And on two attacks TL is no better than focus, in fact it's worse because that focus can save your ship when you roll two eyes and no evades.

Exactly - as one guy said earlier in the discussion, getting TL on the new tie was like getting socks for Christmas!

Mind you, I guess Colonel Vessery is the one guy in the empire who loves getting socks under the Christmas Life Day tree!

He can take three advanced generics that have AC so they never miss, never use that TL and can take a focus or evade each turn to extend their survival while still having VI and mk.ii for himself.

That's essentially nine attacks that never miss and 21 hull points to chew through.

I agree that The Advanceds with AC are probably a better choice than Tie/Fo's in that situation. And in most situations unless you really need a more mobile ship.

I agree that The Advanceds with AC are probably a better choice than Tie/Fo's in that situation. And in most situations unless you really need a more mobile ship.

Their dials great no mistake but they just don't have the killing power to warrant their cost, even the named are only good as support ships for more powerful pilots.

I don't fly named z-95's because they never get their points back for scum or rebels, I wouldn't fly named fo's for the same reason.

I agree that The Advanceds with AC are probably a better choice than Tie/Fo's in that situation. And in most situations unless you really need a more mobile ship.

Their dials great no mistake but they just don't have the killing power to warrant their cost, even the named are only good as support ships for more powerful pilots.

I don't fly named z-95's because they never get their points back for scum or rebels, I wouldn't fly named fo's for the same reason.

that's because Z-95s can't move for ****

Fos don't have that issue

then again, it might just take a special kind of crazy to ignore dice in favor of maneuverability. After flying 5 A-wings, though, and especially PTL greenies, I have exactly zero doubts on how useful the elite Fos can be.

The generic Fos are swanky and I'd take them without a second thought because, hey, prototype pilots right? Unfortunately, I've never had any issue of generic vanilla Ties and I see no reason to replace my academies/obsidians with epislons/zetas.

Green dice, yes, but generic vanilla Ties, no

the biggest difference between the Omega Squadron and the Black Squadron is the 2 green turns (and extra shield) which just makes PTL a far safer investment. When you add on Zeta ace, who is utterly unique in its 2-roll, it's very easy to see where Fos fit in.

imo, it's going to be a named pilot ship (and it's ironic, given the "names," but there it is!)

Epsilon Ace - unknown

Zeta Ace - amazing 2-roll for blocking and dodging; unique ability

Epsilon Leader - supermegaultraspecial wingman; unique ability

Zeta Leader - unknown

Omega Ace - (personally not sold on this guy, but if you like guarantees...and guaranteed crits)

Omega Leader - holy ****...this guy is the reason Fos are never getting 3 attack dice

I agree that The Advanceds with AC are probably a better choice than Tie/Fo's in that situation. And in most situations unless you really need a more mobile ship.

Their dials great no mistake but they just don't have the killing power to warrant their cost, even the named are only good as support ships for more powerful pilots.

I don't fly named z-95's because they never get their points back for scum or rebels, I wouldn't fly named fo's for the same reason.

Yeah that's true, make Suhlak an exception to that since he basically gains one attack if used correctly, and potentially Omega Ace. Although i am still not at all convinced about Omega Ace. 2-3 crits are fine, just that now you don't have any defensive action nor movement for the turn left and are stressed, and its entirely possible that the attack is still evaded or the shields take it. In which case an AC Advanced does exactly the same for you unless at Range 1. And it still has an action.

No, I'm saying the flaw in your argument is that in the case of some ships, you assume that the TIE/FO is niot upgraded and the other ship is (A-Wing, Z-95), that the TIE/FO is basic and the other has switched up to a named pilot (TIE Fighter), or that I'm trying to use the TIE/FO as a swarm ship (TIE Fighter again) when that's not what I would suggest. The FO isn't a horrible swarm ship but it's just a bit too expensive to play nice with Howlrunner. It is, on the other hand, much more maneuverable than the Z-95 or Y-Wing (and more agility than either), a better dial than the TIE Fighter along with a shield and a target lock, and I would say better repositioning than the A-Wing. All of those ships also have advantages of their own, but that doesn't change the fact that the FO does have strengths that they do not.

I didn't count Backstabber and Mauler because they're unique pilots, and I prefer to compare the closest generics I can when comparing two ships. I'll acknowledge uniques as a factor but since I wouldn't use an Academy Pilot the same way I would use Mauler or Backstabber I don't see them as fulfilling the same role. TIEs are something I use for weight of numbers or because it's all I have the points for. Backstabber is someone I consider when my strategy has a specific need for someone that works well when flanking. Same way I didn't count Omega Ace because I would go out of my way to set up chances for him to use his ability at range 1, but I wouldn't put the same effort into getting an Epsilon Pilot the same shot.

Basically I see the TIE/FO as a weird mix between a TIE Fighter and an Interceptor. Cheaper and tougher than the equivalent Interceptors, but not as maneuverable. On the other hand they cost more than the equivalent TIE Fighter but have better dials, health, and actions. I wouldn't use them for swarming but I would use them if I have the points to use them instead of the TIE Fighters I would have used previously.

Most of what I was getting at earlier was saying that the flaw in your argument was stating that the TIE/FO has a weaker attack than other two attack ships, but not acknowledging the fact that those other ships must take upgrades to make that true. Once the list is chosen it doesn't matter what you could have equipped, so a Green Squad Pilot that couldn't afford any offensive buffs is not any stronger than a Zeta Squadron Pilot.

The A-Wing could equip missiles or something but that drives the cost up to noticeably higher than what I spent on my TIE/FO.

The Z-95 could equip a missile and cost only a bit more than Epsilon Pilot, but has far less maneuverability.

The Y-Wing can equip a variety of secondary weapons, but already costs more and flies much more clumsily.

The old TIE could have a unique pilot, but unique pilots are a mixed bag and often have conditions in order to be better than generics (Backstabber is just a PS6 TIE until he gets out of your arc, Mauler's just a PS7 TIE until he gets up close). They also have less health than the FO, except for Dark Curse who's basically only dead to bad luck and concentrated attacks.

The M3-A needs to spend an extra two points on whatever it uses to boost its attack, and tends to die quickly and violently if it does so.

The TIE Advanced (pre-Raider) was overcosted and would have started at six points more than the TIE/FO. With TIE/x1, it's a bit of a special snowflake that still costs more but is at least worth it if you have six points. ATC makes them play a bit differently than Accuracy Corrector, by making them less efficient on actions but increasing their potential damage. Keeping that target lock where you need it can be a problem, though.

I'm not saying the TIE/FO is some kind of unstoppable death angel, just that I think you're overvaluing the options that other ships have for improving their attacks while undervaluing the TIE/Fos ability to maneuver. It's still a fairly new ship but so far the games I've seen it in have shown a fairly impressive ability to get around. The FOs did lose the first game I fought them in (but that was a player that I don't think has ever beaten me...and it was mostly losing his 50 point Deathrain almost immediately), and I'm not sure how to value the second as it was a three player free-for-all (Omega Ace did scare the bejeezus out of me, so there was that).

I agree that The Advanceds with AC are probably a better choice than Tie/Fo's in that situation. And in most situations unless you really need a more mobile ship.

Their dials great no mistake but they just don't have the killing power to warrant their cost, even the named are only good as support ships for more powerful pilots.

I don't fly named z-95's because they never get their points back for scum or rebels, I wouldn't fly named fo's for the same reason.

Yeah that's true, make Suhlak an exception to that since he basically gains one attack if used correctly, and potentially Omega Ace. Although i am still not at all convinced about Omega Ace. 2-3 crits are fine, just that now you don't have any defensive action nor movement for the turn left and are stressed, and its entirely possible that the attack is still evaded or the shields take it. In which case an AC Advanced does exactly the same for you unless at Range 1. And it still has an action.

not exactly an apt comparison there

Omega Ace's ability is something you'd be silly to trigger at a range where it'll just get swatted off by green dice and he's a really silly thing to ever fly naked given the nature of his ability

what the Fo brings over the AC Advance is, of course, maneuverability and, a more overlooked advantage, PS.

PTL Zeta clocks in the same as the Tempest, with a noted PS advantage (5 being slightly redundant, but greater than every commonly seen generic apart from the RGP) and a very noted maneuverability increase at the cost of less reliable damage (don't even want to say lesser defense, because arc-dodging and token tanking will take Zeta into the late game far more reliably than a single evade/roll + 1 shield). With the forums apparently paranoid about tlts, Zeta would be your go to.

as for Omega (competing with...Storms? Colzet?), his PS is at an actually significant 7 (clashes with Dash on initiative) and the usefulness of his ability is predicated on the new (much improved damage deck). Personally, not sold on the guy (though I do like guarantee, naked green dice are not one of them).

Note, however, that you don't have to spam his ability, even if setting up TLs for future turns is an apparently forgotten art.

For my money, though, the one point bump up to Omega Leader seems a no brainer

That and you can target lock a valuable ship early on and use the threat of his ability to intimidate them away from getting to close. I've seen people do odd things to avoid getting hit, I'm eager to see what they'll do to avoid getting three crits to the face.

I'd be fine with FOs only being a support ship, the Empire kind of doesn't have that (Lambda doesn't count, its abilities are crap). The none support aces seem fun, though. Kind of in a Dark Curse way.

I'd be fine with FOs only being a support ship, the Empire kind of doesn't have that (Lambda doesn't count, its abilities are crap). The none support aces seem fun, though. Kind of in a Dark Curse way.

Have you ever even flown a shuttle?

Of course. Never as a support ship, though, because the abilities are not appealing at all. Pull stress? Maybe sometimes good, but you definitly don't want that stress on your shuttle or you won't ever turn. There also is Wingman for that. Pull target locks? Situational at best, since target lock rarely is the right action in the first place. If you pay that much for that ability I might also just focus Kagi anyways. Give out target locks? Allright-ish, but never really game changing. I sometimes would like to try a Jendon lead TIE Bomber squad, but it just seems so mediocre.

The one and only reason why the shuttle is used is its fantastic cost-stats ratio. For 21 points you outvalue the B-Wing easily and still have almost the same upgrade slots. The dial is a challenge of course, meaning Lambda spam most of the time isn't the best idea, but the base stats are more than rock solid. Should one take the uniques it would be for their PS value, not the ability.

Epic is a different story, Kagi can be worth his money when he protects a Raider from modified CR-90 attacks.

I'd be fine with FOs only being a support ship, the Empire kind of doesn't have that (Lambda doesn't count, its abilities are crap). The none support aces seem fun, though. Kind of in a Dark Curse way.

Have you ever even flown a shuttle?

To be fair it's not really a support ship (fleet officer and TL passing aside). I love flying the hipposhuttlebus but if you're using it as a support ship you are doing it wrong.

I totally forgot about that Fleet Officer build! That one is legit, but again doesn't use the pilot abilities and could be done with a Decimator in a similar, although inferior fashion.

the lamba is a support ship much in the sense that the Ferdinand was a support tank destroyer

picture for reference:

translation: it supports you by killing **** with a big, almost immobile gun

I've been trying to do a fleet officer shuttle with MegAce and EpiLee but can't quite figure out where to go after that.

I flew 3 of the epsilons with howlrunner and Vader last night. I was worried about how well those epsilons would do, but they far surpassed expectations. In my opinion, they are well worth the 3 points, but I don't see them ever being flown in more than a mini swarm.

With that dial, they were able to get shots on my preferred target every turn. They're more durable, and when howlrunner dies, they have target lock, which is a nice little bonus.

They certainly don't replace academy ties, but they play much better than they look on paper.

What was your opponent playing, Criwi? From what I've seen of them, I think I'd either prefer an extra academy for that opening round when Howl is still in the game, or to take dark curse, mithel, stabber or night beast for some extra aggro/damage. I love backstabber in particular - he and mauler seem to have a big psychological impact at a very low price.

I look at epsilon leader and he could be useful but it's 19 points for a ship that'll be targeted first and die pretty quickly and you can't use his dial because the ships you want to strip stress from need to stay close.

What was your opponent playing, Criwi? From what I've seen of them, I think I'd either prefer an extra academy for that opening round when Howl is still in the game, or to take dark curse, mithel, stabber or night beast for some extra aggro/damage. I love backstabber in particular - he and mauler seem to have a big psychological impact at a very low price.

He was flying Miranda and Chewy. The thing with replacing those ships with academies is that there were 2 rounds where they would not have had shots. I threw 12 more red dice than I would have, simply because of the dial.

So could this be a thing now?

Omega Squadron Pilot (17)

Push the Limit (3)

Omega Squadron Pilot (17)

Push the Limit (3)

Omega Squadron Pilot (17)

Push the Limit (3)

"Epsilon Leader" (19)

"Howlrunner" (18)

Push the Limit (3)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

You would fly swarm until they destroy Howlrunner or Epsilon Leader, after that you could go try and play them alike to A-Wings, Cat and Mouse between the asteroids.

With Focus Evade pretty much every turn, a Howlrunner reroll and pretty much no limitations to subsequent maneuvers, this should be quite durable. The firepower should be below a standard swarm, but a bit more precise as you get more actions.

I don't quite get what the OP means with lowest attack power. What's that? I mean you have similar attack power to nearly all 2 attack ships. With the option of Howlrunner being probably the best buff in the game to 2 attack ships!

Granted some of them have ordnance or cannon options, but they pay a steep price for them too. ans ordnance is still very underwhelming as we all know.

I just saw it in action today. It is a very interesting squad. It wasn't played in an ideal format, but it has some fascinating play potential. Tanking up, or mass barrel rolling. Along with not having to relay on their green moves.

I'd be fine with FOs only being a support ship, the Empire kind of doesn't have that (Lambda doesn't count, its abilities are crap). The none support aces seem fun, though. Kind of in a Dark Curse way.

Have you ever even flown a shuttle?

To be fair it's not really a support ship (fleet officer and TL passing aside). I love flying the hipposhuttlebus but if you're using it as a support ship you are doing it wrong.

Of course. Never as a support ship, though, because the abilities are not appealing at all. Pull stress? Maybe sometimes good, but you definitly don't want that stress on your shuttle or you won't ever turn. There also is Wingman for that. Pull target locks? Situational at best, since target lock rarely is the right action in the first place. If you pay that much for that ability I might also just focus Kagi anyways. Give out target locks? Allright-ish, but never really game changing. I sometimes would like to try a Jendon lead TIE Bomber squad, but it just seems so mediocre.

The one and only reason why the shuttle is used is its fantastic cost-stats ratio. For 21 points you outvalue the B-Wing easily and still have almost the same upgrade slots. The dial is a challenge of course, meaning Lambda spam most of the time isn't the best idea, but the base stats are more than rock solid. Should one take the uniques it would be for their PS value, not the ability.

Epic is a different story, Kagi can be worth his money when he protects a Raider from modified CR-90 attacks.

The Emperor disagrees with your assesments.

Of course. Never as a support ship, though, because the abilities are not appealing at all. Pull stress? Maybe sometimes good, but you definitly don't want that stress on your shuttle or you won't ever turn. There also is Wingman for that. Pull target locks? Situational at best, since target lock rarely is the right action in the first place. If you pay that much for that ability I might also just focus Kagi anyways. Give out target locks? Allright-ish, but never really game changing. I sometimes would like to try a Jendon lead TIE Bomber squad, but it just seems so mediocre.

The one and only reason why the shuttle is used is its fantastic cost-stats ratio. For 21 points you outvalue the B-Wing easily and still have almost the same upgrade slots. The dial is a challenge of course, meaning Lambda spam most of the time isn't the best idea, but the base stats are more than rock solid. Should one take the uniques it would be for their PS value, not the ability.

Epic is a different story, Kagi can be worth his money when he protects a Raider from modified CR-90 attacks.

I have never seen anyone play anything besides a plain OGP or the doomshuttle. The unique lambda pilot abilities have too many constraints/too high a cost to make them useful (outside of Kagi in epic) and they have no EPT. Combined with the new large ship MOV all of the named lambda pilots have been pushed further into obscurity. What is the benefit of a high PS shuttle pilot? Target lock? It only makes them prone to being blocked and they can't reposition without even more points being pumped into upgrades, which is even more painful because of the new ruling.

The cow may have jumped over the moon but that doesn't count for crap in a dogfight.

Having the native TL action has been a godsend. You can now spend rounds setting up TL + F rather than ALWAYS being forced to rely on Focus for damage. Good ways to do this...

1. Move in a path to block, take a TL. Save it for a good shot.

2. Take a range 3 shot, roll 2 blanks, save the TL for next round with F.

3. Take a TL, roll 2 natural hits, use TL next round instead of having a wasted focus action.

4. Need to disengage with a Tie to setup next round? Take a TL and use it when that Tie gets back into the fight instead of wasting an action.

Overall, TL makes the ship just that much more action efficient! It's way more fun and rewarding.

Because I tell ya, I HATE only having Focus for offense. Running Soontir + PTL + AT + SD is very annoying when I am on the flank and wishing I could have reliable attacks. The TIE FO doesn't have that problem.

I don't want to come off as overly salty or anything, but i kind of just want to say that from my point of view(everyone at my FLGS plays nothing but the meta Imperials, so after Wave 4 it was all Phantoms which all disappeared after the Phantom debuff, after Imperial Aces it was all Interceptors, and now after Raider it's all Advanceds to the point that literally 50% of the people at our last store tournament were using at least 2 TIE Advanceds, and now the Emperor is making the rounds in our games as well), Imperials not getting another really great, blow-the-enemy-out-of-the-water good ship is not a bad thing. it's really great for me. It's one less powerful ship i need to worry about.

Edit: Double post.

I don't want to come off as overly salty or anything, but i kind of just want to say that from my point of view(everyone at my FLGS plays nothing but the meta Imperials, so after Wave 4 it was all Phantoms which all disappeared after the Phantom debuff, after Imperial Aces it was all Interceptors, and now after Raider it's all Advanceds to the point that literally 50% of the people at our last store tournament were using at least 2 TIE Advanceds, and now the Emperor is making the rounds in our games as well), Imperials not getting another really great, blow-the-enemy-out-of-the-water good ship is not a bad thing. it's really great for me. It's one less powerful ship i need to worry about.

uh oh

poor guy hasn't seen Omega Leader

Isn't an FO with the weapons guidance tech upgrade a strong increase in attack power? People love the AC advanced for 21, and it has a dial with a lot to be desired. Granted, the FO can't evade and get 2 hits every round, but it is also a lot cheaper, 21 point AC tempest vs. 17 point Epsilon. I still prefer comm relay, but the tech slot should't be overlooked with this ship.

Also, I love that it didn't invalidate the standard fighter, as I really want a Gozanti and I am excited to see which pilots are going to be released alongside Scourge! I think the FO is a great addition to imperials, and there is no one clear role for it, which makes me happy. Once wave 8 hits there are going to be a ton of options in the low 20s for imperials.