Some Stray Questions...

By venkelos, in Rogue Trader

Sorry to just do so, but I had some weird, stray questions bouncing around in my head, while I was working, last night, and decided to post them here. Here's hoping someone else might know. None of them are particularly important, but just little issues I pondered.

  1. Pirates. How do they work? More specifically Human pirates. Who do they sell to, and how do they get to them? I imagine Astropaths, and especially Navigators, can be very difficult to "keep on retainer", so how do pirates stay in contact with stuff, and know good opportunities to pinch trade ships, or even cover warp-ground? What Astropaths and Navigators help them? What alternatives do they have? I suppose Chaos might be a good answer, but I'd like to assume every pirate out there isn't just a closet Chaos Cultist.
  2. Maiden Worlds. Do we know anything special the Eldar did to create these? What makes their "terraforming" different than what Humans might use, or may have once, if/when they ever knew how? I can sort of envision an enterprising RT going to a MW, and getting run off by the Eldar, hearing them say "this world is ours, made by our own hands, and is not for the likes of you, Mon'keigh!", and then thinking it could be useful to duplicate the feat. Certainly, it wouldn't be easy, and might even be heretical, but what else would the AdMech be doing with all the xenotech, if not trying to find a human way to copy it, for the improvement of the Imperium? And while it might take decades to finish, even longer, maybe, seeing how long the Eldar can live, we've already seen the Imperium commit to building things for people who haven't even been born yet, so I could see them possibly accepting the wait involved, if some dead worlds could be made useful, again.
  3. Webway Guide. What might fill this job? Certainly not for humans, or such, but not every Eldar can remember all those paths, ways, and tunnels, so I imagine someone might stay there, and "guide" passers through the tunnels. Fighting might fall on the people, but maybe the guides could warn them of potential hazards, as the Webway is ever more decaying. Not sure if a stray Harlequin might do it (they, at least, do live most of their time in the Webway, regardless of the otherwise deleterious effects it can have), or some other "Path" among the Eldar; they have so many, and many we don't often hear referenced. I don't know if the Eldar can just send psychic messages through the wraithbone within, to a place they want to communicate with, or if they have a specific form of person who serves as a runner/messenger, to keep the myriad Eldar informed of events, at least as much as they are?
  4. A Far-flung Empire. This was going to be the biggy, and one I held onto till last, so that people might read the others, before they got to it, and said "what, is he stupid? Who cares?", but any Rogue Trader is, at least to some degree, a powerful financial force, with myriad contacts, interests, and stakes in enterprises all across the Expanse. How do they not fall apart? The only long-range communication method is astropaths, and the only long-range travel option is navigators, so how do they keep their various plans functioning? Take something as simple as hiring a man to be "your guy" in a field/location that you don't plan to remain in. How does he get paid? He might not see you often (he might not be "important" enough to ever see YOU again!), and there are no electronic money transfers. I won't even bother with "what will you pay him in?", but this system skirts currency, due to the potential varieties places might use, so how does he get paid? He has to do something for you, so how do you know he did? You want to pay a spaceport for repairs. How? Do you astro your dynasty, and have them send another warp-capable ship (that your dynasty just happens to have, but you don't use for other stuff), carrying the money? Repairs might take weeks, so waiting is an option, I suppose, but it seems not the way things would work. Even Gene Starwind can't pull "I'll pay you back when I make it big!" a handful of times. Do you have a cargo hold just filled with "gold", to pay them? Do you give them an IOU, and they get in touch with your people, who make the arrangements? Most Imperial facilities don't catch me as favoring the "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a new warp drive, today" plan of getting ship upgrades. I know it's mostly minutiae that the game doesn't bother with, and this isn't some corporate spreadsheet in space, like EVE Online, but I still don't get how the economy of a Rogue Trader, or even the Imperium, actually functions. In old days, there really were treasure ships that sailed across the oceans, carrying gold to various places, and Old West America did the same with strongboxes, on carriages/stage coaches, to fund businesses, and restock banks, but I don't know what/how the Imperium does, in that bent.

All right, that's it for my strange musings. Any you feel like tackling, thank you very much, and please have a good one.

  1. I think that many pirates are just system ships. There is an allusion to this in the Port Wander material, I think in Into the Storm . It mentions the pirates that inhabit the outermost orbits that prey on ships going to and from the warp points. When it comes to warp-capable pirates, there could any number of methods used, and no doubt all are used: slower-than-light like some free captains, short calculated jumps where you don't absolutely need navigators, elseways charts, captive navigators, renegade navigators, etc. ad nauseum.

Edited by Errant Knight

Back in the Age of Sail, pirate crews would often kidnap specialists like surgeons from ships they had captured, if they were unable to sign them on otherwise. It'd make sense that warp-capable pirates in 40k would do the same with Navigators, provided they did not already have one to begin with -- after all, getting a starship in 40k is a bit more complicated than it was in the 17th century, and many warp-capable pirate ships were probably Navy (or Rogue Trader, etc) vessels whose captains and/or crews have chosen to defect.

As for the "far flung empire" ... Errant Knight already explained it nicely, but generally you just have to look at real world history. The efficiency of communications and payment in the Roman Empire was not so different from what you'd see in 40k. And as EK hinted at, Columbus' exploits in America might also be worth checking out as the Spanish Conquistadores are generally a good real world equivalent to the Rogue Traders of 40k.

And keep in mind why banks came into existence in the first place. When sending ships across a dangerous sea, some of them will get lost. There's no stopping that. If all of them carried bullion and/or specie then the world supply of precious metal would be shrinking as much as mining could increase it, not to mention the risks of each voyage would be greater. Instead, you have a contact on the other end of the voyage who has their own supply. You issue them scrip that they can use on your side of the voyage, and they issue you scrip so you can use their supply on their side of the voyage. Win-win for both sides.

As for who pirates sell their cargos to, in addition to conventional 'organized crime' syndicates (the Kasballica would be the largest of these in the Calixis/Koronus vicinity), I suspect that there are a number of unscrupulous merchant guilds/trade houses that secretly buy illicit bulk cargo (at substantially less that standard wholesale) from pirates, in order to undercut their competitors.

My DH players are currently undercover on a pirate base called the Viper's Nest (an abandoned Ork Rok hidden just within the Fydae Great Cloud) where pirates unload their booty to sell. Sometimes there are multiple bidders driving up the sale price, and sometimes there is only one interested buyer present and the pirates have to accept a painfully low purchase price.

Edited by Adeptus-B

To add to what Errant Knight said about Far-Flung Empires, and having some knowledge of how finances work, let me explain how I see how maintaining an empire of your own works.

There's a huge difference between raising and maintaining a military force, and being a Conquistador. Military forces often don't pay for themselves, even if they allow their troops to loot and pillage (which is not a good idea in the long run). They are there to protect and protract the Imperium's interests. But being a Conquistator means you intend that your voyages pay off. How? By establishing economic operations at the places you conquer. Just the potential that a location promises to bring is enough to invest enormous amounts of money, particularly if there's a chance someone will be in on the early stages and hope to reap huge and long-term rewards.

So it makes some sense in investing in a Rogue Trader and his ship. The Profit Factor is a representation of both actual and potential Cash Flow of his entire enterprise. Worrying about hiring someone to scout out an area goes with the territory, and if he decides to graft you or just run off without doing his job for you, that could happen, but not all that likely. It's more likely he could be lost, or killed, and in any event that's part of the risk the Rogue Trader and his investors are taking, and all that is represented in the overall Profit Factor. The higher your PF, the better, of course, your overall operation is, and the more investors are willing to risk in your enterprise.

It helps to have a bigger vision of what is all going on here. A Rogue Trader is not just a captain of a ship, or an admiral of a fleet of ships, but a huge business enterprise that is out there expanding the Imperium in the most fundamental way that matters to the most people: Wealth. Military conquest is simply part of that. Having the actual military do that helps, but as I said is not as profitable as if a Rogue Trader does it because he's got goals that are not as deliberately destructive. I answered in another thread a question of what prevents the Players from orbitally bombarding a planet on the spot before they even meet with the local governor or something. What prevents them from doing that is the Bottom Line. In the games I and my friend run, if I or my players do that, I probably ain't getting any immediate boost to my PF from that world anytime soon. If the Endeavour is to re-establish contact with a lost Imperial World, let's say, and my players end up orbitally bombarding the whole planet to ruins, I'd fail the Endeavour (or at least, a smaller Endeavour as part of the Grand Endeavour) and offer a new one: Rebuild X World's Economic Infrastructure. That will take time, and time is money, as Benjamin Franklin said.

So, you shouldn't really have to worry if whether or not your Players have enough gold or credit in their holds or whatever to pass IOUs out for whatever they need, because that's all incorporated into the PF system. They made this so that you don't really have to worry about counting money. It's good, as a GM, to come up with something that explains what's going on in a negotiation or something, but over time you'll find that this isn't always necessary. If they succeed, they succeed, and if they fail, well, they fail to get what they want, and it'll take more time to make that happen.

EDIT: You also asked how do they keep their empires from falling apart. Three ways; Authority, Action, and Outsourcing.

Authority: Rogue Traders as you know, are not just ordinary ship captains; they are quasi-autonomous Imperial political entities with the authority equal to that of a Space Marine Chapter Master, an Inquisitor, the head of a Noble House, or a Planetary Governor starting out. That means they have the authority necessary to maintain their empires, and that authority counts for something big. That means he's got the backing of Adeptus Terra to do what he needs to do to build and maintain that empire, because that empire is part of how the Imperium expands and controls the territory in its domain. That's how a Rogue Trader could potentially buy military equipment and troops for his campaigns; something I suspect most ordinary captains can't readily do. They can call in assistance from local governors, Imperial Guard and Naval Forces, Adeptus Arbites, if necessary even the Adeptus Astartes (but, of course, they may also refuse, but he's got that kind of authority). This authority also puts them above a lot of laws, notably local laws, and they can become a law unto themselves in the territories they control.

Action: Naturally, the way a Rogue Trader maintains his empire is by patrolling it, going to place to place, showing the flag, gathering the Imperial Tithe, and establishing and flying trade routes, and protecting what's his. Starting out, with only the one ship, he may have to go back to the same worlds frequently and personally to keep things secure, but as he gathers more ships his reach will expand and he doesn't have to personally do all of that as he likes. And sometimes, examples have to be made. I had to execute a colonial leader of a colony I personally established for criminal incompetence (he got a bunch of colonists killed fending off some orks and didn't at all deploy the troops I lent him for that purpose, instead keeping them all hunkered around his pre-fab facility, and I have a temper about that kind of thing). Doing that improves morale among those the Rogue Trader appoints in certain tasks.

Outsourcing: Sometimes, even the most wealthy Rogue Traders with numerous ships at his command can't do everything. Sometimes, he needs to outsource. That's where Background Endeavours come into play, of course, but it's great to do starting out when you've only got the one ship and you need to improve your PF. So, outsource that. Hire a transport captain or a merchant fleet to fly out to your world for you. They'll be glad to do it (of course, that usually requires an Acquisition Test). Hire a survey ship to go into a star system or star cluster to evaluate it, rather than do it yourself. Time is money, and what you may not save in money you'll save in time, and you'll reap greater rewards on surveys that you can't afford to do yourself. Got a problem with some orks? Hire some mercenaries to clean them out. And don't be afraid to call in some favors, or even call in help from the Navy, Guard, or even the Inquisition! That's what they're there for. Sure, doing that will come with certain costs and problems, but that's an option a Rogue Trader has. I outsource flying trade routes between my worlds and Footfall and Port Wander, so that I can expand my empire and defend it with the ships I currently have.

Edited by Wayfinder

1: Pirates) They get navigators and astropaths the same way drug cartels get doctors in real life.

"Oh you lost your license? we don't care, here's a hefty salary no questions asked."

Not all the specialists are in good with the guilds, and will want to make "easy" money.

Or it could just be a ransom situation. "Be our Nav and your children grow up safe"

2. Maiden Worlds) Meh. that is beyond the scope of any games I've run. Seems like an RT would have to

figure out how much effort the Eldar would expend to kick him off of one, then bring twice those defenses :D

3: Webway) Same as navigators above. Find someone who can read eldar and pay them to help you out.

Or coerce them. Or maybe an elite pick of a talent for a psyker or navigator.

4: Far-Flung) do not discount the ability of astropaths to convey needs and messages, even trivial ones.

Also remember the Dutch East India Co, and Sir Walter Raleigh, and Pizarro. They had authority

to act for their kings in far away lands without communication. Also a warrant IMHO carries a similar weight

to an Inq. Rosette. When the Inq. pulls it out, people play along. When the RT shows his warrant, people extend credit.

4OK is much more about the man than the materials. If someone is brave, faithful, and a good citizens, things will go

his way, hordes will follow him, and other institutions will respect him. Of course a lot of that can be faked with brass balls beg enough.

Authority: Rogue Traders as you know, are not just ordinary ship captains; they are quasi-autonomous Imperial political entities with the authority equal to that of a Space Marine Chapter Master, an Inquisitor, the head of a Noble House, or a Planetary Governor starting out. [...] They can call in assistance from local governors, Imperial Guard and Naval Forces, Adeptus Arbites, if necessary even the Adeptus Astartes (but, of course, they may also refuse, but he's got that kind of authority). This authority also puts them above a lot of laws, notably local laws, and they can become a law unto themselves in the territories they control.

I think this might be reaching a bit -- unless I've misunderstood things, this is true for Rogue Traders outside Imperial borders as it is essentially the "law of the jungle" out there, and it is the RT's duty to represent the beacon of Imperial culture reaching out to new domains. Within the Imperium itself, however, he or she is "merely" a sort of nobility, akin to status to a Planetary Governor.

They cannot simply usurp command of Imperial forces in the Expanse because there are no Imperial forces there, owing to the Expanse not being Imperial space. Or rather, those forces who do reside there do so with express purpose and on the orders of someone who commands more authority "back home", such as an Admiral of the Fleet or a Lord Commander.

A Rogue Trader can certainly request assistance from these expeditionary forces, but this is where you'd venture into the realm of politics and favours rather than outright authority. If it were otherwise, it would just be an invitation for all those rival Rogue Traders out there to use Imperial resources to further their own goals, squandering the lives of troops in trade wars between them, like it sometimes happens with rival Inquisitors -- except that with Rogue Traders, their corporate interests would be much more difficult to hide.

Again, Spanish Conquistadores ... they were kings only in their own domains, but not back in Spain.

Authority: Rogue Traders as you know, are not just ordinary ship captains; they are quasi-autonomous Imperial political entities with the authority equal to that of a Space Marine Chapter Master, an Inquisitor, the head of a Noble House, or a Planetary Governor starting out. [...] They can call in assistance from local governors, Imperial Guard and Naval Forces, Adeptus Arbites, if necessary even the Adeptus Astartes (but, of course, they may also refuse, but he's got that kind of authority). This authority also puts them above a lot of laws, notably local laws, and they can become a law unto themselves in the territories they control.

I think this might be reaching a bit -- unless I've misunderstood things, this is true for Rogue Traders outside Imperial borders as it is essentially the "law of the jungle" out there, and it is the RT's duty to represent the beacon of Imperial culture reaching out to new domains. Within the Imperium itself, however, he or she is "merely" a sort of nobility, akin to status to a Planetary Governor.

They cannot simply usurp command of Imperial forces in the Expanse because there are no Imperial forces there, owing to the Expanse not being Imperial space. Or rather, those forces who do reside there do so with express purpose and on the orders of someone who commands more authority "back home", such as an Admiral of the Fleet or a Lord Commander.

A Rogue Trader can certainly request assistance from these expeditionary forces, but this is where you'd venture into the realm of politics and favours rather than outright authority. If it were otherwise, it would just be an invitation for all those rival Rogue Traders out there to use Imperial resources to further their own goals, squandering the lives of troops in trade wars between them, like it sometimes happens with rival Inquisitors -- except that with Rogue Traders, their corporate interests would be much more difficult to hide.

Again, Spanish Conquistadores ... they were kings only in their own domains, but not back in Spain.

I was speaking in generalities. A Rogue Trader can call in assistance from Imperial forces, but that doesn't mean they have to obey him. They have their own authorities too. An Imperial Naval Captain doesn't have to obey the Rogue Trader, in spite of his lower rank in status to him, because he's likely to have higher orders from his own commanders. The point is that the Rogue Trader can call in for assistance, just like a planetary governor could. Imagine a private citizen having the authority to call in help from the nation's military to protect his property.

Technically speaking, where the Rogue Trader establishes his own territory, that is Imperium space. Maybe not immediately outright; but over time, perhaps even over centuries, the Imperium is expected to take it over. The Rogue Trader and his dynasty may have a role in that, but in the end the territory the Rogue Trader carves out for himself will eventually be overruled by Holy Terra.

Ah, gotcha -- the bit about "authority equal to Inquisitors" sounded strange to me. :)

And yeah, I expect many Rogue Traders (or perhaps rather their scions) trying to drag out annexation by the Adeptus Terra for another generation or two just so they can make more of a profit and skip the tithe. Though I assume that annexation usually means that the RT at least becomes part of the planetary nobility, if not assuming the post of governor him- or herself.

Yeah, I always assumed someone in the Dynasty became the founder of the hereditary governor's position, while another carried on the tradition of exploring the next sector. And if 18 planets are colonized then the dynasty just becomes a powerhouse of related families in that sector. Of course, no one can fight like family can fight. What I'm not certain of is the inheritor of the Warrant. Did they get the short end of the stick or were they the "winner" of the inheritance?

You make it sound like a mafia drama. Very fitting, especially as I've just watched another episode of Narcos . ;)

As to your question, I'd say that comes down to simply a matter of personality and individual preference. I'm sure there are scions who would prefer a quiet life in luxury, lording over their own planet, whilst others might (perhaps naively) crave the adventure and freedom of being a Rogue Trader.

Both are vaunted positions; it's just that the easier one (being a feudal lord with a fixed domain and direct support of Imperial Adepta is probably a lot harder to feth up than being an interstellar conqueror with only a handful of ships) also holds them on a much shorter leash IF they eventually do feth up (luxury -> decadence -> inaction).

You make it sound like a mafia drama. Very fitting, especially as I've just watched another episode of Narcos . ;)

As to your question, I'd say that comes down to simply a matter of personality and individual preference. I'm sure there are scions who would prefer a quiet life in luxury, lording over their own planet, whilst others might (perhaps naively) crave the adventure and freedom of being a Rogue Trader.

Both are vaunted positions; it's just that the easier one (being a feudal lord with a fixed domain and direct support of Imperial Adepta is probably a lot harder to feth up than being an interstellar conqueror with only a handful of ships) also holds them on a much shorter leash IF they eventually do feth up (luxury -> decadence -> inaction).

Never underestimate the Seven Deadly Sins, especially Sloth. People often do gravitate to the quick and easy, especially if they don't have to work for it. A life of decadent luxury made manifest thanks to the actions of your ancestors is hard to pass up, and it's legitimate. Sure, some people, namely those in the family who aren't the direct inheritors, may chafe at that, maybe even take up the Warrant themselves to go carve up their own new empire.

You can easily mess up a feudal position as easily as you can do so with an elected one. True, if you're half-way competent, it's easier to maintain and you have more of a stake in your territory than if you were an elected leader, but ineptitude can lead to your rivals and enemies growing stronger while you grow weaker, and thus you can destabilize your own domain. And Emperors don't like it when you can't keep stability in your own domain. Replacement may be an option, but usually you end up replaced anyway by your enemies before the Emperor can do anything about it, and by then he probably has to send in troops to restore order and put someone in charge that's known to be loyal.