I played my first game of W:I tonight. We ran into one major rule argument, specifically what exactly defines "a unit entering a zone". The text on The Greatswords is "After a unit enters this zone, The Greatswords gains [power] until the end of the turn."

My opponent played two of this card in his battlefield. I later attacked with 8 units. He believes that my units enter his battlefield zone when attacking, thus he gains 1 power per unit per Greatswords -- 16 in this case. The rules, as best as I could tell, never specified that attacking units enter the defending zone. My interpretation is that if he were to play one or more unit cards or move units from another zone to the battlefield, he would gain 1 power per unit per Greatsword for the rest of that turn, but when I attack, they are only worth the power symbols on the card, whether he played units his previous turn or not.

Any advice would be appreciated.

If any of HIS units enter the zone that contain his Greatswords, either from another zone or played directly from his hand, then the Greatswords get the effect. Your units do not "enter" his battlefield as far as gameplay is concerned. Thematically, your units are invading his territory, but not from a gameplay mechanics point of view.

I agree with the interpretation that it relates to the owning player.

Related question on Great Swords...should they get a +1 power the turn that they come in for themselves entering the zone? The way the card reads, I think that they get the bonus for the turn they enter. Thoughts?

Woz said:

I don't have the rules in front of me, and as stated before I've only played through once, but it seems that any additional cards you play after the Greatswords would add +1 power, but the Greatswords itself would not as that effect was not active until after the card was placed.

I assumed otherwise, that Greatswords DO trigger their own effect on the turn they are played, since the text specifies "After a unit enters this zone.." and therefore must be in play at the trigger point.

You've mistaken the timing of when the effect can be triggered with the triggering event. The Greatswords were not in play when the great swords were put into play. They were in play when the opportunity to take actions/responses came. A very subtle distinction which may or may not have any bearing. Until we get a flow chart it is impossible to determine 100%. In AGoT forced effects are similar to passive effects, and because of how the flow chart works with passives it would be able to trigger of itself. We don't have anything like that in this game and until we do it seems like the prudent ruling is that the card must have been in play when the action that is going to meet its trigger happens... but tat is just a suggestion. The FAQ should clear this up.

We play it as Dormouse has suggested. The Greatswords do not trigger off themselves because at the instant they enter, there is no effect in play.

ChaosChild made a good point with the timing of the arrival of the card… “After the card enters this zone“ seams to denote that the effect rise when the card is in play, because, if it is not in play, it has not enter the zone.

Obviously, this should go to the FAQs…

I would like to add, that the mechanic of Invasion cannot be compared with the mechanic of AGoT, because AGoT is a linear windows structure, while this is a “Last In Last Out” pile sequence game (like versus or magic).

Actually that is not necessarily true. I wouldn't be surprised it that is the way it is when we get a Flowchart, but an argument can be made that your action of putting the unit into play is an action. Your opponent gets to take an action responding to that creating a chain. You get a chance to respond to their action with an action to your. By the time both of you have consecutively passed responding to each others responses do we go back to the original window and have a chance for you to respond to your own action of putting The Greatswords into play or is it too late? Can a unit with an ability respond to a triggering action when it was not in play when the action happened (that is one of the differences between an ability and a tactic effect, the tactic effect can respond to an action even when it is not "in-play" while an ability must be in play)?

I do think the answer will be yes it can, but right now there are arguments on both sides that have some merit.

Currently we are playing that they do not buff themselves the turn that they enter. My speculation is that the FAQ will say that they do...I think the wording leaves it open for that as I believe there are instances where cards specify 'other units'. Also in looking at the power of the Greatswords against the equivalents in the other factions, I think they could use the guaranteed buff.

All sound reasoning. I do expect that to be the end result also, but there is no clear ruling for it at this point and it seems like assuming it doesn't will cause the least amount of hassle in games until there is a clear ruling on it. I would say whatever way your play group decides is probably fine, but should realize that it may be wrong.

I'd definitely like to see this defined better as the rules use the terms 'move' and 'enter play' in specific modes but fail to define both thoroughly.

My opponent and I were in a similar debate last night about the move/enter situation. He had 8 resources available and decided to hop his pistoleers in and out and back into the zone where the Greatswords were, stating each instance of the same card moving into the zone (which he referenced as 'entering' based on this thread) added the +1 to them.

It seemed a bit excessive that the move units mechanic could be manipulated to that degree, so I'd really hope FFG gets us some specifics on this soon.

Does this really need a definition in the rule book? In order for something to move from one room or one city to another it MUST enter that room or city. Same goes with something moving into or being played into a zone. Each time the Pistoliers moved into the zone tgumenthey enetered that zone and they boost the Greatswords.

Is there an argument that someone can make that a cfard can be moved into a zone but never have entered the zone?

Yes, it does. It's a LCG, whose entire rules foundation is based on specific language.

You say a card 'enter that zone' I could just as easily say it 'moves into that zone' as the only time I see 'enters' in the rulebook is when it's attached to 'play'.

I'm not trying to start some anal CCG rules debate, but the game does use specific language, and the terms 'move' and 'enter' are used in the rules and on the cards to denote a type of action in the game. If FFG could have included a glossary of rule terms problem would have been solved. As it is, although the game is fairly intuitive the mechanic in this case seems open to abuse ('move' = 'enter') with some card combinations. I'll be happy with whatever they put into the FAQ, but I'm not convinced beyond a doubt...yet.

keltheos said:

But if move = enter, then by that definition, Units played from hand wouldn't count?

Okay, if common sense, normal parlance, a dictionary, and agreement by what appears to be most of the posters is not enough, then save us all the trouble of trying to explain it and just send the question to Nate.

Thanks for the coureous reply.

I guess you guys haven't played enough CCGs to see how 'common sense, normal practice, and a dictionary' don't always apply to game rules. Knowing FFG's penchant for their rules having errors and FAQs to come (hey, I'm a fan, but it's a fact) I'd like to have seen 'move' and 'enter' defined a bit more clearly in the rulebook. Again, not saying that isn't the way to do it, but would definitely appreciate a better definition.

@Dam, assuming Dormouse's so courteous definitions of the term are correct, no. Since they to actually say 'enter play' in the rules when it pertains to a card coming in from hand then the 'enters' the zone would be satisfied by 'enters play'.

I'm sorry you don't like the "tone" in which I typed my first question, but that was an honest query. As to my our experience with CCG's, I've been playing since Alpha Magic. I've played numerous other games (including both of the other LCG's) and what I discovered is that when common sense, normal parlance, a dictionary, and agreement by what appears to be most of the posters of a forum all say the same thing there is a better than even chance that is the way to go. If you know what all the above say I just don't understand why you'd even bother to post the question instead of just sending it to the developer. Send it to Nate. Come back and let us know what the verdict is.

Well, up until you guys indicated there was a way to reach the rules team and I hunted down the tiny print at the bottom of the pages for the link I had no idea they were even entertaining rules questions. I've done so.

I enjoy some good old fashioned debate on rules that can and are questionable and could be open to interpretation. If I came off a bit harsh it was because I read your comments as brusque and dismissive (which surprised me as your replies in other topics have always been polite and conversational), glad to read they weren't intended that way.

I'll definitely post when I hear from them (fingers crossed). I'm fairly convinced it will go the way of this thread, but I'd rather have a definitive if we can get one.

Ah. Yeah, I rarely intend to come off as impolite, though admittedly when I'm trying to be precise with my language I can forget the pleasantries when addressing rules questions. Good luck with the response from Nate, he tends to answer questions in batches so it could be tomorrow or it could be a week or two.

After Greatswords is played, the forced action is in play. It is not retroactive. Once the unit is played then the forced action will apply to units entering the zone. The forced action cannot apply to the TG unit for being played in the zone because the rule must first be established by playing TG before the forced rule from the card can be applied. There is no Forced rule when TG enteres the zone.

dormouse said:

Hey, as long as he answers I'm happy.

dormouse said:

In a game where "redirected" damage isn't "assigned", I prefer not to rely on common sense, normal parlance, and the other things you mentioned.

Good news (for Destruction players) is that, as the Greatswords gets their bonus for moving units, moving units become corrupted when going in a zone with some Warpstone Excavation .