Polaria said:

I think FFG are listening to the fans...

And not the good ones but the 40k mad insane ones obsessed with playing Sgt Testosterone

Polaria said:

(over)powerful?

How so?

In Ascension level games, having "good stats on par with a temple assassin just won't be that much important when you're conducting Inquisitorial business on a planetarey, sub-sector and sector wide scale. I imagine such campaigns being more about political power and knowledge rather than how good you can shoot someone in the head several kilometres away.

Also, an Assassin shouldn't really be a "main actor" in any campaign. They are trained tools of murder, nothing more (especially in the case of temple assassins). Decision making wouldn't be their table of authority.

Varnias Tybalt said:

I do agree with you, but without going over (very) old ground, it depends on the campaign, doesn't it? This is the same arguement as to why playing a Space Marine is a bad idea i.e. lots of praying, lots of slaughter, no interaction with people at all. Not exactly roleplaying is it?

Varnias Tybalt said:

Thats really the problem. A temple assassins are pretty much limited by the fact that they get their mandate from High Lords of Terra. So, say that you have a group with Black Priest of Maccabeus turned into Crusader, a Vindicare Assassin, a Stormtrooper, a high level arbiter and a senior adept loremaster. So, while crusader, loremaster and arbiter conduct the investigations and the stormtrooper (with slight backup from the arbiter) handles day-to-day security issues the assassin just lays back in the ship/basecamp/hotel. Once the culprit is found the assassin starts to prepare his killshot while others lay back in ship/basecamp/hotel waiting for confirmation on the "can-I-kill-this-guy" application or go around arresting easier targets. When the "go" comes the assassin squeezes the trigger in his pre-planned positon, throws a few dice, maybe burns a fatepoint just to be sure and thats it for his part.

A great character for a book or a great NPC, but seriously bad PC unless you are running the assassin as solos game while other players aren't around.

On the other hand, if you give a temple assassin a carte blanche to kill any heretics he can gets in his sights it becomes for a working PC but breaks canon and suddenly elevates Officio Assassinorum into an hellishly powerfull organization which it wasn't supposed to be originally.

Bad Birch said:

Hey, im not the one looking forward to Deathwatch the roleplaying game, simply because I don't see much in the way of roleplaying opportunities due to the fact that space marines don't do much else than praying, training, follow their master's orders and killing things. So in my opinion, I don't like the idea of playing a Space Marine at all.

Personally im not much for trying to retcon the setting in order to let assassins and similar dedicated "servant/tool classes" (like Space Marines) have more roleplaying spotlight than they normally would have in the setting, and I make this very clear to any player that wish to play an assassin in my campaigns. While im not gonna force them to be a mindless servitor-like person, they will most likely not be the primary story focus because they have chosen to play someone that is dedicated to being a tool of murder and little else.

Their roleplaying elements might include disguising themselves and trying to infiltrate their way to a target by pretending to be someone else, but other than that I don't see why an assassin (even a Temple Assassin) would constitutte as a "key player" when we're talking about Inquisitorial business on such large scales. They aren't trained to have opinions and make important decisions, they are trained to find and kill whomever their master tells them to find and kill.

They will most likely have their moments (especially when it comes to killing things and being nasty combatants with uber-ninjaesque skills), but I just don't see how assassins (or Space Marines for that matter) being key-players in the Inquisition. They are simply to specialized and clear cut for their current roles to ever be fit do do anything else than what they already do.

Remember, however, Meh'Lindi, if you are talking about Assassins needing permission to kill from the High Lords of Terra.

Polaria said:

Considering the fact that Temple Assassins can be used in the table top strategy game, as long as you have an Inquisitor in the army, I'd say that Temple Assassins do have carte blanche rights to kill certain people in order to achieve their objective (after all, the assassin can go to town, picking off infantry and tanks on the battlefield as the player pleases without the high lords of terra coming and saying "no, you must kill the intended target AND ONLY the intended target."

Also the Officio Assassinorum has close ties with the Inquisition and there are plenty of Temple Assassins who works for individual Inquisitors rather than answering to the High Lords of Terra directly. If such assassins were to kill non-kosher targets, then it would be on the Inquisitor's responsibility anyway.

Still, Vindicare Assassins (and assassins in general) should be limited as PC's, like I told Bad Birch in a previous post. They are only trained to do one thing after all, and I would inform any player of this before he rolls up an assassin that his character will most likely be taking orders from others and have limited choices of what to do, and there's also a high chance that his or her character might have to take orders from other player characters when the campaign reach ascension level of play (because by then, a few characters might have been elevated to Interrogator or Inquisitor status and would have more authority over an assassin).

If the player want to play a more servant-inclined class, then im not gonna stop him or her from playing an assassin. If, however, that player wish to be a "mover and shaker" in high level campaigns later on, an assassin wouldn't be the best class to play. Assassins are ruled by the authority of someone else, they don't have authority on their own. (except perhaps for the Grandmaster of Assassins of the High Lords of Terra that is)

Like I said, I agree. In fact this just touches on some of the responsibilities and drawbacks of rank. It's not just Space Marines and Vindicare assassins that get put back in their box once the job is done, so to speak.

Bad Birch said:

Then again, from a mechanical standpoint I think it's a price you pay. On lower levels, assassins will often be combat monsters and glory hogs whenever the group of acolytes face off against a dangerous enemy. But on higher ranks, the assassin (and sometimes the Guardsman) will have to take a step back and let the other classes shine, because on those levels, missions will rarely be such simple affairs of go to town A, kill heretic B and whatever monstrosity heretic B conjures up.

Varnias Tybalt said:

In tabletop strategy game I would assume that the war-time rules of engagement are in effect for Imperial troops. This could very well mean that everyone in the war zone is enemy and troops (including the assassin) have considerable leeway on who to kill. However, outside warzones I would assume only arbiters, inquisitors and local leaders have the authority to hand out death sentences, so assassin would be enpowered target-by-target with exclusive orders not to kill anyone else. After all, Officio Assassinorum is supposed to be the rarest, most secret and possibly most powerful tool for killing high-ranking individuals and this is why I imagine that fully ranked temple assassins are supposed to get their target orders from High Lords and no-one else. Actually, I'm not so sure High Lords would ever trust an Inquisitor with carte-blanche assassin of his own anywhere else except war zone where full scale castigation is going on. It would be much too dangerous for balance of power in Imperium.

Then again, I'm pretty sure they will retcon all of this in Ascension and remake Officio into some sort of Imperial CIA-look-a-like with mandate to wage their own secret wars with Inquisition

Servant-like characters actually work well even in high-level, high-power movers-and-shakers kind of campaign. Nothing wrong with that. My best characters have been personal servants and/or trusted men on powerfull people (other PCs). Servant characters with very narrow specialty who pretty much always operate alone do not, however, make good PCs because you need 'em only for a few times each scenario and even then for very limited, solo-play.

Polaria said:

The High Lords of Terra don't "outrank" Inquisitors in terms of authority. Goge Vandire was a High Lord of Terra and he was brought down by the Inquisition, and it even states in the Inquisitions mandate that not even the High Lords of Terra are above Inquisitorial scrutiny.

So if an Inquisitor requisitions a Temple Assassin, then no High Lord will be in the position to refuse him or her an assassin (except maybe the Grandmaster of Assassins). Although that Inquisitor and the assassin might certainly be hounded by the Ordo Sicarus just to make sure that the Inquisitor doesn't abuse the assassin in any sort of way.

Also, if the Inquisitor has good relations with the Officio Assassinorum he or she could certainly pull some strings to requisition an assassin that way too.

Also I don't agree with you when you say that it would threaten the balance of power in the Imperium. Just because you have a temple assassin at your disposal it does not make you instantly more powerful and important than before. Assassins fail, frequently, and even when they do succeed there's no guarantee that the victim just won't be replaced by someone of equal delusions or even worse.

If they really were such uber-powerful problem solvers as the propaganda makes them out to be, then Abaddon the despoiler and his chosen would be dead a long time ago (they got an entire cadre of temple assassins sent after them), yet they are still alive and wreacking havoc like they always do.

Varnias Tybalt said:

There are fourteen High Lords, only one of which is the representative of Inquisition. There are literally thousands of Inquisitors. A single High Lord has a lot more personal power and, above else, a lot bigger responsibility that the assets of Imperium are used in most effective, economic and lawful way. A High Lord not only dared, but it would actually be his duty, to refuse an Inquisitor who requests to have himself a personal assassin for extended periods with no limitations to the deployment of forementioned assassin. If for no other reason, the High Lord would probably refuse the request simply because assassins are a limited resource, much needed around Imperium and actually intended for whole another kind of purpose than backing up some inquisitors pet-projects "just in case".

The point isn't really that assassins would be all-powerful, but they are limited resource, specialized on killing targets that cannot be brought down by other means. And Imperium has a lot of those targets to go around. It is a rare Inquisitor who would be allowed to have a fleet of fregates, a regiment of Imperial Guards, a company of space marines or a preceptory of Sisters of Battle reserved to the Inquisitors personal use for extensive periods. The same applies for assassins.

If Inquisitor, after a completed investigation or while leading a large scale war, requests an assassin to take down set targets High Lords would certainly grant him his wish, but having an assassin assigned to his personal retinue for extended periods? Nope, Inquisitors don't have regiments of Imperial Guard as their personal retinue either.

There are campaigns where it would be logical for Inquisitor to have an assassin, half a dozen fregates, a regiment of Imperial Guard and half-a-company of Space Marines backing him up. But they would be on a loan, only, not a resource he will have at his beck and call at all times.

Polaria said:

Just because they don't it doesn't mean that they couldn't.

Like your example with the fleet of Imperial Frigates. If an Inquisitor waltzed aboard the flagship and said:

-"Hello Admiral Whatsyourface, By the order of the Inquisition I am now requisitioning your entire fleet of starship vessels for my personal use."

The Admiral wouldn't be in any position to say:

-"No, we have more important things to attend to so you can't have them."

Doing so would be an act of treason in the eyes of the Inquisition, and that admiral would find himself executed pretty swiftly. The admiral would simply have to fall in line and hope that whatever shitstorm might be coming because of that Inquisitor's decision will hit the Inquisitor and not himself since he's just following orders after all.

Inquisitors have the authority to command armies and starfleets, they just choose not to do it for extended periods of time because they know it would f*ck up the normal operations of the Imperium too much if they did, and cause more problems for the Inquisition to be solved.

That said, if an Inquisitor were to requisition a Temple Assassin for extended periods of time, it's pretty much implied that the Inquisitor has good reason to do so in the first place...

Polaria said:

And the vast majority of arbitrators, adepts, tech-priests, clerics, scum etc. etc. etc. never even see any agent of the Inquisition, much less get a job working as an acolyte.

One of the base premises in pretty much all RPGs (except perhaps Paranoia) is that PC's are the oddities and exceptions to the norm.

Do the majority of temple assassins get seconded to the Inquisition? Of course not.

However, as previously cited above, the cadre of Jaq Draco provides clear canonical (prior any possible retcon, or even input by FFG by more than 15 years) example of just this sort of rare situation where a temple assassin is given over to serve at an inquisitor's command.

Common, no. Plausible within the setting and therefore within the realm of player characters? Absolutely.

Polaria said:

I'm going to have to bet against you on this one. Pretty sure Temple Assassins will not be watered down into anyone's CIA.

DocIII said:

As far as I'm aware, FFG don't have free reign to add or change any background except where it relates to their own little sandboxes (the Calixis Sector and the Koronus Expanse, so far).

Hmm I can see where DH & canon may collide.

How can hundreds of assassins thrive in semi-official capacity without requiring constant oversight of the High Lords of Terra?

If you think about it; that would be a perfect job. Assassin to (really remote sector). You probably sit on your arse and never get a call from the High Lords. In fact you've probably never been called in several hundred years...

What I suspect is that the High Lords can decree Empire wide assassinations and also there is no limit to who they can target. However local sector lords, Inquisitor Conclaves & Inquisitors can also get people assassinated but within tightly controlled areas (Heresy etc.). Also they get access to the top level operatives.

e.g.

• 
  
• A Rogue Trader causing Empire wide currency problems and fluctuations due to business practice. That would require a High Lord or Terra to authorise the kill.
  
• A local Noble who is cause serious upheaval at court (non heretical reasons) and is linked to several murders. Local Sector Lord to authorise.
  
• A two bit heretic for whom the best way of "taking care" of is by someone poisoning them. An Inquisitor can order the hit.
  

Back on thread. In Ascension I'd like to see how to use Assassins a bit more in the game. You could run an adventure just getting an Assassin in position to make the kill.

More tools and ideas for the other classes that do not get as much "love". Adepts, Arbitrators & Scum.

Baldrick said:

Because if they are semi-official assassins, they will be hounded by the Ordo Sicarus, a special Ordos in the Inquisition dedicated to overseeing and regulating the activities of assassins connected to the Officio Assassinoum.

It's all there in the fluff.

Varnias Tybalt said:

But according to DH a lot of them are in the Inquisition as acolytes. From the fluff I got that the Ordo Sicarus is tiny compared to the other Ords of the Inquisition. It is deals with the Officio Assassinoum overstepping it's mark not some rent a gun who sets himself up as the Stealthy Killer of Ambulon PLC.

Baldrick said:

Yes, Ordo Sicarius is smaller than the other Ordos, but it's apparently big enough to keep track of most assassins affiliated with the Officio Assassinorum, including certain deathcults as well (like the Moritat and similar cults).

Naturally the Ordo Sicarius wouldn't bother itself with certain criminal elements below their jurisdiction (i.e the "rent-a-gun" you mentioned), but if that rent-a-gun were to be inducted into the Inquisition and through them come into contact with the Officio Assassinorum (like becoming a Vindicare Assassin for example), then Ordo Sicarius would be interested in that particular assassins comings and goings (... and killings), even if it means interfering with that assassin's own Inquisitor's operations.

This might mean that an Inquisitor with a personal Temple Assassin might find his means to go under-cover to be extremely hampered due to the fact that he keeps a Temple Assassin on retainer, since the Sicarius would not like it if said Inquisitor "goes missing" along with his assassin.

But that doesn't mean it's all impossible nor that it contradicts the fluff.

I´m dubious about whole Officio Assaonrium PCs, mainly becouse of scrap of information I think from old Codex: Assasisn, which says that Templa Assasins are chosen from most violent societies of the Imperium at the young age, and those who survive the journey in cells with others similiary bloody minded psychos, have to undergo much more rigourious training that Astartes. (so (the) Imperial Asssasin is something like Blackships+Astartes training, turned up to eleven). I´m curious how would be fluffed changed/expaneded/created.

Well can't the Officio Assasinorium (what a mouthful! ) just occasional give the Inquisition a couple of members for them to use as alcolytes? I could also see it the the two have an agreement where the Inquisition occasional offers up acolytes to the Assasinorium for training in return. So it's a give and take kind of thing between the two.

The only thing I care about from Ascension is being able to play a Magos of the Mechanicus. I want my super secret xeno tech and STCs please!

Mazinkaiser said:

Of course they could, and that's the direction im guessing that FFG has taken.

Being in the Inquisition is much about acquiring connections and favors from differnet layers of the Imperial government. The Officio Assassinorum is one part of the Imperial government (just like the Administratum, the Munitorium, the Ministorum etc.). Some Inquisitors are going to have good connections with the OA, and might therefore be reaping benefits like having a permanent OA Operative under their wing. Other Inquisitor's wont and will most likely be promptly refused such boons.

The only thing that my mind keeps going back to over and over again as I read this is that the Imperium and the outlying sectors together are ENORMOUS. People talk about the various Ordos as if they were united and working in relative unity (at least that is what I'm gathering). But I always thought that the various facets of the Imperium are fraught with factionalism and scism. Even in and amongst themselves. Since the Imperium is a working government/theocracy/whatever and it governs hundreds of thousands of different planets and has trillions of people in it even a "small" Ordo is going to have hundreds of millions of members in it. Not to even mention the noble houses, governerships, trade houses, rogue trader cartels and numerous heretical cults and organizations in-between, the sheer scope of available need for assassins (no matter how many) would be staggering even at its lowest.

This is only taking the private sector into account. Factor in the military uses, 'diplomatic' uses and 'cleaning' uses for each and every Assassin guild/cult/organization, the chances of any assassin of renown being relegated to 'sitting on the shelf' would be a gross misuse of their overall skills, training and need. It would be my assumption that an assassin that reaches the upper echelons of status would have a lot more on her plate than "Kill the governor" or something that mundane (yes at these ranks that would be pretty mundane for an assassin). I would think larger in scope. Say a high ranking member of the Inquisition (or any Ordo, the Ecclesiarchy, the Ad-Mech) wants a rival out of the way... Now we're talking adventure. That would be a task of noted monument and difficulty. It would take thousands of man hours of research and investigation and skills above and beyond the simple garrote wire around the neck mentality. The assassin would have to be a virtuoso of command, strategy, infiltration, diplomacy, misdirection and numerous other skills. The assassin would need a team of trusted associates that wouldn't necissarily need to be assassins themselves. And since these assassins are considered "the best" nobody is going to coddle them by setting anything up. They get the joy of starting from scratch (Yippie!) and doing everything themselves (or what their subordinates or contacts can arrange).

Now, tasks don't need to be this monumental. But even in the Inquisition there is factionalism and disunity. These people want to advance and the easiest way to advance is to take the place of a superior that has died an unfortunate and completely explainable death... *wink wink* I believe if you look into any organization you will find this mentality. After all, this is for the good of humanity. Sometimes the weak elements need to be cut out... *wink wink again*

For an anolog just look at your government (where ever you are from) and you'll see this factionalism and maneuvering every day (maybe sans the assassination bit ). Now take the factionalism you see and realize that this is only for a few million people... Now think of the hyper militaristic and theocratical 41st century and multiply this by 500 million then add about a few hundred thousand different cultures. Voila! I don't think it would be a problem to find things for your assassin (and the team) to do... The only problem would be for your assassin to find time to do anything else.

As for the heart of the discussion I'm looking forward to seeing the further progression of each Career path to see how they will eventually lead to something bigger. Personally, my tech-priest is GOING to become a Magos Biologis and I'm curious as to see how that could happen toward the high end of the game. And since someone mentioned in a post somewhere that usually tech-priests don't go this direction it made me happy that my original plan was somewhat a path not usually traveled. I'm also interested in getting involved in more intrigue and political maneuvering (maybe even some assassination... teehee ) and getting away from the hack n slash (not that I don't enjoy a good row ). I also like the idea of shaking up the face of the Imperium as a mover and shaker... Not the one being moved and shook. I just hope my character is not excommunicated by the Ad-Mech .

Edit: Also... take into account that this opinion is shaped by someone who is a relative newb when it comes to the lore.

Ugh! Sorry for the tl;dr.

Well if you get to a super really high level in the Mechanicus, you'll be the one declaring who's a heretic and who's not.

The problem is living long enough to get to become a Magos.