It depends on what you are looking for in a ship. Having played Vader pre-X1, 2 Atk isn't nearly as bad as you are talking about. Especially if you are talking about cheap ships.
And you can't really be serious about the FO being less offensive than the A-wing. They have the same attack. They both have TL/Focus. The ability to take Missiles is not that powerful.
It depends on what you are looking for in a ship. Having played Vader pre-X1, 2 Atk isn't nearly as bad as you are talking about. Especially if you are talking about cheap ships.
And you can't really be serious about the FO being less offensive than the A-wing. They have the same attack. They both have TL/Focus. The ability to take Missiles is not that powerful.
that really deserves repetition
missiles are not great value, and just having the option does not automatically mean that every A-wing is going to show up with a free brace of prockets in tow. You pay out the nose for those buggers 
it is, however, 100% worth it on Jake Farrel. Dude flies what looks like a USPS A-wing, and it's because he's delivering those prockets right to your face
I think the fo strength is in its maneuvers; the ability to s loop, then have your pick of green 2 speed bearings is no joke.
That shield is obnoxious too; once you could one shot a tie easily, but these guys linger like a bad smell where a normal ln would be vapor.
Also, I like using target lock on these guys; it's like howlrunner without the 20 point surcharge.
The Times I've played them, they do well with all those maneuver options, nickel and diming any enemy to Death.
Like a normal tie really.
FO ships are NOT Imperial. They work with Imperial forces for the sake of the game, but they are not Imperial.
They may call themselves Byzantium instead of Roman, but they're still the successor state of the Roman Empire. And their history is still Roman. As are their legions.
It depends on what you are looking for in a ship. Having played Vader pre-X1, 2 Atk isn't nearly as bad as you are talking about. Especially if you are talking about cheap ships.
And you can't really be serious about the FO being less offensive than the A-wing. They have the same attack. They both have TL/Focus. The ability to take Missiles is not that powerful.
that really deserves repetition
missiles are not great value, and just having the option does not automatically mean that every A-wing is going to show up with a free brace of prockets in tow. You pay out the nose for those buggers
it is, however, 100% worth it on Jake Farrel. Dude flies what looks like a USPS A-wing, and it's because he's delivering those prockets right to your face
- P-rockets
- 2 EPTs on generics and elites alike
- boost to close range
= three clear ways the A-wing can be built to have a superior attack to the /fo.
Keep in mind, only the Green Squadron Pilot can have 2 EPTs. Also, when you are talking about EPTs, you are talking about added cost.
The FO may not be what you want. That's fine. The V1 may more be up your ally when it comes out. But, that is preference. The FO is a fine ship, with some crazy maneuverablity. The 2-sloop is pretty crazy.
Keep in mind, only the Green Squadron Pilot can have 2 EPTs. Also, when you are talking about EPTs, you are talking about added cost.
The FO may not be what you want. That's fine. The V1 may more be up your ally when it comes out. But, that is preference. The FO is a fine ship, with some crazy maneuverablity. The 2-sloop is pretty crazy.
Fos for shenanegans
V1s for Juke + tie/v1 to the face!
put em in the same list for fun times 
I think Comm Relay + Juke will rival anything most of the 2 EPT combos you can put on an A-wing.
I'm with OP, I'm not going to shelve Backstabber or Mauler Mithel just yet. Those guys have shot down more terrorist rebels than any other pilots I use.
I think Comm Relay + Juke will rival anything most of the 2 EPT combos you can put on an A-wing.
depends on the fo, imo (yay rhyme!)
on the advertised Omega Leader, I think it's way too cluncky (need to set up evade and then tl without losing the evade...bleck) and also on Omega Ace (need TL + focus + evade on one action a round)
could be fun on Zeta, though rolling around will leave him with no mods outside juke
apart from the unspoiled Zeta leader and Eps ace (though the likelihood that eps ace has an EPT is basically 0%), seems like something to reserve for Omega Squadron Pilots
Edited by ficklegreendice2sloop and then a 2 green bank is a 0 kturn. Add BR (or BR2!) and you can cover pretty much any space. You can 2 straight, 2 bank, or 2 turn out of the sloop and still get an action (or 2) so you really shouldn't ever miss a round of shooting with these guys.
THAT is a powerful ability. And every tie FO has it.
Edited by Rakky WistolWeapons Guidance over 5 FO ties is cheaper than howlrunner. Get a 6th Epsilon, or upgrdade all 5 to Crack Shot Omegas.
Everyone keeps trying to fill out the entire list with FOs. Sprinkle in those academy pilots. Shave a few points for upgrades or aces.
Do two TIE/FOs stack up to 1 new T70 X-Wing? Generic on generic?
Isn't that the first comparison one should make?
They are indeed new faction ships.
Both get an extra hit point, but shield > hull: advantage FO
Both get improved dials and it's difficult to say which is superior. I give the advantage in maneuverability to the TIE/FOs because you get 2 for 1, and that's superior.
Target Lock versus Boost: Hands down, Boos on a 6 hit point ship > Target Lock on a 2-attack ship. On a 2-attack TIE, you are always better to take a focus than a Target Lock. The multi-nature of Focus is better on a low-offense ship. In other words, Target Lock is completely wasted on all TIE/FOs. That's a bummer. Advantage T70.
Cost is hard to compare: 2 ships for 30 versus 1 ship for 24... Again this probably goes to the FO.
So on a head to head basis, they're as comparable (I assert) as the original 2xTIE Academy Pilot versus Rookie X-Wing.
On to the point of whether it's the worst 2-attack ship in the game...
It can't be considered worse than an Academy Pilot on a direct cost comparison. For 3 more points you get a shield (awesome), the target lock ability (socks on Christmas day), and the S-Loop turns which change pretty much everything where maneuver and blocking are concerned. That is an excellent return on 3 points.
It is clearly a more survivable ship than the original TIE. It is clearly a more maneuverable ship as well.
So how can it be worse than the original TIE?
It can only be 'worse' when you assign it to a particular role. If you want it to be in the "cheapest ship point for point" it's not.
Where it comes across poorly is A) when you trie to get it to do exactly what the old TIEs did (because the you're wasting 3 points per ship)
B) When you compare named TIE Fighter pilots to generic FO pilots.
I consider the rolling of 3 evade dice to be an experience "Somewhere between Christmas and being buried alive." Whiffing on 3 evade dice is much more survivable now. The shield save against a critical hit will be a big difference maker in games.
TL makes them amazing buddies for Vess. That is nice. I'm thinking 2 + the inquisitor when he hits + Vess if going to be fun. A shuttle with FCS is standing in until the inquisitor comes to town.
Generics are very much a triumph of durability over firepower.
An epsilon pilot with a hull upgrade is essentially a pre-update TIE advanced - which was lambasted for a lack of firepower.
HOWEVER: the TIE/fo has a massively superior dial and you get five, not four. So your squads net firepower is closer to that of three three attack ships.
This again gets better with comms relay, turning the extra hull into a recoverable shield (ish).
The best firepower increase is combining comms relay and juke - it's subtle as it doesnt increase your damage output but instead reduces your opponent's defence, whilst letting you pull the best defensive action going at the same time
Edited by Magnus GrendelThey have the exact same attack as many other ships. It doesn't matter that the TIE Fighter can take Mauler or Backstabber unless they actually do. Epsilon Squadron and Academy Pilot have the same attack, no matter what other pilots exist. A-Wings can equip missiles (one-offs) or two EPTs (expensive as hell, usually) but beyond that they will still have the same attack as the TIE/FO. Z-95s can also use missiles but again, that is a one-off. You are also not required to run the whole list as these ships, TIE/FOs are very good at flanking or blocking thanks to having an upgraded TIE Fighter dial.
Saying the FO lacks firepower largely requires us to ignore that most of the other ships you mention are in the same boat unless they spend a bunch of points on upgrades/better pilots.
If you're making a squad of five you could even get Omegas with Predator. Could conceivable hurt TLT Ys quite a bit.
They have the exact same attack as many other ships. It doesn't matter that the TIE Fighter can take Mauler or Backstabber unless they actually do. Epsilon Squadron and Academy Pilot have the same attack, no matter what other pilots exist.
I'm sorry but this reasoning seems murky to me. Your argument is that because they all share the same base attack, they all have the same power to damage the enemy? But people DO indeed take mauler and stabber, along with all the other build options that are available to all the other ships with 2 attack, in order to improve upon them, from glitterstim to 2 epts to pilot abilities. Your argument, then, is that we shouldn't take these potential builds into consideration when assessing a ship? Then your assessment will come to false conclusions - one being that 'they have the exact same attack as many other ships.' Because naked B-wings and naked interceptors have the exact same attack, they are identical in their ability to damage the enemy? Zs and tie advanced? Punishers and Y-wings? You can't actually believe this, can you? Yet this is the conclusion entailed by your own argument.
The only other thing I can take from what you're saying is that, if we ignore all other factors, then because academy and epsilon have the same attack, and the same upgrades, they are comparable in attack. This is true, but ignores that both ships are swarm ships, whose value is predicated upon their efficiency. One is 20% cheaper than the other, and has a much higher joust efficiency. So even here I think we disagree. 
So could this be a thing now?
Omega Squadron Pilot (17)
Push the Limit (3)
Omega Squadron Pilot (17)
Push the Limit (3)
Omega Squadron Pilot (17)
Push the Limit (3)
"Epsilon Leader" (19)
"Howlrunner" (18)
Push the Limit (3)
Total: 100
View in Yet Another Squad Builder
You would fly swarm until they destroy Howlrunner or Epsilon Leader, after that you could go try and play them alike to A-Wings, Cat and Mouse between the asteroids.
With Focus Evade pretty much every turn, a Howlrunner reroll and pretty much no limitations to subsequent maneuvers, this should be quite durable. The firepower should be below a standard swarm, but a bit more precise as you get more actions.
I don't quite get what the OP means with lowest attack power. What's that? I mean you have similar attack power to nearly all 2 attack ships. With the option of Howlrunner being probably the best buff in the game to 2 attack ships!
Granted some of them have ordnance or cannon options, but they pay a steep price for them too. ans ordnance is still very underwhelming as we all know.
Edited by ForceMI don't quite get what the OP means with lowest attack power. What's that? I mean you have similar attack power to nearly all 2 attack ships.
Hi Force! Apologies for being vague! The ability to improve your basic attack. I agree all two attackships have two attack. I disagreed that the /fo has parity with any other 2-attack ship ...
"- Tie adv. is so superior in attack it doesn't really seem worth discussing.
- Scyks get heavy upgrades
- Scum Z's get feedback array, glitterstim, missiles and N'dru
- Bombers get GUNZ
- Punishers get MOAR GUNZ with added fcs/ac, etc etc.
- TAPs get action economy, boost, missile slot and the inquisitor.
- the rebel Z's are, I think, the only ship that can challenge the /fo for the red wooden spoon, but even here you get incredible joust efficiency and alpha strike potential."
I am less convinced of my conclusion now, though, as earlier in the thread someone pointed out that in the future, juke + comm relay will be A Thing. That could prove to be pretty powerful, even though decking the /fo like that makes it more expensive than a Tie Adv. and an IA rookie...
Edited by banjobenitoScyks also don't really compete as they have that +2 tax on cannons, even though they are slightly overcosted as they are already.
I'd be fine with FOs only being a support ship, the Empire kind of doesn't have that (Lambda doesn't count, its abilities are crap). The none support aces seem fun, though. Kind of in a Dark Curse way.
Edited by Admiral DeathrainI think the fo strength is in its maneuvers; the ability to s loop, then have your pick of green 2 speed bearings is no joke.
That shield is obnoxious too; once you could one shot a tie easily, but these guys linger like a bad smell where a normal ln would be vapor.
Also, I like using target lock on these guys; it's like howlrunner without the 20 point surcharge.
The Times I've played them, they do well with all those maneuver options, nickel and diming any enemy to Death.
Like a normal tie really.
I've lost count of the times I've one shot headhunters and a-wings four hit points isn't that much better than three, but the academy has the advantage of being cheap.
And on two attacks TL is no better than focus, in fact it's worse because that focus can save your ship when you roll two eyes and no evades.
The dial may be nice but it's no protection from turrets and the fo becomes obsolete when the TAP arrives because it can mount AT.
Hi Force! Apologies for being vague! The ability to improve your basic attack. I agree all two attackships have two attack. I disagreed that the /fo has parity with any other 2-attack ship ...I don't quite get what the OP means with lowest attack power. What's that? I mean you have similar attack power to nearly all 2 attack ships.
"- Tie adv. is so superior in attack it doesn't really seem worth discussing.- Scyks get heavy upgrades- Scum Z's get feedback array, glitterstim, missiles and N'dru- Bombers get GUNZ- Punishers get MOAR GUNZ with added fcs/ac, etc etc.- TAPs get action economy, boost, missile slot and the inquisitor.- the rebel Z's are, I think, the only ship that can challenge the /fo for the red wooden spoon, but even here you get incredible joust efficiency and alpha strike potential."
I am less convinced of my conclusion now, though, as earlier in the thread someone pointed out that in the future, juke + comm relay will be A Thing. That could prove to be pretty powerful, even though decking the /fo like that makes it more expensive than a Tie Adv. and an IA rookie...
Yeah i agree that the ship is not as swarmable as the standard Tie, but you lose firepower slower than a standard swarm.
I mean i played a game with Poe/Corran/Prototype against a standard Howlrunner/Epsilon Swarm with academies.
I won, they got corran down to 1 Hull, but then he was able to clear arcs and recharged shields, while Poe Literally rolled them up from one flank to another. He killed one Tie 3 subsequent turns and after that the firepower left was not enough to get through my tanky shield recharging ships. I mean i was lucky when he blanked all attacks on Poe one turn, but before that i was unlucky blanking on 9 greens in one turn with Corran.
What i think is that if he had Fo's i would not have been able to whittle his firepower away that fast. He would also have been able to block me if he didn't lose those 3 Ties back to back.
And on two attacks TL is no better than focus, in fact it's worse because that focus can save your ship when you roll two eyes and no evades.
Exactly - as one guy said earlier in the discussion, getting TL on the new tie was like getting socks for Christmas!
Mind you, I guess Colonel Vessery is the one guy in the empire who loves getting socks under the Christmas Life Day tree!