How does dodge work on a killing blow atack?
Killing blow(feat card): Play after rolling the dice in a melee atack. The hero chooses the result of that atack roll, placing those sides ot the dice faceup, except tha the hero cannot change the facing result of the red die.
Because both Dodge and Killing blow take effect after the dice are being rolled.
Would the ruling not be the same as for Aiming? In other words nothing happens.
If you go the other route, then it probably would depend on when the card is played...before or after dodging. I suggest after dodging.
avianfoo said:
Would the ruling not be the same as for Aiming? In other words nothing happens.
If you go the other route, then it probably would depend on when the card is played...before or after dodging. I suggest after dodging.
The problem is both cards are played on the same condition. There is no pre-determined order for when a dodge card must be played, so the OL can hold onto his Dodge card for as long as the heroes hold on to Killing Blow. By the time it's too late for one, it's too late for both. So you'd have a stalemate that depends entirely on how patient each side can be, which is not generally a good strategy, unless you happen to know your OL is impatient. =P
I like the idea of ruling it the same as aiming (this sort of timing dispute is probably one of the big reasons dodge and aim cancel each other), but I don't know if there's any actual rules to support that. I know there's a rule about dice can only be re-rolled once, ever. The question is, does choosing the die faces count as "re-rolling?" I'd be inclined to say yes.
I think the smart OL would play Dodge as soon as the hero plays Killing Blow. Then they would resolve in order and waste the heroes Killing Blow.
However, and I could be wrong, I don't think changing the dice faces would actually count a rerolling them since you don't actually roll them. You are actively choosing the dice faces. That allows the OL to come in after all had been said and done and force you to reroll them.
Of course the flip side of my interpretation is if the OL plays a Dodge on one of your attacks, you would then be able to come in with Killing Blow after you have rerolled the dice for the Dodge and change the faces to whatever you want.
Tough call. I'm pretty sure there's no solid rules support for anything you rule, but certainly not for having them cancel out. Interactions for feats and overlord cards are poorly specified in general. So you're probably stuck with making up a houserule no matter what.
On the one hand, choosing dice faces is much stronger than rerolling them. I could see someone deciding that Killing Blow is like a super-aim, and so maybe a dodge should partially cancel with it and reduce it to a normal aim.
On the other hand, Killing Blow doesn't work on the red die (with an X), generally the most important die to reroll with a dodge (or an aim, if it's an X), so "partially canceling" to an aim gives the feat more power over the red die (presumably neither Dodge nor Killing Blow gets played if the red die is already an X, but it would at least mean the feat prevents the red die being rerolled). I could see possibly ruling that the dodge can only reroll the red die and Killing Blow still controls the rest, which makes dodge less powerful, but also gives a 1/6 chance of negating the feat by causing the entire attack to miss. Highly random, but maybe fair.
Incidentally, I find it odd that Killing Blow is written specifically to stop you from messing with the red die, but not any other dice you may be rolling that have X's (stealth die, and it's occasionally possible to roll blue/white on a melee attack...though maybe not for heroes using official cards).
Big Remy said:
However, and I could be wrong, I don't think changing the dice faces would actually count a rerolling them since you don't actually roll them. You are actively choosing the dice faces. That allows the OL to come in after all had been said and done and force you to reroll them.
That is, of course, the crux of the arguement. For my part I believe the whole point of the rule about only re-rolling once is to keep the game moving and not have to fiddle with the dice six times before the outcome of an attack is known. In that vein I am inclined to treat this card's ability to set the faces you want as if it were a re-roll for rules purposes simply because it keeps things simple.
I'm a big fan of simple rules. I find the best and most strategic games are the ones with a short, simple ruleset that has several elegantly designed angles to come at things. Big bulky rules, while providing many options, often result in a night of flipping pages and debating "the intention" of the rule rather than simply enjoying the game. Descent is a big bullky game. Don't get me wrong, I love it to bits, but that's what it is. As a result, I generally try to look for the simplest solution to any uncertain situation, just to prevent the rules from getting bigger and bulkier in the process of figuring the situation out.
Steve-O said:
For my part I believe the whole point of the rule about only re-rolling once is to keep the game moving and not have to fiddle with the dice six times before the outcome of an attack is known. In that vein I am inclined to treat this card's ability to set the faces you want as if it were a re-roll for rules purposes simply because it keeps things simple.
Unfortunately, that doesn't actually resolve the situation. The rules state that under no circumstances can a single attack be re-rolled more than once, but they don't actually tell us what to do if an attack would be re-rolled more than once, except in the specific case of aim and dodge. (We also get a separate rule for dodge and dodge repeated several times under all the AoE abilities, so we can probably assume that generalizes.) But we don't have a general "all the re-rolls cancel" rule or "the last one wins" rule or anything like that (in fact, it would be hard to envision a general rule that would cover both the aim+dodge case and the dodge+dodge case without changing either).
So even if Killing Blow is a reroll, that still leaves open the question of what the heck we're supposed to do in this situation.
Antistone said:
Tough call. I'm pretty sure there's no solid rules support for anything you rule, but certainly not for having them cancel out. Interactions for feats and overlord cards are poorly specified in general. So you're probably stuck with making up a houserule no matter what.
+1
Antistone said:
Incidentally, I find it odd that Killing Blow is written specifically to stop you from messing with the red die, but not any other dice you may be rolling that have X's (stealth die, and it's occasionally possible to roll blue/white on a melee attack...though maybe not for heroes using official cards).
FWIW I don't see too much conflict between Killing Blow and Dodge.
Killing Blow is not a reroll, so it doesn't prevent Dodging.
I prefer to say that Killing blow is 'active' once played. The OL can play a Dodge if he wants, and can reroll an or all dice. But there is no point except for the red dice, as the Killing Blow still can choose the face of any other dice showing.
IMO this is a 'middle ground' ruling in the absence of any evidence either way. Neither effect is completely nullified by the other, but both are reduced in effect overall if both are played.
My gaming group ran into the exact same issue, and I agree with Antistone that it is a confusing subject and one which there isn't really a "right" answer to. We ended up ruling that they canceled out each other.
Since it happened though I have been thinking about it and talked with my group and next time I believe we will play it that the Dodge goes off first, then the Killing Blow. The reason for this was the wording on Killing Blow which states to play it "after dice are rolled for an attack", I'm not totally sure as I don't have it in front of me, but I believe it does not have the word "immiedietly" does it? We figured that "after dice are rolled" meant after any re-rolls as well since it seems that rolling and re-rolling are all part of the same combat step. We then thought that the Killing Blow card should take place after this combat step and therefore after the Dodge card. This also makes the feat card more powerful which is important since it seems to me that feat cards are more rare and precious than a single OL card.
That was just our logic though and we could certainly be far off. I would suggest doing that, or just having them cancel as those two options seem to make the most sense to me, but that's just my 2 cents.