Dang, I just checked. Yeah, the ISD doesn't have the Ordnance upgrade. That's strange, considering it has black dice. Well, even without ACMs, it'd still be pretty gross.

Imagine the front arc with expanded launchers with devastator.

... well, good job FFG for seeing that potential terrible combo before I did.

I raise you a VSD1 with Domin-nomin-ator and Expanded Launchers with Ordinance teams for 3 red 2 blue and 5 black. Ahh, why not, throw in Heavy Turbolasers too to neuter that brace.... cause why not. The only downside is that you lose out on Gunnery team.

Well, actually, we could then throw slaved turrets on their, and if they do what we thing they do, then you get 4 red, 2 blue, and 5 black. Then add a dice from CF command, and reroll the blanks on the black dice. Add Vader for the reroll of everything, or screed for hit-crit fishing and spending blank red dice.

And tractors so that once you catch them, they can't get away. Uhhhgg, this is gross. Reminds me of a certain flesh star-destroyer from a certain podcast. (12 dice max!!! TWELVE. RE-ROLL SIX!)

Dang, I just checked. Yeah, the ISD doesn't have the Ordnance upgrade. That's strange, considering it has black dice. Well, even without ACMs, it'd still be pretty gross.

Imagine the front arc with expanded launchers with devastator.

... well, good job FFG for seeing that potential terrible combo before I did.

I raise you a VSD1 with Domin-nomin-ator and Expanded Launchers with Ordinance teams for 3 red 2 blue and 5 black. Ahh, why not, throw in Heavy Turbolasers too to neuter that brace.... cause why not. The only downside is that you lose out on Gunnery team.

Well, actually, we could then throw slaved turrets on their, and if they do what we thing they do, then you get 4 red, 2 blue, and 5 black. Then add a dice from CF command, and reroll the blanks on the black dice. Add Vader for the reroll of everything, or screed for hit-crit fishing and spending blank red dice.

And tractors so that once you catch them, they can't get away. Uhhhgg, this is gross. Reminds me of a certain flesh star-destroyer from a certain podcast. (12 dice max!!! TWELVE. RE-ROLL SIX!)

The cost of this is, what... 114-118? (Slaved turrets is throwing me off.) The cost is surprisingly... much, much lower than I thought it would be. Add an ISD I and two Raider Is, and that's four ships, nearly 30 dice, and 80-90 points for the commander and other goodies.

So much for the Vic being obsolete... ever...

I love this game.

Edit: I missed the tractor beams the first time. Gosh, that's a ton of stuff on that Vic...

So with this, both Warlord and Dominator Titles of the VSD have been buffed, and Corrupter is about to receive some new squadron support to have a fling with.

Same with GSD.

The only thing I don't like about that Vic build is that it requires losing shields to use. While, yes, you can use repair tokens to regain them next turn, if your opponent can launch an equally strong attack and you weaken your shields for him... well, I've always been rather conservative when it comes to my strategies. Perhaps the risk is well worth the reward here. I'll have to playtest it a few times to figure out whether I like it or not.

Before our 400 point limit, I really didn't like it. Too expensive at the 300 point cost. At 400 points though, I agree with Rythbrytrbrythrt: it does feel like far fewer points for that build. Now I feel it might be worth the risk, since we've got 100 extra points of weight elsewhere in our lists now.

Dang, I just checked. Yeah, the ISD doesn't have the Ordnance upgrade. That's strange, considering it has black dice. Well, even without ACMs, it'd still be pretty gross.

Imagine the front arc with expanded launchers with devastator.

... well, good job FFG for seeing that potential terrible combo before I did.

I raise you a VSD1 with Domin-nomin-ator and Expanded Launchers with Ordinance teams for 3 red 2 blue and 5 black. Ahh, why not, throw in Heavy Turbolasers too to neuter that brace.... cause why not. The only downside is that you lose out on Gunnery team.

Well, actually, we could then throw slaved turrets on their, and if they do what we thing they do, then you get 4 red, 2 blue, and 5 black. Then add a dice from CF command, and reroll the blanks on the black dice. Add Vader for the reroll of everything, or screed for hit-crit fishing and spending blank red dice.

And tractors so that once you catch them, they can't get away. Uhhhgg, this is gross. Reminds me of a certain flesh star-destroyer from a certain podcast. (12 dice max!!! TWELVE. RE-ROLL SIX!)

The cost of this is, what... 114-118? (Slaved turrets is throwing me off.) The cost is surprisingly... much, much lower than I thought it would be. Add an ISD I and two Raider Is, and that's four ships, nearly 30 dice, and 80-90 points for the commander and other goodies.

So much for the Vic being obsolete... ever...

I love this game.

Edit: I missed the tractor beams the first time. Gosh, that's a ton of stuff on that Vic...

And you need a Raider with Ion Batteries to strip everyone's Nav tokens. Oh, slaved turrets are a mod, hurr I knew that.

So, max 11 dice, 6 are black, and it is constantly trying to slow you down while moving speed 2 for the ram. Wuff could be aboard for the engineering token loop. But that is another 7 points. Intel officer is actually garbage, they will spend that token anyways because they will pop if they don't.

Heavy turrets for the dilemma of spending the brace to reduce the average damage of something like 15 down to 8 and take 3-4 on the shield with no redirects, and a face-up damage card and 3-4 more face down damage cards on the hull. This might be able to oneshot a Assault Frigate through the front shields. Or they use the redirect, and say they have advanced projectors. That is 12 damage to every single shield facing, and 1 face up damage card and 2 more face down ones on the hull.

Or you have the X19's, they redirect with advanced projectors and brace, and... actually that really cuts the damage. 3 on the other shields, 4 on the front, and 1 to the hull which is face-up. Impossible to not crit with this monster though.

So, Heavy turrets it is. Unless you think you can get a consistent accuracy or two, then take XX9's for more face up damage cards, or H9's to cancel that brace all together (unless EMC's...)

The rerolls help you get 1 damage per die, not 2 damage per die (on average). On the first roll, you obviously keep the hit/crit and reroll the blanks. Rerolled blanks will average out to 1 damage. If you reroll your single hits, yes you could up them to a hit/crit but you could also end up with a blank. Gamblers can use it, but over time that part should come out equal. Therefore over time it makes a black die worth .25 extra damage (25% chance rolling the first blank times the expected 1 average damage) without increasing the upper bound of maximum damage.

That'd be a good anvil piece. Use the slow VSD with some squints for bomber screening move up one side, have your ISD and Glads/Raiders move the other way. Rebel fleets will want to kite the big scary ISD, right into the VSD's clutches.

The rerolls help you get 1 damage per die, not 2 damage per die (on average). On the first roll, you obviously keep the hit/crit and reroll the blanks. Rerolled blanks will average out to 1 damage. If you reroll your single hits, yes you could up them to a hit/crit but you could also end up with a blank. Gamblers can use it, but over time that part should come out equal. Therefore over time it makes a black die worth .25 extra damage (25% chance rolling the first blank times the expected 1 average damage) without increasing the upper bound of maximum damage.

The upper bound of maximum damage for that load out is 21 damage BTW..

If squadrons are engaged by other squadrons, they cannot attack ships. Raider is a ship, therefore squadrons will never attack Raider with Instigator (at distance 1)

True or false?

Squadrons must attack other squadrons they are engaged with, if able. Squadrons cannot attack Instigator's imaginary friends, and so they are free to attack it (or any other capital ship in range). They still cannot move.

If squadrons are engaged by other squadrons, they cannot attack ships. Raider is a ship, therefore squadrons will never attack Raider with Instigator (at distance 1)

True or false?

False. "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship." No squadrons so they can attack the raider still.

If squadrons are engaged by other squadrons, they cannot attack ships. Raider is a ship, therefore squadrons will never attack Raider with Instigator (at distance 1)

True or false?

False. "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship." No squadrons so they can attack the raider still.

If squadrons are engaged by other squadrons, they cannot attack ships. Raider is a ship, therefore squadrons will never attack Raider with Instigator (at distance 1)

True or false?

False. "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship." No squadrons so they can attack the raider still.

They are considered engaged. Not with the Raider but with ghost squadrons. So until they FAQ that, they can't attack ships because a ship can't engage squadrons.

Not true. They must attack engaged squadrons "if possible". Since the ghost squadrons don't exist, it is not possible. Therefore they don't have to attack them, and can attack a ship.

No FAQ needed, wording is very precise.

Agreed with Extropia.

Instigator is basically the friend who gets a bastard in a full nelson while the raider goes to work punching him in the gut

I think the Raider is going to make the CR90 much more important

I actually had the opposite initial reaction--that this will make the CR-90 obsolete. If a CR-90 gets caught on the rear by this thing, it will go down hard (even at close range with Mon Mothma). Rerollable black dice, ACMs, speed 4, brace and evades, Screed synergy...

The trouble with getting behind a CR-90 and shooting them up with a Raider is that you shoot, then move. This makes chasing a ship from directly behind them terribly inefficient. Even if you start out in base-to-base contact with them, speed 2 will take them out of range of your black dice. Speed 3 will take them out of range of your blue dice, too. Meanwhile, when you move to catch up with them, you're almost always moving into range of their guns. Now, admittedly the CR90's rear arc is basically the safest place you can be in the game, but if you're chasing them at speed 3, they're getting shots off and you aren't.

Of course, that assumes a chase in a vacuum, without obstacles, squadrons, or other ships, all of which complicate matters. But on an infinite featureless plane, a Raider doesn't really want to be chasing a CR90.

I think the Raider is going to make the CR90 much more important

I actually had the opposite initial reaction--that this will make the CR-90 obsolete. If a CR-90 gets caught on the rear by this thing, it will go down hard (even at close range with Mon Mothma). Rerollable black dice, ACMs, speed 4, brace and evades, Screed synergy...

The trouble with getting behind a CR-90 and shooting them up with a Raider is that you shoot, then move. This makes chasing a ship from directly behind them terribly inefficient. Even if you start out in base-to-base contact with them, speed 2 will take them out of range of your black dice. Speed 3 will take them out of range of your blue dice, too. Meanwhile, when you move to catch up with them, you're almost always moving into range of their guns. Now, admittedly the CR90's rear arc is basically the safest place you can be in the game, but if you're chasing them at speed 3, they're getting shots off and you aren't.

Of course, that assumes a chase in a vacuum, without obstacles, squadrons, or other ships, all of which complicate matters. But on an infinite featureless plane, a Raider doesn't really want to be chasing a CR90.

Plus CR90s can be faster than the rear arc since they can use Engine techs.

I think the Raider is going to make the CR90 much more important

I actually had the opposite initial reaction--that this will make the CR-90 obsolete. If a CR-90 gets caught on the rear by this thing, it will go down hard (even at close range with Mon Mothma). Rerollable black dice, ACMs, speed 4, brace and evades, Screed synergy...

The trouble with getting behind a CR-90 and shooting them up with a Raider is that you shoot, then move. This makes chasing a ship from directly behind them terribly inefficient. Even if you start out in base-to-base contact with them, speed 2 will take them out of range of your black dice. Speed 3 will take them out of range of your blue dice, too. Meanwhile, when you move to catch up with them, you're almost always moving into range of their guns. Now, admittedly the CR90's rear arc is basically the safest place you can be in the game, but if you're chasing them at speed 3, they're getting shots off and you aren't.

Of course, that assumes a chase in a vacuum, without obstacles, squadrons, or other ships, all of which complicate matters. But on an infinite featureless plane, a Raider doesn't really want to be chasing a CR90.

Plus CR90s can be faster than the rear arc since they can use Engine techs.

Both true.

As you pointed out, this is going to depend on lots more factors than I originally thought. If the ships are running on parallel planes, this will be far more difficult (although this often not the case, since enemy ships usually move into engagements towards each other, either directly or obliquely). With four yaw at speed two, a Raider can basically do a 90 degree turn, so if it comes in perpendicular to where the CR-90 is jumping next, catching it is doable. The Raider II also has a decent compliment of blue dice, so damage can be dealt to a CR-90 even if the Raider isn't up in its grill. And with the real possibility of 5-7 ship imperial lists now, move-and-shoot is possible if the imperial player goes first and activates appropriately. Tractor beams from larger ships are another consideration.

Of course, the real reason you'd want a Raider chasing down a CR-90 is to take it out of the fight--either by forcing it away from its mates (Tantive), away from your primary ships (Dodonna), or into the clutches of your tractor-equipped ISDs/VSDs.

So yeah... "obsolete" was obviously too strong. Cannot wait to get these into the lab.

The firing before moving is definitely one of the most trip-up parts of the strategy, especially for those of us who have played other games such as Warhammer / Warmachine / X-Wing / etc.I'm still constantly trying to get used to that change in strategy.

You don't want to try and chase a Tantive. . . It will be supported, which means likely death

The firing before moving is definitely one of the most trip-up parts of the strategy, especially for those of us who have played other games such as Warhammer / Warmachine / X-Wing / etc.I'm still constantly trying to get used to that change in strategy.

This. Also the reason why I don't necessarily think 8 Raiders or 9 CR90's will be as popular or successful as 8 CR90's.

... plus that is like 200 bucks dude...

If squadrons are engaged by other squadrons, they cannot attack ships. Raider is a ship, therefore squadrons will never attack Raider with Instigator (at distance 1)

True or false?

False. "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship." No squadrons so they can attack the raider still.

They are considered engaged. Not with the Raider but with ghost squadrons. So until they FAQ that, they can't attack ships because a ship can't engage squadrons.

Not true. They must attack engaged squadrons "if possible". Since the ghost squadrons don't exist, it is not possible. Therefore they don't have to attack them, and can attack a ship.

No FAQ needed, wording is very precise.

I do agree a FAQ is not needed because the wording is very precise. So, squadrons "engaged" due this upgrade can't attack a ship or unengaging squadrons unless they have a statement (upgrade or ability) stating they can.

I would think that they mean a squadron must attack whatever it is engaged with before it can do something else, like attack a VSD or ISD or another raider, and thus when engaged with the corvette with this title, they must attack it because it is engaging them. Am I wrong though?

Heh, all we need is a way to give this thing Escort, and we got rhymer covered.

The "if possible" clause will allow Squadrons to still attack Ships even when engaged by the titled Raider.

Though the rules do often boil down to if engaged you can't Attack any enemy Ship with your Squadrons, that is not what the actual rules state. They provide a possible restriction as to where you attack can go, but in this case the restriction clearly can't apply.

If the rules meant to entail that you can never attack an enemy Ship if Engaged, then they would say so. Just like they clearly state that if Engaged you can't move.

No FAQ needed, wording is very precise.

I disagree. If a squadron is within a distance of 1 of a ship with this upgrade it is engaged by 2 squadrons. "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship." It does not state if it is not possible to attack all engaging squadron it may attack a ship. It only allows an "engaged" attacking squadron to attack an engaging squadron, nothing else (ship or unengaging squadron). Another statement is required stating it may attack a ship when it is engaged. Tycho Celchu has such a statement "You are not prevented from moving or attacking ships while you are engaged." There are situations where it is not possible to attack an "engaging" squadron such as an obstruction limiting a squadron's attacking dice. These situations do not then allow the attacking squadron to attack a ship.

I do agree a FAQ is not needed because the wording is very precise. So, squadrons "engaged" due this upgrade can't attack a ship or unengaging squadrons unless they have a statement (upgrade or ability) stating they can.

The wording is VERY precise, as per the RR: "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship." Page 6, 2nd bulletpoint under Engagement. Yes, the squadrons are engaged, but since it's not possible to attack the "ghost squadrons" they then get to attack the ship. There's no FAQ needed.

.An important thing to note is that since there's no mention of LOS from the ship to the squadrons for purposes of engagement, you still engage squadrons at D1, even if they are obstructed in regards to the Instigator.