Big Ships: Not the fix we were looking for

With the new rules for big ships, I have to say I am displeased. The meta has had a big ship problem for a while now, and something had to be done, I won’t disagree with that. But this new scenario basically makes ¼ of the playable ships downright abysmal. Let’s look at some numbers to see how this affects the meta.

Scenario 1

Brobots Vs. Corran Dash

This is a normal tournament matchup that happens all the time. Both have at least 1 big ship. Both have been tested thoroughly.

Outcome A- Brobot 1 loses all shields other Brobot loses 3 shields at end of round. Dash loses all shields, Corran’s health irrelevant(if not blown up). No ships destroyed, but since Dash is worth 58 points, the opponent gets 29 points “destroyed” and Dash gets 25 destroyed. Brobots get a modified win because of 1 shield.

Outcome B- Brobot 1 and 2 have 1 shield left, Dash has no shields left. Again no ships destroyed, but Brobots get a victory.

Outcome C- Both Brobots lose all shields, Dash has 1 shield left. No ships destroyed, but Dash wins.

Scenario 2

Twin Laser Y’s Vs. Dash and Chewie

Outcome A- 1 Y wing destroyed, others with various damage. Dash has no shields, Chewie below half health. Y wings win even though they didn’t destroy a ship.

Outcome B- 2 Y wings destroyed, Dash destroyed and Chewie below half health. Y wings win.

Outcome C- 3 Y wings destroyed, Dash destroyed and Chewie below half health. Y wings get modified win.

Scenario 3

Dash Corran Vs. Soontir, Carnor and Turr

Outcome A- Dash at half health, Corran alive. All interceptors at 1 health. Interceptors win

Outcome B- Dash at half health, Corran alive. 1 interceptor dead. Dash gets modified win.

Scenario 4

Brobots Vs. Twin laser Y’s

Outcome A- Brobot 1 at half health, 2 with 1 shield. 1 Y wing destroyed. Draw.

Outcome B- Brobot 1 and 2 at half health. 2 Y wings destroyed. Draw.

Outcome C- Brobot 1 and 2 at half health. 1 Y wing destroyed. Y’s win.

It goes on and on. Many more scenarios, with many more outcomes. They all say the same thing, This is not the fix we were looking for. Big ships cost more points, so that they have a good value in point vaulting. This new rules change doesn’t affect super Corran, which costs 42-48 points, but it affects Vader shuttle, brobots, Outer rim smugglers, and every other big ship. This will lead to 2 things: Run and gun scenarios, and regen lists. Both are viable strategies, but then when those take over, do those get nerfed too? Either the half point rule needs to affect ALL ships, or we need to find another fix.

I will end here saying that I love X-Wing, and will be attending Worlds this year. I have been flying Chewie Dash for about 8 months, while recently testing Y swarm and Accurate Tie Advanced. All of these were strong choices for my list, but looking at this new change, I believe that Chewie Dash will not be viable. As I stated before, there is a big ship problem, but this is not the fix we were looking for.

Corran80

Fly Casual

The running theme throughout all of your examples is how ridiculously contrived they are. The Dash/Corran v BroBots examples are particularly bad. I refuse to believe there is a Dash/Corran player out there so incompetent as to do significant damage to one Bot before switching targets to the other one, and then failing to do anything more than scratch that one before time runs out. Scenario 2 is also a classic: who in their right mind plays dual turrets and then fails to focus down even one target? In all of these scenarios, the people on the rough end are there entirely of their volition.

Big ships are still quite viable, and will still rack up the wins. You just won't be getting easy-mode 100-0 wins any more and the small ship lists will have a shot at competing with you in MoV. That is very much the change we were looking for.

What you also fail to mention is how many people (truely) fly 1 Big/1 Small or 2 Big ship lists. Yes, quite a few are out there, but right now there are far to many small ship lists to mention (y w/TLT, 4bz, Vader/Soontir, Miranda/Corran, Swarms) That it won't effect to many builds. Also, and lets be honest, if you know what you are doing as a player flying Han/Corran this ruling won't affect you at all. If you are a competent pilot you know how to get those 100-0 wins. Now, though, it will be closer to 100-30 or so. Just kill your opponent.

Finally, this makes people WANT to fight instead of flying in circles.....

The running theme throughout all of your examples is how ridiculously contrived they are.

The other running theme is that, in every case, the new rule results in the game's score more closely describing the actual state of the game. Just taking Scenario A from Brobots vs Corran/Dash: it's a close match, but the Brobots managed to pin Dash down and start doing damage while simultaneously minimizing their own exposure to fire even though they're facing Dash's turret and Corran's hyper-maneuverable, high-PS double tap.

That sounds like a narrow win for the Brobots, rather than a 0-0 draw, and now the game actually reflects that.

Last night, I played a Scum mini-swarm list against two IG-2000s. The match ended to time and my opponent destroyed 74 points. I reduced his total hit points by half on both IG-2000s. If I'm reading the new tournament rules correctly I lost but earned 49 half points. Assuming my math is right, he gets a win with a MoV of 125 (versus 174 under old rules) while I receive a loss with a MoV of 75. Is that right?

I'm also a Dash/Chewie player.

I went 6-0 during swiss in the Nordics (National for the Nordic countries) and as long as you can win the new MoV won't matter.

I had receievd a way lower MoV with the new rules but no time had I lost a game due to it. The only close one would have been against dual IGs were I only killed one and Chewie had taken a beating, still it would have been a full win.

The new TLTs are way more scarry than the half-kill MoV points.

Last night, I played a Scum mini-swarm list against two IG-2000s. The match ended to time and my opponent destroyed 74 points. I reduced his total hit points by half on both IG-2000s. If I'm reading the new tournament rules correctly I lost but earned 49 half points. Assuming my math is right, he gets a win with a MoV of 125 (versus 174 under old rules) while I receive a loss with a MoV of 75. Is that right?

That is correct, assuming you calculated your 49 points correctly.

Last night, I played a Scum mini-swarm list against two IG-2000s. The match ended to time and my opponent destroyed 74 points. I reduced his total hit points by half on both IG-2000s. If I'm reading the new tournament rules correctly I lost but earned 49 half points. Assuming my math is right, he gets a win with a MoV of 125 (versus 174 under old rules) while I receive a loss with a MoV of 75. Is that right?

That is correct, assuming you calculated your 49 points correctly.

Yep, my opponent had a 51-point IG-88B and a 49-point IG-88C...so 25+24 = 49 points.

Here's what's really interesting. If my final attack had landed a single hit on IG-88B, it would have destroyed that ship earning me 75 points. In that situation I would have gotten a modified match win (75-74) with a MoV of 101 while my opponent would have lost with a MoV of 99. That's really what makes this change so intriguing.

These rules give results closer to reality than the old rules. They're not perfect and there are still cutoff points, but they are less severe.

Hey here is an idea, in 75 minutes how about you just kill all the ships and you win! This new ruling doesn't punish the players who can win games but it does punish those who would rather spend the last 20 minutes of a game running the clock out. Only corran or soontir left to kill with your dash or ig? Maybe you should go kill it rather than **** around until time.

I just want to make sure I am fully understanding how this works.

the new rule only effects games that go to time and the MOV of loser in games that don't, right? For a game that doesn't go to time, this has no effect at all on the winner's score?

I just want to make sure I am fully understanding how this works.

the new rule only effects games that go to time and the MOV of loser in games that don't, right? For a game that doesn't go to time, this has no effect at all on the winner's score?

The large ship half-point rule should apply at the end to all matches. If you table your opponent you'll receive a win but the MOV might be less than in the past, dependent upon how much damage was inflicted on your large ship(s).

Matches that go to time open the door for more draws, modified match wins and even an occasional loss (if the stars align) if running a large ship. Simply running away at the end of a match with a wounded large ship until time is called may not be a viable option. The change seems aimed at the 2-ship build meta of the past few months.

I've been through the results of the Australian nationals and while I don't have every results (health wise), I do have the lists, the final scores based on old scoring and several player discussions of their matches.

Based on this.

No game would have had a different winner.

The top 8 would have been the same bar 1 player movement (one player would have moved up 2-3 places, pushing those people down 1)

the 5-1 player who missed cut, would still have missed cut.

Therefore the Top 8 would only have changed slightly in match-ups, and not actually in people who were there.

The top 16 is interesting. The bottom of the 4-2s (all missing the cut) were mostly the 4+ ship small base players who went 4-2. With this change, you actually have is small ships and big ships both appearing in about the right proportions based on the whole of the 4-2 cut.

anecdotal evidence based on this 1 tournament (a large tournament at that) would suggest this is exactly the fix we're looking for.

So let's say your Chewie Dash list is facing a classic: 8x APs. Your opponent turns out the be the best player on the planet and drops both of your ships to 1 health while you only manage to destroy 1 tie (is the margin >12 or >=12? no matter, you guys get my point). Can you honestly say that you deserve the win?

It's not perfect, but it's a start.

So let's say your Chewie Dash list is facing a classic: 8x APs. Your opponent turns out the be the best player on the planet and drops both of your ships to 1 health while you only manage to destroy 1 tie (is the margin >12 or >=12? no matter, you guys get my point). Can you honestly say that you deserve the win?

It's not perfect, but it's a start.

Is chewie more expensive than 48 points? Then yes.

I'm struggling to see how any of those are bad scenarios. They're all closer to perfect partial scoring: I'm not seeing how the old way in any of the situations is a better approximation to untimed.

The tiebreaker is designed to approximate what would have happened had the clock not run out.

the new rule only effects games that go to time and the MOV of loser in games that don't, right? For a game that doesn't go to time, this has no effect at all on the winner's score?

Theoretically it affects all games: you score half the points for killing a large ship when you half kill it, lessening the disadvantage of having more ships by making a large effectively play as two smalls scorewise and MoVwise.

In practice, however, it only affects MoV.

Take the following scenario:

A naked Patrol Leader and a StarViper are the last two ships on the board. The Patrol Leader scores a kills the StarViper and wins.

• The Imperial scores 100 points (full squad kill) and the StarViper 60 (for everything that wasn't the Patrol Leader). The Imperial wins by 40 points and scores a full win. MoV Imperial-Opponent is 140-60.

Now take the scenario again, with the Patrol Leader on half health. The Patrol Leader scores its kill shot, kills the StarViper and wins.

• Under the new rules, half a large ship is worth half points, so the scores are 100 for the Imperial and 80 for the opponent. The MoV is then 120-80. However, the outcome is unchanged: Winning by 20 points is still a Full Win.

There is only one situation in which this ruling can affect Full Win versus Modified Win in an untimed game, which is if the winner's last remaining ship is a sole Lambda-class Shuttle at half health with under 3 points of upgrades. The score then is 100 - 90 or 100 - 89, resulting in a Modified Win. Outside of this one scenario the closest possible score for a completed game is 100 - 88, which is a Full Win.

EDIT: As later pointed out, in terms of if you score a Win or a Modified Win, tabling the opponent always results in a Win. Modified Wins only exist if the clock runs out: you still score a full win even though your score difference is under 12.

MoV is affected in all games.

nice point about the full win and shuttle blue 5.

What is this "Full Win" I keep hearing people talk about? The tournament rules only have "Win" and "Modified Win." If you have destroyed all of your opponents ships at the end of a round and have at least one ship still on table, you get a win, which is worth 5 points. Modified wins only happen in timed games. In the case of the half health shuttle being the last ship on the board, it's still a win, worth 5 points.

I can't believe people who are saying this "isn't the rule they are looking for." Maybe it doesn't go nearly as far as some would have like it where EVERY SINGLE shield token lost and damage card gained awarded points. It THAT what people were looking for? This is a much simplified version of that and even now appears to be causing confusion to some.

What is this "Full Win" I keep hearing people talk about? The tournament rules only have "Win" and "Modified Win." If you have destroyed all of your opponents ships at the end of a round and have at least one ship still on table, you get a win, which is worth 5 points. Modified wins only happen in timed games. In the case of the half health shuttle being the last ship on the board, it's still a win, worth 5 points.

Fairly sure I picked the term up off of one of Juggler's posts. Synonymous with Win, just makes it clear it's an outright one rather than a modified one. A Modified Win may not be a Win but it is a win, so the clarity is helpful.

The tournament rules lack that clarity.

Nevertheless, you are correct: the Lambda indeed scores a 5 pt win, ironing out that wrinkle in the ruling.

Well... there is one victor of new big ship rules - Empire - as their small ship, arc dodgers lists are the best.