to be put somewhere, and wherever they go, SOMEONE is going to be unhappy about it.

The fact that the rules state a preference means absolutely nothing to me in this instance.

We put them on top of our face-down command stacks. We tried putting them on ship bases before but they obscure important information especially when using small ships.

So... Lots of replies. Can I play rules lawyer for a second?

The rules reference states that "a ship consists of the base, model, card, and id "

To this I say the rules then allows for me to place it on either.

That is rules lawyering. Lol

So I set my card in the play area. Lol

I was mostly trying to be funny about rulesawyering. I believe this topic has devolved a little. I am not sure that some people who are discussing it one way or the other really feel as strongly as it is showing. So please everyone. Remember, as long as it's a request one way or the other. It's all good. And just relax everyone.

And pew pew pew.

It has a real gameplay effect, even if you don't see it, and it's not your right to tell your opponent whether his concern is valid or not.

As do my defence tokens, command dial, upgrade cards and damage cards. You can see all of them just fine on my ship card, so you can see my command tokens just fine too. Don't try and tell me where to put my tokens, because it isn't going to end well for you. You think you have the right to tell me where to put my tokens because the rules support you, but social interaction is much more complicated than that. You have a lot of other things to consider apart from just 'the rules allow it'.To me, this is literally the same as requiring you to straighten the maneuver tool prior to activating a ship. It's got zero effect on the game, but is in the rules regardless of that fact. If you want one, be prepared for me to insist on the other, because when you tell me that where I place my tokens is so important to you that you're going to use the rules to make me put them somewhere else, you're telling me what sort of game you want to play and that is not a fun, friendly game.

I can't believe you just used the phrase "use the rules to force your preference"! If I wanted to activate all squadrons at the start of each round would you be happy with that? It's just my preference verses yours, and according to you it's unreasonable to use the rules to decide!

Do you really need me to explain the difference to you?

Yes, actually, you do. As far as I can see the only difference is you think one rule change is absurd (I assume that's your problem with my hypothetical suggestion?) and the other isn't. Well you know what? It's not up to you to decide which opinions are valid and which aren't.