I must say I particularly resent the implication by some posters that that makes me some pernickety rules lawyer.

The fact that the rules include it is simply a... handy weapon should anybody argue

I think you should take a look at the way you're conducting yourself if you resent being called a rules lawyer.

Tokens on the cards, tokens on the bases, makes no difference. But you can bet if someone wants to make a big deal out of it, I'm about to become the biggest stickler for the rules you've ever seen. Forget to straighten your maneuver tool before activating a ship? That's a paddlin. Accidentally put a revealed command dial on the table instead of on the ship card? That's a paddlin. Forget to toggle a squadron activation marker? That's a paddlin. Pick up a squadron and put it back even a fraction of a millimeter in the wrong spot? You better believe that's a paddlin.

I must say I particularly resent the implication by some posters that that makes me some pernickety rules lawyer.

The fact that the rules include it is simply a... handy weapon should anybody argue

I think you should take a look at the way you're conducting yourself if you resent being called a rules lawyer.

Tokens on the cards, tokens on the bases, makes no difference. But you can bet if someone wants to make a big deal out of it, I'm about to become the biggest stickler for the rules you've ever seen. Forget to straighten your maneuver tool before activating a ship? That's a paddlin. Accidentally put a revealed command dial on the table instead of on the ship card? That's a paddlin. Forget to toggle a squadron activation marker? That's a paddlin. Pick up a squadron and put it back even a fraction of a millimeter in the wrong spot? You better believe that's a paddlin.

I just think of this and the Queen song fat bottomed girls.... Red bottomed girls you make the Armada world go wild.....

Oh, let me guess... That's a paddlin'...

GET ON YOUR BIKES AND RIDE!

how are people knocking tokens off their ship bases when moving them? my hands shake uncontrollably quite severely and i don't have the issue of them falling off the base when i move my ships? are you guys just tossing your ships about willy nilly?

I must say I particularly resent the implication by some posters that that makes me some pernickety rules lawyer.The fact that the rules include it is simply a... handy weapon should anybody argue

I think you should take a look at the way you're conducting yourself if you resent being called a rules lawyer.Tokens on the cards, tokens on the bases, makes no difference. But you can bet if someone wants to make a big deal out of it, I'm about to become the biggest stickler for the rules you've ever seen. Forget to straighten your maneuver tool before activating a ship? That's a paddlin. Accidentally put a revealed command dial on the table instead of on the ship card? That's a paddlin. Forget to toggle a squadron activation marker? That's a paddlin. Pick up a squadron and put it back even a fraction of a millimeter in the wrong spot? You better believe that's a paddlin.

Sorry, but I can't tell what point you're trying to make. I, and others, have already pointed out what difference base vs cards makes, and then you go on to list some rules that make no difference (straightening the movey stick) and some that make a huge difference (toggling your activation marker). What was your point?

It may sound silly, but I also dislike "clutter" on the field, more appropriately things that disrupt the "illusion" if you will. Tokens, piles of dice, rulers, I try to keep that all off table or at least to the outer edges or corners. As Stasy said, during a tournament, I won't say anything about it and I'll put them on the base if asked. But it's not my preference. They also fall off all the time when the ship is being moved. Sometimes they get left behind by accident and the ship they belong to is forgotten. Looking down to reference your tokens could improve your game anyway by reminding you which upgrades you have, etc. I don't mean to start any kind of argument, but this thread asked basically for a poll, so my vote is on the cards, not the base.

Oh, I agree, I hate clutter (it bugs me when people leave their dials and templates all over the board) and I agree with Stasy's point too, I just feel the instant, accurate gamestate impression trumps them. It's just a shame the damage (and, in X-Wing, the shield) state isn't reflected in the play area too, but that would involve too many tokens and the equation would therefore be different. As usual, I think FFG got it spot on. They are good, aren't they?

Anyway, you think this is bad, try Imperial Assault!

I played up in far north Newcastle today. Of my opponents one player put the tokens on the ship and I just asked him if I should do the same or if he would mind if I put them in an obvious position in from of my ship cards and such.

This game is great fun, I enjoy playing it. So, if I do something you don't like feel free to speak up and communicate this fact. Like many things in life if you are pleasant and ask nicely most people will comply.

I often tell more daughter, it's not what you say its how you say it. (I think that may well be Mr Chucknuckles point.) Perhaps you say "Dear, Kind Mr Kuck, my old feeble eye (I am blind in the other) is working very hard to see the tokens on your cards from across the board. Would you make an old man happy and ever so kindly place the tokens next to your ship please?" You can then place you hand over your good eye and pronounce you will be turning a blind eye on his infraction of the rules, and thank him ever so much for being a good sport. Or, you could say "Hey! put your counters next to your base like the rules tell you to!" Then get all rule 15, paragraph 3 subsection 2.5 on his hiney.

When in doubt go Dale Carnegy on him.

-snip-

Sorry, but I can't tell what point you're trying to make. I, and others, have already pointed out what difference base vs cards makes, and then you go on to list some rules that make no difference (straightening the movey stick) and some that make a huge difference (toggling your activation marker). What was your point?

What Amanal rightly said.

The “straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints...” P.11 thing is direct from the rulebook as well as is the 'all tokens must be on the play area'. I'm fairly certain the point he's trying to make is that it's one of those 'etiquette' rules that may seem arbitrary and non-mechanical. After all, the physical placement of the tokens makes no spatial difference in the result of the game itself. If command tokens are hard to see, then the defense tokens could very well be as well. This is all just an exercise in tact.

I'm a pretty friendly individual and a very conciliatory person under most circumstances (if a person accidentally skipped over a squadron, even in a tournament setting, I'd tell them). But I don't react particularly well to aloof demands. Call me petty, call me vindictive, call me passive aggressive, because I'm a petty, vindictive, passive-aggressive rat! Sure, I'll put those tokens on the table... I'll likely keep them all behind my ships too as that's still on the play space. Respect and courtesy goes both ways, even if one party is in the right.

Thankfully, this isn't something that happens often (and yet to happen in Armada or X-wing). Did I mention I'm generally pretty nice? Conciliatory? Handsome, charming, and the most bloody humble person you could ever have the good fortune to meet? ... no? Seriously, it doesn't happen much because the vast majority of gamers do possess enough tact to circumnavigate this o' so sticky wicket of a social conundrum. However, I have to account for outliers...

Aaaah outliers. Once upon a time I was playing a game and getting myself butchered in the grand ol' fashion. I was just learning some new rules, my opponent graciously offered to teach me, and proceeded to give me incomplete information that resulted in the unit's premature demise. I should have keyed in there. Come turn 6, he insisted on being allowed to finish his turn, despite the store closing and me offering an unconditional concession along with all the rights that went with it. He said no to my concession and proceeded to finish his turn, switching from running away to conserve points to all-out attack. Here's the kicker, it wasn't a tournament, it wasn't a league game, there was no prize for winning. He just wanted the satisfaction of blowing my stuff away when he would get that last top of the turn but I wouldn't. I now reserve pettiness for cases like that).

What Amanal rightly said.

The “straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints...” P.11 thing is direct from the rulebook as well as is the 'all tokens must be on the play area'. I'm fairly certain the point he's trying to make is that it's one of those 'etiquette' rules that may seem arbitrary and non-mechanical. After all, the physical placement of the tokens makes no spatial difference in the result of the game itself. If command tokens are hard to see, then the defense tokens could very well be as well. This is all just an exercise in tact.

I'm a pretty friendly individual and a very conciliatory person under most circumstances (if a person accidentally skipped over a squadron, even in a tournament setting, I'd tell them). But I don't react particularly well to aloof demands. Call me petty, call me vindictive, call me passive aggressive, because I'm a petty, vindictive, passive-aggressive rat! Sure, I'll put those tokens on the table... I'll likely keep them all behind my ships too as that's still on the play space. Respect and courtesy goes both ways, even if one party is in the right.

Thankfully, this isn't something that happens often (and yet to happen in Armada or X-wing). Did I mention I'm generally pretty nice? Conciliatory? Handsome, charming, and the most bloody humble person you could ever have the good fortune to meet? ... no? Seriously, it doesn't happen much because the vast majority of gamers do possess enough tact to circumnavigate this o' so sticky wicket of a social conundrum. However, I have to account for outliers...

Aaaah outliers. Once upon a time I was playing a game and getting myself butchered in the grand ol' fashion. I was just learning some new rules, my opponent graciously offered to teach me, and proceeded to give me incomplete information that resulted in the unit's premature demise. I should have keyed in there. Come turn 6, he insisted on being allowed to finish his turn, despite the store closing and me offering an unconditional concession along with all the rights that went with it. He said no to my concession and proceeded to finish his turn, switching from running away to conserve points to all-out attack. Here's the kicker, it wasn't a tournament, it wasn't a league game, there was no prize for winning. He just wanted the satisfaction of blowing my stuff away when he would get that last top of the turn but I wouldn't. I now reserve pettiness for cases like that).

Like I said many times, the fact it's from the rule book is a supplementary concern, not the primary issue, and the physical location of the tokens does have a material effect which has been described multiple times, I don't see how you can argue that it doesn't when it's been laid out clearly.

There seems to be a common logical fallacy developing:

Person a and person b have a disagreement about how a game should be played.

Person a agrees with the rules that came with the game.

Person b wishes to use their own rules.

Person a is, therefore, motivated by rules lawyering.

This is faulty logic, probably a correlation implies causation fallacy. Where the agreement with the rules does come in is in the resolution of the disagreement - surely it goes without saying that if you can't agree on changing the rules then you don't change the rules? If I need to argue that point I don't even know where to start.

I agree, by the way, that in real life this rarely if ever leaves the realms of amicable disagreement, though I have felt the implication from players in real life that I'm rules lawyering, as if my opinion is somehow less valid or honest than theirs just because it happens to agree with the rules.

I played up in far north Newcastle today. Of my opponents one player put the tokens on the ship and I just asked him if I should do the same or if he would mind if I put them in an obvious position in from of my ship cards and such.

This game is great fun, I enjoy playing it. So, if I do something you don't like feel free to speak up and communicate this fact. Like many things in life if you are pleasant and ask nicely most people will comply.

I often tell more daughter, it's not what you say its how you say it. (I think that may well be Mr Chucknuckles point.) Perhaps you say "Dear, Kind Mr Kuck, my old feeble eye (I am blind in the other) is working very hard to see the tokens on your cards from across the board. Would you make an old man happy and ever so kindly place the tokens next to your ship please?" You can then place you hand over your good eye and pronounce you will be turning a blind eye on his infraction of the rules, and thank him ever so much for being a good sport. Or, you could say "Hey! put your counters next to your base like the rules tell you to!" Then get all rule 15, paragraph 3 subsection 2.5 on his hiney.

When in doubt go Dale Carnegy on him.

I agree, but it works both ways. I would always try to ask nicely to put the tokens by the ships, and if asked why I'll explain about visibility and mental gamestate, hopefully the fact it's the rules won't even come up. The problem is the tone people sometimes take, as though you're only asking because it's the rules, even when that's not your intention, or what you've said.

From what I can tell, looking at both sides of this. It all comes down to the way it's asked and responded to. If the guy across from me says "f u it's the rules. Do it" yea. Not gonna. Or I'll trounce him with no command tokens.

If he says" it's hard for me to see, I like that its I the rules" I'll either put it on the base, which has been pointed out the vsd and soon to be isd will block much of it. Or try and find a better place to set my card/tokens for him.

On the flip side. If I ask an opponent which ship is which, and he has it marked. Then halfway through the game he says.."oh whoops, I used the wrong command. Forgot which one belongs to which" I'll go straight to pissed off. So... In the end. It really is how it's asked. How it's answered. The reasons why. And if it's just a way for a person to cheat. Or mess up.

Just my two cents.

Absolutely... I think tone is everything. And it takes communication not to just be a total prick (either side of the coin).

Yes, by the letter of the law some things should happen in this game. I kind of think of some of the rules in this game are like jaywalking laws. It's the law, but unless a town is foaming at the mouth to make some easy money enforcing it, it's rarely a problem.

So, my question for those of you who went to a Nationals with FFG judges.

Did they correct you on the placement of your tokens?

There are rules issues of far more gravity that FFG's judges won't intercede on unless asked, so I would read nothing into what FFG's judges do. They tend to remain hands off, to a fault.

So it's not something game changing.

It is if someone *ragequit tableflips* because of it. Lol

I have had someone rage quit on me because I checked the distance of their fighters when they deployed. . . I still find it odd that they quit over that.

Most rules are there for a reason. This command token rule feels more like a rule that was made so that almost everything is kept on the as area to make things easier to look at.

I mean if you physically measured for him as opposed to just asking him to double check I would fully expect him to not want to play that game.

Moreover if you feel you are going to physically have to double check your opponents measurements you shouldn't want to play that game.

Why is that bad? Am I not allowed to know the distance of the squadrons? He placed them while I was talking to someone else. I wanted to know how far they were. That's allowed.

Okay, don't want to chime into the current discussion, but about the initial question: I dislike (better say: hate) play area clutter, too, so I put all my tokens onto my commandBridge:

And to avoid hiding everything from your opponent, simply place them sideways next to the play area instead of in front of you. Works like a charm, at least for me.

If you think this is dumb, feel free to ignore me. Otherwise, go take a look and print and build your own:

http://www.sirwillibald.com/?page_id=462〈=en

Why is that bad? Am I not allowed to know the distance of the squadrons? He placed them while I was talking to someone else. I wanted to know how far they were. That's allowed.

Sir Willibald, Sir Willibald, whyfor do you taunt me so? Us rats have naught but grimy claws and fumbly paws, surely this you did know! -laughs a bit- I adore the command console but Gott im himmel that scares me. I'm terrible at paper craft and that a particularly intimidating one. I must practice, sensei.

Hmm, alright Mazz0, you are subjectively right. But I did make a choice to ignore it, and there are reasons including aesthetics. I know that I have a slight mental hitch in processing data when the command dials and command tokens are in two separate places, likely developed from the other tabletop games/RPG's. It's not a big deal for me but I'm consistently shocked at how seriously people take these smaller etiquette issues. I've been ignorant to how people prefer things like token placement, not because I don't care, but because it's never come up.

This all occurs before I consider my opponent, so I am not dismissing them. The question now becomes: how is one going to go about communicating their preference to an oblivious soul such as I? You've got it right, as does Aminal and many others, it's about the tone and the approach.

If they were to quote a dictate at me with no stated reason, then it feels like they're discounting the way that I learned to process information. If that is the case, I might infer that they haven't shown me courtesy or consideration as a fellow individual. If they request that I do something, it implies some degree of empathy and humility, and I'm going to make a distinct effort to accommodate that. That they are supported by the rules or not is immaterial to the way in which I respond.

I never said that if a person follows the rules and the other doesn't, that it makes the person enforcing the rules a rules lawyer. I said that if an individual enforces rules without consideration for the other person, and can't be bothered to broach the subject in a respectful manner, that makes them inconsiderate. So that example would be a straw man fallacy. What I'm saying is borderline illogical because it's pertains to idiosyncratic behaviours accumulated and reinforced over time: knowing full well that as it's part of the human experience formed from habit and adaptation. Challenging these presumptions without a modicum of tact is inviting conflict due to the nature of sudden unexpected change. If it's approached in an amicable manner, it is generally better received as being part of a continued adaptive process.

Why is that bad? Am I not allowed to know the distance of the squadrons? He placed them while I was talking to someone else. I wanted to know how far they were. That's allowed.

It's allowed, but the implication is you think they may be cheating. Few people take kindly to that.

Yet oddly enough there are more than enough players willing to stretch 'within' pretty far :-)

Why is that bad? Am I not allowed to know the distance of the squadrons? He placed them while I was talking to someone else. I wanted to know how far they were. That's allowed.

It's allowed, but the implication is you think they may be cheating. Few people take kindly to that.

Yet oddly enough there are more than enough players willing to stretch 'within' pretty far :-)

Like I said many times, the fact it's from the rule book is a supplementary concern, not the primary issue, and the physical location of the tokens does have a material effect which has been described multiple times, I don't see how you can argue that it doesn't when it's been laid out clearly.

That material effect goes both ways. I find it easier to process information about my ships capabilities when my tokens are in the same place as all the other information about my ship: on/near the ship card.

And here's the thing. When I place my tokens, I do it where I want. In that regard I can improve, I should be asking my opponent if they mind that I place them on the ship cards since I find it easier to play when all the information is in one place. But I only play locally, and no one here has ever put a token near their ship, we always put them on/near the ship cards.

What I'm imagining is a scenario where you, as the opponent, actually disregard the fact that it makes it easier for me (or simply that it's my preference) and insist on the letter of the rules when we are both aware that it's purely an etiquette matter that does not affect game play. That's an indirect form of stating that your preferences are more important than your opponents. And that's the sort of thing that can sour a game.

The reality of a situation is often different. Just the other night my opponent activated his ship, fired on my squadrons, THEN executed his squadron command and moved his (now unengaged) squadrons to attack my ship. I was pretty sure you have to resolve the squadron command first, and it turns out I was right, but I was happy to let it slide at the time and sort it out later. Yesterday I was playing X Wing and I put shield upgrades on my Raider. Whoops, can't do that. These are the sort of situations where, in the interwebs, everyone is a hero and would sort it out there and then, but in reality there's a lot more factors to social interactions than simply whether or not someone is breaking the rules. Whether you'd actually use the rules to enforce a request about where players put their tokens or not, I can't say. Whether you'd be a **** about it is hard to tell.

At the end of the day, I don't WANT to put my tokens near my ships and it makes no difference to how the game plays out. If nothing else you need to look over at my ship card to see my defence tokens, upgrades, command dial or damage cards anyway. So if you're going to use the rules to enforce an etiquette issue like that when your opponent has a clearly stated preference the other way, then be prepared for a very awkward and difficult game.