I just hope and pray Inquisitor is not a dedicated career path but an additional rank that can be kicked in from about 7000xp, starting with Interrogator or something
I also suspect we'll see similar character gen rules to Rogue Trader to allow easy starting up at high rank.
Other than that dont want to see any further career paths other than alternate ranks and starting origins
I'd like to see Explicator's and Interregator's with mechanics and fluf to support thses without any support (beyond GM fiat) for Inquisitors or Inquisitor Lords.
Nigh7gaun7 said:
I specifically said you can work your way up to being a badass, but there are still many people above you. If you're higher up in the Inquisition, then there's already an alternate rank in the IH handbook for you and, oh hey, they're releasing Ascension so you can get higher up! Look at that! It's almost like FFG was ready for this! Dumbass. And even as it is, if you go by the 200 exp every four hours bit, that's 75 four-hour play sessions. And there'll still be plenty left for you to buy, so you can keep piling on the points for a good long time afterwards. Getting up to 30,000, I admit, is pushing it. Now, you should having been taking steps up the ladder of power this whole time, but FFG specifically said there are some things out of the reach of the game. They're releasing Ascension to extend the reach a bit further, but still. You can do whatever you want in your game, though. Buy Rogue Trader and convert everyone over, for all I care. You can theoretically start in Dark Heresy and work your way all the way up to the end of Deathwatch.
Yes, Dark Heresy can technically handle a game in which there are guardsmen only and you're playing as a squad on a war world or something. But that's not really what the game was made for and not what all the fluff etc. they're releasing revolves around. So the autonomy bit is up to the GM and players. It can be done, but I'm not hoping Ascension will have anything to support it.
So what you're saying is, that if we want to be able to reach a level of player autonomy, then we should be expected to just do it all ourselves? 
Now we come back to my previous point here: You said that you don't feel like inventing stats and such for your own "shiny toys", talents, skills and whatnot and that you expect FFG to release more and more books concerning these things and little else, in spite of the fact that they have released an imbalanced amount of books about these things already.
But when im asking for something that they certainly could do, that would extend the game further your response is: "Go do it yourself!" ?
Are we becoming a bit hypocritical here? 
Nigh7gaun7 said:
Interrogators obviously have to answer to someone, that person being their Inquisitor. Now, for an Inquisitor to *have* to answer to someone, well, someone has to come asking. I was nitpicking over a fluff technicality, and there are obviously, as you say, mechanisms by which the Inquisition regulates itself (such as declaring an individual Inquisitor Extremis Diabolus). But it is not a terribly structured institution. Inquisitors can leave conclaves, go rogue, come back, join another ordos, go to another sector and join that conclave too, join various other Inquisitorial organizations that transcend sector restrictions, and so on and so forth. There are minor wars within particular Ordos or conclaves all the time, as different factions vie for power.
There's nothing I see in fluff that says that individual conclaves answer to the High Lords of Terra, because Inquisitorial Authority specifically transcends everyone except the Emperor himself.
From Lexicanum:
"As a completely autonomous Imperial organization beyond the power of the Adeptus Terra, the Inquisition is immensely powerful. As the Inquisition's duties involve the scrutiny and policing of the other organizations of the Imperium, the Inquisition itself is answerable to no higher power except the Emperor. No one, except the the Emperor himself, is beyond the scrutiny of the Inquisition. This power is officially known as the Inquisitorial Remit or Inquisitorial Mandate...If required, Inquisitors may call on the service and/or resources of any Imperial servant or organization. Not even a High Lord of Terra may refuse the order of an Inquisitor without good reason. This power extends across the Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Mechanicus, however learned Inquisitors show discretion and request the assistance of the Space Marines and attempt not to anger the Adepts of Mars."
And, regarding the structure of the Inquisition
"The role of the Inquisition requires proactivity and efficiency unbound by the dogmatic bureaucracy common to most other Imperial departments. Accordingly, there is little in the way of hierarchy or departmentalization within the Inquisition. Authority within the Inquisition is governed by two factors - reputation and influence. Seniority is in itself no indicator of authority, however most Inquisitors will take heed of the wisdom an older and more experienced peer."
My point, dear sir, is not, in fact, moot. Inquisitors do whatever the **** they want unless someone else makes them do otherwise.
Oh yes it is moot, because throughout the history of the Inquisition there have always been other Inquisitors out to stop other individual Inquisitors from commiting crimes against the Imperium. That thing about "complete autonomy" is just anoher of GW's many inconsistencies in their settings. You don't have "complete autonomy" if you can only boss a certain people around by flashing a rosette, when there are still a lot of other people with rosettes as well who couldn't care less about how shiny your rosette is and the "autonomy" it provides you with, because if you abuse it in any way they will put a dent to your little powertrip quite quickly unless you can stay hidden from the prying eyes of other Inquisitors.
So obviously they can't do whatever the **** they want. And as for being "second to only the Emprah himself", that's another gross inconsistency in the fluff since the Emperor hasn't said anything to anyone other than the Custodes and the High Lords of Terra for a few thousand years. Chances are that the Emperor isn't even alive to make decisions for himself so all a supposed suspect High Lord of Terra would have to do is say "Well the Emperor said im innocent" and the Inquisitor would gently have to fall back in line, regardless of any evidence of suspicion he or she might have. It's not like a lone Inquisitor could ask for an audience with the Emperor to confirm it...
Yeah, to a large extent you don't need much to help out with that. Players are always eager to amass power and wealth.
This thread, I feel I should reiterate, is "What are you looking for in Ascension" and I said what I was looking for in Ascension. I have no problem with you wanting what you want out of the book. You're also mis-representing my position; I don't expect FFG to cater to my whims and they can release books full of fluff all they like, such as DotDG. I bought it and like it, but I don't use it all that much. IH, meanwhile, sees use every session, for one thing or another. And as I also said, I don't think the imbalance, if any, is as large as you're making it out to be.
My point being, I'm looking for some things, and people were saying "Oh you can do that yourself, what you want is stupid, we want more of that!" And to my mind, that's ludicrous because I can respond with "Well if I can make up galaxy spanning plots in the margins of my Econ notes, why can't you?"
Now, about those pesky Inquisitors...
I am saying that there isn't any real formal power structure consistently applies throughout the Inquisition. Sure, another Inquisitor may try and stop your Inquisitor, and I mentioned such things or pointed out relevant text from Lexicanum, but that doesn't mean his badge has a higher level of authority than your badge. It's complete autonomy from the rest of Imperial society, as long as nobody else gets too irritated and decides to kill you off. As I said, they do whatever they want *unless someone else makes them do otherwise*
And I don't think you read all the way through my post, because I specifically cited relevant text about the Inquisition having a higher level of authority than the High Lords.
Nigh7gaun7 said:
I must be the only person who doesn't want to, as a player or GM, have us wandering around making our own rules and becoming Inquisitors and raising our own armies and so on...
Yup, you're the only person who feels that way. 
Seriously though, it's an expansion. If you want to play agents of the Inquisition, you don't have to buy/use Ascension. However, for those of us who do (and always did) want play Inquisitors and the elite servants of the Imperium, I think it's going to be a nice thing have.
Anyone notice that Ascension has been removed from the Dark Heresy Products page and from the Upcoming products calendar? Not trying to be a provocateur or anything, but has it just slipped or is it being redefined? Both would be entirely reasonable. Or perhaps we are just focusing on Radical's Handbook for the near-term?
Honestly I'd like to see how they handle high level Tech Priests working with the Inquisition as a specific thing I want in the book. The other stuff mentioned, running large scale operations, planning missions, etc. are already what I am expecting. The other types of careers I can see easily becoming Inquisitors themselves or personal cadres to an Inquisitor Lord.
With how independent the Adeptus Mechanicus are and coveteous of it's members who are privy to some of it's greatest mysteries it'll be interesting to see how they tie in Magos and higher rank tech priests. I'd really like to see them branch out the Magos ranks by specialty to give each Magos nearly unparraled skill and knowledge in his chosen specialty.
Varnias Tybalt said:
Baldrick said:
This.
I've found it to be immensely difficult to construct campaigns revolving around the larger than life aspects of the Inquisition and sector politics. I mean, it's pretty hard to do campaigns about high grade politics in more familiar settings (like the real world), and if you compare our real world with the political ways of things in 40K the task at hand is way more daunting.
I'd like to see examples of how you create something bigger than the standard "plot-hooks" described so far, and examples of how you construct an advanced web of deceit involving lots of different factions and power groups (both heretical and puritans alike) spanning over several worlds in a sector rather than just be located on one planet.
Quite simply, examples of how to create scenarios fitting for Interrogator and Inquisitor grade characters. Because to me that seems really hard to do at the moment...
I am playing a campaign like this at the moment. it involves around a traitor in the Ordo Assassinorum and the Ordo Sicarius and wha appears to be an over arching 'Master' from the Ordo Xenos.
So far the factions encountered are
Ordo Hereticus-Investigating the traitors (PC's Inquisitor)
Loyal Ordo Sicarius -Also wish to find the traitor but annoyed that Ordo Hereticus are involved
Loyal Officio Assassinorum-want to find the traitor and worried aboutt he reputation of the OA
Nemisis Amber 5-A Traitor Ordo Sicarius Inquisitor a pawn in a wider plot or a mad man with his own agenda?
Red Wraith-A interrogator defected from Nemisis Amber 5 and apparently gone into 'business' for himself. Technically a Heretic but helping the PC's without the knowledge of their Inquisitor.
Ordo Xenos-Who are concened about possible ties to an exterminated xenos race, allied with Ordo Hereticus in this venture
Inquisitor Lord Malagrave-Lord Inquisitor for the Sector the campaign is set in (Hadros), he wants to keep the peace but also has his own secrets.
Departmentum Munitorium-A target for Nemisis Amber 5, but the Masters of the Munitorium in the Hadros Sector have also been advocating some radical possibly heretical philosephies.
And then there are about two or three characters per faction each with their own slightly different agenda.....
The campaign has been going along swimmingly.
The key to these kinds of adventures is for the GM to have a very clear idea of what each faction and each character wants and doesn't want to happen and whether they have the power to effect a change,
Also only include two or three factions in each session but have an idea of how each faction is reacting.
These type of grand adventures rely so much less on rules and dice rolling and so much more on roleplaying.
i am in agreeance with Visitor Q, large spanning campaigns can be run without the need for any major ruleset, if any at all. and quite frankly, i don't hold much hope that they can do any such proposed rules any real justice. a set of guidelines, forces that can used, etc might be all.
what might be interesting are mass combat rules simulating when an Inquisitor has commandeered an Imperial Guard company, Storm- troopers or Arbites arrayd against enemies of the Imperium.
new kit (weapons and equipment) is always nice. yes these can be created on our own but official sources are always nice to have, other than our flights of fancy. what i'd like to see at some point maybe not in Ascension but at some point is the range of varying 'common' items found in the Imperium. power systems, propulsion systems, cogitators, medicae facilities etc.
more creatures and adversaries. more most wanted.
an introduction to higher level careers to go with higher level play.
an expansion of sorcery and psyker powers.
vehicles. i'd like to see the inclusion of vehicle combat being added. i know there is an excellent unofficial source for this but i would like to see something official to play around with.
ultimately we can make rules and designs for anything we wish to, nothing is stopping any of us. it seems though we spend most of our time hoping to see things we are familiar with from 40K. i know i am in that crowd also. while its very commenedable FFG gives us new things to consider and marvel at..i would like more of a focus on what we have come to love and understand.
I skipped a lot of this thread because, frankly, this line of products has done a great job of providing great crunch and fluff side by side, and I don't see any reason why they'd start focusing on one over the other.
Guidelines for new gear, ranks, etc, as well as enemies is definately nice. GMs only have so much time to plan, and if you have to worry about balancing advancement schemes it takes a lot of time out of making the adventures fun. I particularily like new talents, traits, etc, that can be put together to make new enemies, and player stuff like gear is just as useful as a DM when it comes to this.
That's part of why I was annoyed by FFG's loosey-goosey rules for DH/RT conversion: they decided not to think things through, so I have to spend the time to work out how to address things like the fact that a rank 5 DH character starts with -5 to every stat compared to a RT character, but might well have +20 to a skill or have talents that wait rank 8 for an RT character, which is the equivalent of a DH character's rank 13. A quick list of skills, talents and gear (and perhaps a special skill) to add to a character starting a DH career at their own rank 1 in RT would have cleared this up without me having to do the work. Psykers are even more of a headache.
Also, really, well done game mechanics are fluffy in a game like this. New talents for handling a network of contacts, much like the Whisper talent in RT, would be really neat. Also, "generator" style crunch for pricing elite advances and creating new ranks would help GMs make their own crunch with less worry about balance issues and so forth.
I'd like to see RT style psyker rules for Sanctioned Psyker powers, but I doubt we'll see it in Ascension 
Graver said:
yet in the Murder Room in CA, Inquisitor Golgol was said to have been raised to his station by just one Inquisitor (and not a Lord IIRC).
Visitor Q said:
The key to these kinds of adventures is for the GM to have a very clear idea of what each faction and each character wants and doesn't want to happen and whether they have the power to effect a change,
Also only include two or three factions in each session but have an idea of how each faction is reacting.
These type of grand adventures rely so much less on rules and dice rolling and so much more on roleplaying.
I know the basics of spiderweb-style adventure making. It's just that I find it difficult to apply to 40K on a sectorwide scale, mainly because everything is so freaking BIG and there are always millions of people involved to a certain extent.
Also, im not really asking for rules and dicerolling but more something along the lines of inspirations and theory in how to pull off the spider-web style in Dark Heresy.
Just because you write and release a supplement for an RPG it doesn't necessarily mean you have to cram it to the brim with new rules. It is just as okay and useful to write entire chapters about GM theory and how certain theories apply to the given setting.
macd21 said:
I'd like to see RT style psyker rules for Sanctioned Psyker powers, but I doubt we'll see it in Ascension
Why don't you just convert it?
The black box explaining rules conversions for psychic powers in RT works both ways you know.
Varnias what can i say man i love you for the simple fact you can draw things out forever this is meant to give no offensce or anything at all in fact its a compliment, i respect a person that can argue properly without cursing *hint hint*
as for the main point of the post, im looking for more ranks, a bit of fluff, i want bloody necrons for emperors sake! and all the other main 40k armies, you can keep your shiny toys such as weapons and the sort but i want a lot of rules on technology i feel its been a bit lacking. like what exactly an STC looks like and does.
as for what the post has turned into. im sorry Varnias but the inquisition only answers to the emperor and arguing that he isnt alive is for a different post. yes inquisitor can get in the way of one another but thats like politicians getting in the way of one another because of their own beliefs they still answer to the president dont they and if for some miracle the Emperor were to wake up and tell the inquisition "hey you cant do this stuff anymore" they would have to listen to it theres no way around it...period...
as for crunch v. fluff their both integral to one another so just agree to disagree already
Varnias Tybalt said:
macd21 said:
I'd like to see RT style psyker rules for Sanctioned Psyker powers, but I doubt we'll see it in Ascension
Why don't you just convert it?
The black box explaining rules conversions for psychic powers in RT works both ways you know.
Not really. A simple conversion isn't possible. The powers from DH don't work on the basis of the Power Rating chosen to manifest them. They are also balanced differently - the ones from DH by higher manifest targets for more powerful powers, the ones from RT by higher xp costs and prerequisites.
ThenDoctor said:
Varnias what can i say man i love you for the simple fact you can draw things out forever this is meant to give no offensce or anything at all in fact its a compliment, i respect a person that can argue properly without cursing *hint hint*
What? I forgot to curse? Schnap! I feel so dirty. It's almost like I've become civilized. 
Also, I'd like to see it as discussing rather than arguing. You know what they say about arguing on the internet, don't you?
In fact, I posted a pretty funny pic over at the WFRP 3rd-boards regarding this, but it was deleted by a mod for being "indecent" or something like that. Squeamish mod... *grmblgrmbl*
ThenDoctor said:
as for what the post has turned into. im sorry Varnias but the inquisition only answers to the emperor and arguing that he isnt alive is for a different post. yes inquisitor can get in the way of one another but thats like politicians getting in the way of one another because of their own beliefs they still answer to the president dont they and if for some miracle the Emperor were to wake up and tell the inquisition "hey you cant do this stuff anymore" they would have to listen to it theres no way around it...period...
Well, I didn't really meant that the Emperor was "dead" in the litteral sense. Only that the fluff seems to suggest that he's "too busy" manifesting his will in the warp to actually be able to communicate with his loyal subjects. The High Lords of Terra claims that they are acting as the Emperors voice. And it also seems like they, along with the Custodes are the only people actually allowed to visit the Emperor in the throne room itself. When was the last time an Inquisitor asked the Emperor for an audience? Also, wouldn't it be kind of illogical to actually let an Inquisitor inside?
I mean, pretty much all Inquisitors are drafted from normal Imperial subjects. And even if they are privy to very proscribed information, all Inquisitors are still expected to be faithful to the Emperor and his undying form. If they were ever to set foot inside the throneroom, their faith would be destroyed. It doesn't matter if the throneroom is just an empty room or if the stasis chambers of the golden throne really do hold the Emperors carcass inside. As soon as a faithful lays their eyes on the inside, they would KNOW what's going on, rather than having FAITH in whats going on.
And we all know how the Imperium (even most Inquisitors) value Faith way above Knowledge.
But the Custodes and the High Lords seem to be exempt from such sentiments. So in that regard a High Lord seems to have access to an ultimate defense against the accusations of an individual inquisitor:
So im guilty of heresy am I? Let me just step into the throneroom for a minut and ask the big guy himself... Nope, "not guilty". And if you disagree you are contradicting the Emperor himself. And that would make YOU, little Inquisitor, guilty of heresy and radicalism. Sucks to be you! 
So no, I don't really buy the idea that an individual Inquisitor could just overthrow a High Lord that easily. Even if he's entitled to do it "on paper", but we all know how little reality (or in this case: the fictional reality) live up to what's written "on paper".
Remember what difficulty the Imperium had when trying to overthrow Goge Vandire during the Age of Apostasy.
As for your analogy of politicians stepping on eachothers toes, you'll have to mention which government you are refering to if you want me to challenge the example. In some governments individual politicians have more individual powers, in others they are more reliant on the majority in the congress/parliament/etc.
Varnias Tybalt said:
I mean, pretty much all Inquisitors are drafted from normal Imperial subjects. And even if they are privy to very proscribed information, all Inquisitors are still expected to be faithful to the Emperor and his undying form. If they were ever to set foot inside the throneroom, their faith would be destroyed. It doesn't matter if the throneroom is just an empty room or if the stasis chambers of the golden throne really do hold the Emperors carcass inside. As soon as a faithful lays their eyes on the inside, they would KNOW what's going on, rather than having FAITH in whats going on.
We actually know for a fact that some Inquisitors have had a personal audience with the Emperor and looked upon the Golden Throne. Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex, Proctor-General of the Conclave of Scarus (c827.M41), Master of the Thirty-Fourth Chamber Practical, The Victor of Hellanus, Saviour of Vraks and Auditorii-Imperator. As described in his entry in Imperial Armour Seven: The Siege of Vraks Part Three (page 124):
"Hector Rex bears the honoured title 'Auditorii-Imperator' which means that he has been granted a personal audience with the Emperor himself. Rex has entered the Emperor's throne room and knelt before the Golden Throne on Terra to commune with the Emperor himself - one of very few living men who has known such a priviledge. Many High Lords of Terra never gain such an honour."
The Emperor's sacrifice is known across the Imperium - it is, without a doubt, the single strongest unifying notion the Ecclesiarchy possesses. The notion that the Emperor once walked among men and gave that up in the defence of mankind is the single largest guilt trip in the history of the human race. That the Emperor sacrificed himself and now sits upon the Golden Throne, sustained only by the sacrifices of others and his own supreme will, is - as far as I am aware - common knowledge in the Imperium, and a common element of the sermons of the Ecclesiarchy. As was said in the old Codex Imperialis (page 38):
"The redemption of humanity by the self-sacrifice of the Emperor became the central theme of the Imperial Cult."
Varnias Tybalt said:
It should be noted that, at the time, the Inquisition was focussed almost exclusively on external threats (the Ordos Malleus and Xenos having been founded fairly early in Imperial history) - the Ordo that deals specifically with matters of internal strife, heresy and sedition (that is, quite obviously, the Ordo Hereticus) did not come to exist until after Vandire's reign had been forcibly ended, during Sebastian Thor's reformation of the Imperium. That, combined with the massive internal strife within the Officio Assassinorum (which at the time was not subject to the same strict regulation it 'enjoys' in the 41st Millennium), and the general disarray with which the Imperium found itself (Astartes chapters being variously for, against or indifferent to Vandire's reign; the general difficulty in acting against the legal head of the church or his followers, and a lack of self-policing within the Ecclesiarchy itself - something which also came about in the wake of the Reign of Blood) all are significant contributing factors to the difficulty of overthrowing Vandire.
N0-1_H3r3 said:
It should be noted that, at the time, the Inquisition was focussed almost exclusively on external threats (the Ordos Malleus and Xenos having been founded fairly early in Imperial history) - the Ordo that deals specifically with matters of internal strife, heresy and sedition (that is, quite obviously, the Ordo Hereticus) did not come to exist until after Vandire's reign had been forcibly ended, during Sebastian Thor's reformation of the Imperium. That, combined with the massive internal strife within the Officio Assassinorum (which at the time was not subject to the same strict regulation it 'enjoys' in the 41st Millennium), and the general disarray with which the Imperium found itself (Astartes chapters being variously for, against or indifferent to Vandire's reign; the general difficulty in acting against the legal head of the church or his followers, and a lack of self-policing within the Ecclesiarchy itself - something which also came about in the wake of the Reign of Blood) all are significant contributing factors to the difficulty of overthrowing Vandire.
That's actually pretty irrelevant. The question is: IF a single Inquisitor would have declared Goge Vandire a heretic, would that have made the process easier? I doubt it. It took the cooperation of SEVERAL Inquisitors, Astartes Chapters, multitudes of regiments of the Imperial Guard and the Brides of the Emperor (who came to be the Sisters of Battle afterwards) in order to overhtrow just ONE High Lord.
As for the state of the Imperium at the time, the Imperium is ALWAYS wracked by a state of near anarchy and political intrigue. Otherwise the Inquisition wouldn't have anything to do with their time. So blaming it on "the state of things" during the Age of Apostasy doesn't strike me as particularly relevant to the argument.
The fact remains, while Inquisitors might be "fully autonomous and answering only to the emperor himself" ON PAPER, the reality is a completely different matter...
Varnias Tybalt said:
As for the state of the Imperium at the time, the Imperium is ALWAYS wracked by a state of near anarchy and political intrigue. Otherwise the Inquisition wouldn't have anything to do with their time. So blaming it on "the state of things" during the Age of Apostasy doesn't strike me as particularly relevant to the argument.
The state of the Imperium does change, though. Otherwise the Amalathian faction of the Inquisition would never have come about - the Conclave of Mount Amalath, in the wake of the Macharian Crusade, celebrated new growth and stability for the Imperium. As demonstrated by the timeline in the current Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, while there is always some degree of turmoil in the Imperium, the nature, direction and intensity of that turmoil changes frequently enough for 'local conditions' to be valid considerations.
Beyond that, as I stated before, the mandate of the Inquisition didn't include internal threats until after Vandire was killed - that was the point of founding the Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Sicarius. When you're concerned solely with the menaces of daemons and aliens, matters of Terran politics tend not to show up on your auspex. Had a sufficiently well-connected Inquisitor stepped up and declared Vandire a threat to mankind, then yes, I believe the situation would have been resolved more quickly. Not necessarily because of the Inquisitor's declaration, but because of the ability to sweep through the trivial matters of the law and effectively allow for a far more unified effort on the part of the other forces present.
Of course, I imagine that those few Inquisitors likely to speak out against Vandire would have been swiftly eliminated through the use of Officio Assassins, against whom job description provides no protection.
Varnias Tybalt said:
I don't dispute that, in theory. In practice, however, it's a matter of degrees. Their authority is limitless. The only thing that can be used to adequately deny an Inquisitor's demands is force (or, rather, the threat of force). Convincing an Inquisitor that crossing you will result in his death is the only way to prevent him from doing exactly as he wants, which is the main driving force behind Inquisitorial politics (the accumulation of connections, allies and resources such that the force you can bring to bear is enough to dissuade those who would defy your Emperor-given right to hunt His enemies where-ever you find them).
A young, newly-ordained Inquisitor may only have his seal and a single cell of Acolytes to his name, and may only have an ally in his former master... but a centuries-old Inquisitor Lord will (because he wouldn't be an Inquisitor Lord if he didn't) have a vast network of subordinates, allies (within the Inquisition and without), and resources that means that he can essentially do as he pleases with the full backing of dozens of Inquisitors, the support of Cardinals, Imperial Commanders, Arch-Magi, Lord-Generals and Lord-Admirals (and their attendant forces), Astartes commanders, Arbites Judges, Rogue Traders and more besides...
In either case, efficiency often requires a deft hand rather than brute force - flashing the seal may get the job done, but tapping into a network of contacts and allies for favours is a far subtler approach - heretics tend to run when you thunder towards them like an enraged bull grox, but if you can catch them in the act and then slit their throats while they sleep, you're more likely to guarantee success. In such cases, it's not a matter of power, it's a matter of guile and cunning. Inquisitors are not selected for their looks, but for their capacity to do the job required of them; whether or not they have the cunning and wisdom to wield the awesome power their office provides is more important than the power itself.
N0-1_H3r3 said:
I don't dispute that, in theory. In practice, however, it's a matter of degrees. Their authority is limitless. The only thing that can be used to adequately deny an Inquisitor's demands is force (or, rather, the threat of force). Convincing an Inquisitor that crossing you will result in his death is the only way to prevent him from doing exactly as he wants, which is the main driving force behind Inquisitorial politics (the accumulation of connections, allies and resources such that the force you can bring to bear is enough to dissuade those who would defy your Emperor-given right to hunt His enemies where-ever you find them).
A young, newly-ordained Inquisitor may only have his seal and a single cell of Acolytes to his name, and may only have an ally in his former master... but a centuries-old Inquisitor Lord will (because he wouldn't be an Inquisitor Lord if he didn't) have a vast network of subordinates, allies (within the Inquisition and without), and resources that means that he can essentially do as he pleases with the full backing of dozens of Inquisitors, the support of Cardinals, Imperial Commanders, Arch-Magi, Lord-Generals and Lord-Admirals (and their attendant forces), Astartes commanders, Arbites Judges, Rogue Traders and more besides...
In either case, efficiency often requires a deft hand rather than brute force - flashing the seal may get the job done, but tapping into a network of contacts and allies for favours is a far subtler approach - heretics tend to run when you thunder towards them like an enraged bull grox, but if you can catch them in the act and then slit their throats while they sleep, you're more likely to guarantee success. In such cases, it's not a matter of power, it's a matter of guile and cunning. Inquisitors are not selected for their looks, but for their capacity to do the job required of them; whether or not they have the cunning and wisdom to wield the awesome power their office provides is more important than the power itself.
Yes, their authotrity is limitless, and the only thing that can deny an Inquisitors demands is force or the threat of force. The thing is, having access to force in the Imperium is not exclusive to Inquisitors. The more important you are, the more force you tend to accumulate. And if it is evident that the force of a High Lord is considerably more strong than an individual Inquisitor (and more often than not, a High Lord has a lot more power than individual Inquisitors), the High Lord would have no reason to accept said Inquisitors behaviour.
To put it simply, the distrubution of force in the Imperium of Man seem to create a certain form of order that is pretty much independet from official rulings and laws. But this is something that certain fans don't seem to accept.
This is the Inquisitor some fans seem to see: -"Im an Inquisitor, and when I flash my rosette I can do whatever I want, because the Emperor says so!"
But once you've read through considerable amounts of fluff and WH40K novels, the picture tend to look more like this: -"Im an Inquisitor. My rosette grants me THE AUTHORITY to do whatever I want. But in reality I can't really do whatever I want if I don't have the cunning and wisdom to pull it off."
Having the official authority to do something is pretty irrelevant if you don't have the access to the required power to pull it off. Sure you might have the authority to flick a lightswitch, but if that lightswitch isn't hooked up to the powergrid with a properly functioning powerplant somewhere, you will not be able to make the lightbulbs glow.
That's sort of the argument I was trying to make, and show that Inquisitors aren't completely autonomous. They still rely way too much on the backing of other people to be considered realistically autonomous...
Varnias Tybalt said:
Visitor Q said:
The key to these kinds of adventures is for the GM to have a very clear idea of what each faction and each character wants and doesn't want to happen and whether they have the power to effect a change,
Also only include two or three factions in each session but have an idea of how each faction is reacting.
These type of grand adventures rely so much less on rules and dice rolling and so much more on roleplaying.
I know the basics of spiderweb-style adventure making. It's just that I find it difficult to apply to 40K on a sectorwide scale, mainly because everything is so freaking BIG and there are always millions of people involved to a certain extent.
Also, im not really asking for rules and dicerolling but more something along the lines of inspirations and theory in how to pull off the spider-web style in Dark Heresy.
Just because you write and release a supplement for an RPG it doesn't necessarily mean you have to cram it to the brim with new rules. It is just as okay and useful to write entire chapters about GM theory and how certain theories apply to the given setting.
BIG but SLOW. Which is useful because different factions won't necessarily progress very far while the PC's are pottering around.
Also 99% of the millions involved will either be grunts or counteract whatever the other guy is doing. meaning as a GM you only need to concentrate o nthe movers and shakers.
From a technical point of view write up a GM reminder sheet every session and always be ready with plenty of handouts that can nudge the PC's memory..
Varnias Tybalt said:
Yes, their authotrity is limitless, and the only thing that can deny an Inquisitors demands is force or the threat of force. The thing is, having access to force in the Imperium is not exclusive to Inquisitors. The more important you are, the more force you tend to accumulate. And if it is evident that the force of a High Lord is considerably more strong than an individual Inquisitor (and more often than not, a High Lord has a lot more power than individual Inquisitors), the High Lord would have no reason to accept said Inquisitors behaviour.
To put it simply, the distrubution of force in the Imperium of Man seem to create a certain form of order that is pretty much independet from official rulings and laws. But this is something that certain fans don't seem to accept.
This is the Inquisitor some fans seem to see: -"Im an Inquisitor, and when I flash my rosette I can do whatever I want, because the Emperor says so!"
But once you've read through considerable amounts of fluff and WH40K novels, the picture tend to look more like this: -"Im an Inquisitor. My rosette grants me THE AUTHORITY to do whatever I want. But in reality I can't really do whatever I want if I don't have the cunning and wisdom to pull it off."
Having the official authority to do something is pretty irrelevant if you don't have the access to the required power to pull it off. Sure you might have the authority to flick a lightswitch, but if that lightswitch isn't hooked up to the powergrid with a properly functioning powerplant somewhere, you will not be able to make the lightbulbs glow.
That's sort of the argument I was trying to make, and show that Inquisitors aren't completely autonomous. They still rely way too much on the backing of other people to be considered realistically autonomous...
While true, even a newly ordained Inquisitor with little to no contacts, allies or resources is terrifyingly powerful, simply because he can order you to do something and to refuse is essentially punishable by death. The only real defence against such an Inquisitor is a more influential Inquisitor. It doesn't matter how much force you can call upon, if refusing to cooperate with an Inquisitor is a challenge to the entire Inquisition.... and challenging the Inquisition is unwise.
That said, most people in power will know powerful Inquisitors, or at the very least other Inquisitors will look unkindly upon one of their comrades shaking things up without due cause. An =I= who goes around executing planetary governors or even just demanding regiments of Imp Guard to serve him or using the Imp Navy as his personal taxi service will soon find himself being asked some very pointed questions by other Inquisitors... probably while strapped to a long table while a nasty man stabs him with knives.
The only Inquisitors who would have the influence to remove a High Lord would be Lord Inquisitors and even then it would probably require a few of them to agree. When a group of influential Inquisitors are united in a course of action few people will stand in their way.
macd21 said:
While true, even a newly ordained Inquisitor with little to no contacts, allies or resources is terrifyingly powerful, simply because he can order you to do something and to refuse is essentially punishable by death. The only real defence against such an Inquisitor is a more influential Inquisitor. It doesn't matter how much force you can call upon, if refusing to cooperate with an Inquisitor is a challenge to the entire Inquisition.... and challenging the Inquisition is unwise.
That said, most people in power will know powerful Inquisitors, or at the very least other Inquisitors will look unkindly upon one of their comrades shaking things up without due cause. An =I= who goes around executing planetary governors or even just demanding regiments of Imp Guard to serve him or using the Imp Navy as his personal taxi service will soon find himself being asked some very pointed questions by other Inquisitors... probably while strapped to a long table while a nasty man stabs him with knives.
The only Inquisitors who would have the influence to remove a High Lord would be Lord Inquisitors and even then it would probably require a few of them to agree. When a group of influential Inquisitors are united in a course of action few people will stand in their way.
Yeah, but that's just the thing ain't it. Inquisitors are so rarely cooperating with eachother for a common cause. Everyone has their own idea of how things should be done. Some have more heretical and radical ideas than others. And on top of that we have the Inquisitorial motto of "always trust in your suspicion" and "Divided we stand, united we fall" etc. etc. Which furthers extreme difficulty with Inquisitors ever really working together and bring all that power and authority to bear.
The Inquisition seems to be almost like the FBI in the X-Files. Certain Inquisitors are the "Agent Mulder's" in the organisation, and while being genuine seekers of truth and quite inquisitive, many times it won't really matter what sort of nasty evidence of heretical activities commited by planetary governors and High Lords in the Imperium that they find, because more often than not, the "Agent Mulder's" often go rogue during their investigations, and some succumb too much to their own agendas (the Ravenor and Eisenhorn books are excellent examples of this). So even if they were to present their findings, more often than not they have made enemies of quite a few other Inquisitors, and the rest consider them too untrustworthy and unproffesional to be given any respect.
If one actually expected to bring the full power of the Inquisition then that Inquisitor would have to have blatantly clear and obvious proof of heresy and treachery in order to rally several Inquisitors to his or her cause. The problem is, Inquisitors rarely acquire the blatantly clear and obvious proof because the most dangerous heretics leave so little proof behind.
So to summarize: the Inquisition is a powerful force if united, but a lone Inquisitor unable to unite the Inquisition to his or her cause will not have that much power at all. And while the rosette might give you the authority to simply tell an Arbites Judge that someone is guilty of heresy without having to provide solid proof for it, pestering other Inqisitors about someones supposed "guilt" without backing your claims up with solid evidence will not be that easy, because they have rosettes and investigations of their own and don't really have to listen to you. And some of them might even be in cahoots with the supposed suspect, or simply have grander plans for that suspect and don't wish to see him or her getting caught.
Then there's the problem of insulting the rest of the Inquisition by claiming to have proof that a High Lord or influential planetary governor is guily of something. Making such a claim in public of other Inquisitors means that you're basically saying that you know something they don't and that you're doing a better job than they are. Because if they had done their job right, they would have already known about the crimes commited by the Governor or High Lord. So if you don't have more proof than your "personal hunches" (upon which many Inquisitors often rely upon), you're basically saying to the rest of the local conclave that you're a better Inquisitor than they are, and that they are all incompetents.
Sure, some wise and ancient Inquisitor Lords might have grace enough to not listen to their personal ego all that much, but let's not forget what kind of people we're talking about here. We're talking about a loose organisation where everyone believes that they know what's best and what's right and that everybody else is completely wrong and probably a heretic/radical.
So, yes the Inquisition is mighty, but rarely very cohesive. In order to bring a cohesive Inquisitorial force to your cause, you need evidence and power. If you can't, you're pretty much left to your own devices. And a lone Inquisitor with just a rosette and a few acolytes and no political contacts, spies, special agents and friends will not be much more powerful than the average criminal gang. The rosette is useless if you can't back it up with sufficient force and demonstration of power. The only real benefit it provides is putting the fear of the Inquisition into normal citizens, regardless of social class. But if you do a shoddy job of maintaining that fear and do let slip the fact that you don't really have the backing of the entire Inquisition, and they start to entertain the idea that they might just be able to kill you in your sleep and dump you body where no one will find it, you'll be dead faster than you can blink...
Varnias Tybalt said:
Yeah, but that's just the thing ain't it. Inquisitors are so rarely cooperating with eachother for a common cause.
#Eisenhorn books are excellent examples of this).
Which one?
And while the rosette might give you the authority to simply tell an Arbites Judge that someone is guilty of heresy without having to provide solid proof for it, It gives you Authority to destroy Imperial Worlds ordering armies and fleets,
Making such a claim in public of other Inquisitors means that you're basically saying that you know something they don't and that you're doing a better job than they are. Because if they had done their job right, they would have already known about the crimes commited by the Governor or High Lord. So if you don't have more proof than your "personal hunches" (upon which many Inquisitors often rely upon), you're basically saying to the rest of the local conclave that you're a better Inquisitor than they are, and that they are all incompetents.
What Kind of childish, hothouse primaballerinas are getting the rosette in your games, Greg Vandire is only one example what happens if they act like that, it is not so rare that gouvernors made deal with aliens, or plan treason, if an Inquisitor say this, others will normally at last listen.
If in doubt better ten thousand innocents die, than on guilty slips through