With all the problems about Spider as a faction or Shadowlands Taint and the evil it represents, I guess we should talk directly about it and not always just touch it but not completely adress the core of it. I would say taint has three major aspcets to it. The aspect of the card game, the aspect of the RPG mechanics, and the story aspect.

Taint in the CCG/LCG

Shadowlands has been for a long time either a faction indicator or an unloaded keyword. The faction aspect was dropped in favour of the Spider Clan, which I think was a good thing, since thus the game could be more streamlined, and we had no longer one faction that every dishonour deck basically had an automatical loss againt. So, it had been too unbalanced back then. Now, Taint should remain a part of the game, even with the reboot by Fantasy Flight, and it should remain an unloaded keyword. I think there should be Taint token or such things, so that it becomes possible to tain the peeps and then play cards that require a tainted person to perform them. Basically it should become a combo playstyle thing, and of course there should be option to harm tained peeps. Or many cards could just have improved effects when performed by someone tainted. And sure, the spider could still come with the most personalities that start the game already tainted, but it should not be their unique feature.

Taint in the RPG

Taint was mostly a condition on how to lose your character. It was meant as element of horror, but I think most often it was just an annoyance, since it was mostly something the GM could use to break a character concept and rarely something that actually lead to an interesting story. Since, lets be honest here, it mostly reduces player agency and so if the player expects an epic game, but then gets just to play a tradegy, it will become an issue. And in my experience far to few GMs are transparent enough to tell the players in advance what kind of game they want to make. With the approach that one can only become tainted if one wants to, the game could suddenly be about how far is a character willing to go for the goals, and thus one could use it for samurai drama, where the samurai sacrifices his soul to eternal damnation to perform the duty to the clan or empire, that is the kind of stories that have the epic feel to it and do not remove player agency.

Taint in Stories

Taint was always about horror. I think L5R has been very much influences by the Werewolf game from White Wolf (not just with using ten sided dice in a pool system, or having Honour and Glory on the character sheet, but also when it comes to taint) and so the Shadowlands Taint started out pretty much as a Wyrm Taint version for L5R, including the body horror and the connection to some cosmic evil. One had the obvious threats that were for open combat and the invisible threats that have been corrupted and could be a problem for the society since they could cause issues from within. Basically, you the films of Alien and Aliens, with a little spice of Lovecraft. But over time the stories tried to make the tainted character not just zombies to be slaughtered by give them personality too, and thus we eventually got the Lost that have not just been running amok, but were tradic figures. Thus the focus shifted from the outside horror more to the spirtual and personal horror. But it feels like the story team never could make the full transition, and thus instead of delivering the Spider as a clan that is struggling with keeping their humanity, they still framed them as the outside force that is to be fought.

So, with a restart of L5R in new hands, I think we really should start to re-evaluating the things L5R has and what purpose they should have. And that means maybe making the transition to a different understanding of the element in the game to get stronger thematic stories out of it. What do you think?

I've always appreciated the Taint as the true darkness in the setting. The Shadowlands Horde is the visible face of evil, sure, but the Taint itself is subtle, subversive, and IMO captures a more Japanese-folklore flavor of horror because of it. I would like to point out, though, that since the release of the 4th Edition RPG, the Taint has been transformed into what you're suggesting, where a character must ask for its influence in order to become Tainted. FFG could mention this as an option in the GM's section of the rulebook. Personally I think it's a much stronger storytelling device if it's something that can't be chosen or controlled, but I can see where it could be problematic for some groups.

Taint in the CCG/LCG

Shadowlands has been for a long time either a faction indicator or an unloaded keyword. The faction aspect was dropped in favour of the Spider Clan, which I think was a good thing, since thus the game could be more streamlined, and we had no longer one faction that every dishonour deck basically had an automatical loss againt. So, it had been too unbalanced back then. Now, Taint should remain a part of the game, even with the reboot by Fantasy Flight, and it should remain an unloaded keyword. I think there should be Taint token or such things, so that it becomes possible to tain the peeps and then play cards that require a tainted person to perform them. Basically it should become a combo playstyle thing, and of course there should be option to harm tained peeps. Or many cards could just have improved effects when performed by someone tainted. And sure, the spider could still come with the most personalities that start the game already tainted, but it should not be their unique feature.

Tokens might be a little much, but I could certainly see attachments that, potentially in addition to other effects, taint you. Some would be beneficial, and be intended to play on your own characters in that sort of deck, some would be negative -- perhaps it's enough to simply taint the character and nothing else to open him up to combos, but it's probably best if the tainting card also had some minor text effect in addition to simply tainting the target.

Tokens (in FFG games) are generally reserved for fairly universal effects. Exhausting, damage, that sort of thing. Stuff that every player and deck will have cause to use in every game.

I always preferred a taint that would seep into the pores and get under your skin. I hated the pact with Iweko. It completely took the teeth out of the taint and turned it into super juice.

Bring back characters like Tsuke and Tadaka. Like Shoju and Junzo. Like Ryozu and Kitao.

The taint should be something that happens for a variety of reasons - hubris, carlessness, lust for power, bad luck... even because of honor. An honorable samurai could find themselves in a position to get tainted simply by taking the most honorable path in front of them. Some of the most tragic and amazing stories were of samurai who found themselves tainted through no fault of their own, and still managed to rise to greatness - on either side of the wall.

I always preferred a taint that would seep into the pores and get under your skin. I hated the pact with Iweko. It completely took the teeth out of the taint and turned it into super juice.

Whenever I GM in the official storyline (as opposed to creating my own alternate timeline), I like to interpret the bargain with Iweko to the letter, that those in service to Iweko may resist the Taint. So if you ever defy the crown, or something happens to the Iweko Dynasty, all bets are off, and the Taint resumes its previous nature.

Taint in RPG was badly designed. The fact that even one level of Taint made you a pariah in eyes of Empire, someone who was supposed to retire and spend rest of their lives in isolation, turned it into pretty much "instant death" condition effect. Your character failed that Earth Roll and passed the threshold for 0 Rank Taint? Welp, time to retire the character, it's pretty much unplayable.

Which, in turn, made using Taint and Tainted threats unattractive for GM - if I can't use these tools and dangers to the fullest extent, because one failure on account of the players will eliminate their characters, I can't utilize them to the fullest. Players will feel that I'm softballing them, and I will be annoyed by wasted potential. There is no point in introducing something that can never "hit" the character - sword hits are scary, because they can possibly cripple you, but are not guaranteed instant death. Being dropped to down and healed up later is shameful, but won't make your character dead in the eyes of Empire. You can "fail" combat scenario and survive; you can't "survive" being Tainted without reducing Taint's image of pemanence.

It's like those bosses in video games where if they touch you once, you restart the whole boss sequence; massive damage attacks that can be dodged are fun and exciting, random instant death attacks are annoying.

Fix that by either giving a way to scrap down the Taint that is accessible to PCs (but probably never beyond their current Taint Rank), or by fixing the setting and making characters with lower levels of Taint still playable without being sent to the Damned barracks. Make them pariahs, people who are distrusted, guys and girls who are forced to wear marked clothing and are always accussed when something bad happens nearby - anything beyond "character has Taint 1.0, beheading or retirement, either way, bring me new character sheet next week."

Taint in the CCG/LCG

Shadowlands has been for a long time either a faction indicator or an unloaded keyword. The faction aspect was dropped in favour of the Spider Clan, which I think was a good thing, since thus the game could be more streamlined, and we had no longer one faction that every dishonour deck basically had an automatical loss againt. So, it had been too unbalanced back then. Now, Taint should remain a part of the game, even with the reboot by Fantasy Flight, and it should remain an unloaded keyword. I think there should be Taint token or such things, so that it becomes possible to tain the peeps and then play cards that require a tainted person to perform them. Basically it should become a combo playstyle thing, and of course there should be option to harm tained peeps. Or many cards could just have improved effects when performed by someone tainted. And sure, the spider could still come with the most personalities that start the game already tainted, but it should not be their unique feature.

Tokens might be a little much, but I could certainly see attachments that, potentially in addition to other effects, taint you. Some would be beneficial, and be intended to play on your own characters in that sort of deck, some would be negative -- perhaps it's enough to simply taint the character and nothing else to open him up to combos, but it's probably best if the tainting card also had some minor text effect in addition to simply tainting the target.

Tokens (in FFG games) are generally reserved for fairly universal effects. Exhausting, damage, that sort of thing. Stuff that every player and deck will have cause to use in every game.

Mechanically, I'd like the taint to be something that was a regularly presented choice. A way to empower certain abilities or achieve short term goals, but at a potential mid or long term cost. I don't know exactly what it would look like, but I was reading Justin Walsh's interview recounting of his win against the Lying Darkness, and I found it fascinating what his thought process was.

He was playing the dragons out of the Phoenix box that let you pump your gold, but permanently corrupted the personality. He made a conscious and deliberate effort to never use that ability to buy the elemental dragons. Until the last game that is. He had an upper edge against an opponent that would have likely beat him under other circumstances. He looked at his stronghold, then at the dragon, and corrupted it. The rest is game history.

Obviously the power levels in that arc were in a whole different realm, but the point is that it was a mechanical choice with storyline implications and that Justin made, and it's one that could have backfired on him. In fact in other rounds it did backfire on him occasionally (spoiler: he recovered).

Taint in RPG was badly designed. The fact that even one level of Taint made you a pariah in eyes of Empire, someone who was supposed to retire and spend rest of their lives in isolation, turned it into pretty much "instant death" condition effect. Your character failed that Earth Roll and passed the threshold for 0 Rank Taint? Welp, time to retire the character, it's pretty much unplayable.

To me, this is the sign of not being creative enough about ways to continue playing the character, whether on the part of the player or GM (who should be helping).

In the wider sense, I think it's the case that many elements of the L5R setting -- indeed any roleplaying game -- are not *really* intended for use in every campaign. I mean, sure, they're there, but it's always up to the GM and players to decide what kind of game they want to play. If it's a Wall campaign? Great, knock yourself out, take a little taint, be a doomed hero.

A Winter Court campaign in the Honored Palaces of the Daidoji? Not so much with the taint, maybe.

In 4th Edition RPG, it was represented by innate "Tap into the Taint" ability everyone with Taint Rank +1 had. It wasn't a mutation, it wasn't a Shadowlands Power, it was something akin to spending a Void Point - on physical rolls, you could gain 1 point of Taint in order to empower your roll by adding +1k1 to it.

Best part about it was that it was explicitly mentioned that character doesn't have to know she is tapping into the Taint, will not know that she literally traded Taint for power, and will probably think she just pushed herself to the glory.

It was also pretty much only way for Taint Rank 1 character (outside of Maho) to get to Rank 2 of Taint - periodic Earth Rolls TNs to gain passive Taint for Rank 1 were so pathetic, that pretty much anyone who cared enough to Void Point it was safe from passive gains. So you either got Tainted by outside forces, or willingly (as a player, not necessarily character) worked your way up to the Taint Rank 2.

To me, this is the sign of not being creative enough about ways to continue playing the character, whether on the part of the player or GM (who should be helping).

Mechanically, I'd like the taint to be something that was a regularly presented choice. A way to empower certain abilities or achieve short term goals, but at a potential mid or long term cost.

Sure. I mean, I imagine we'll get a little from column a and a little from column b. Either way, I think it'll come from specific cards, not be a general game effect that requires tokens.

Taint in RPG was badly designed. The fact that even one level of Taint made you a pariah in eyes of Empire, someone who was supposed to retire and spend rest of their lives in isolation, turned it into pretty much "instant death" condition effect. Your character failed that Earth Roll and passed the threshold for 0 Rank Taint? Welp, time to retire the character, it's pretty much unplayable.

To me, this is the sign of not being creative enough about ways to continue playing the character, whether on the part of the player or GM (who should be helping).

In the wider sense, I think it's the case that many elements of the L5R setting -- indeed any roleplaying game -- are not *really* intended for use in every campaign. I mean, sure, they're there, but it's always up to the GM and players to decide what kind of game they want to play. If it's a Wall campaign? Great, knock yourself out, take a little taint, be a doomed hero.

A Winter Court campaign in the Honored Palaces of the Daidoji? Not so much with the taint, maybe.

Yep! How many times in the story was so-and-so tainted and went to great lengths to hide it? Almost always with disastrous results. There was a huge stigma, but it isn't like everyone you met automatically knew.

Yep! How many times in the story was so-and-so tainted and went to great lengths to hide it? Almost always with disastrous results. There was a huge stigma, but it isn't like everyone you met automatically knew.

Let's not forget about the serving girl in every Shadowlands introduction ever who was secretly a Bloodspeaker but nobody knew it.

Yep! How many times in the story was so-and-so tainted and went to great lengths to hide it? Almost always with disastrous results. There was a huge stigma, but it isn't like everyone you met automatically knew.

Let's not forget about the serving girl in every Shadowlands introduction ever who was secretly a Bloodspeaker but nobody knew it.

Hahaha! Yeah. I've played with some unimaginative GMs before. Heck, I've been an unimaginative player before, I just didn't realize it at the time.

We haven't had literally a single character on our table that would be willing to commit the crime of harboring and hiding the Taint. It's literally one of worst crimes you can commit in the Empire, so it's kinda like assuming that your characters will willingly assassinate and poison people who might have blackmail on them or kill their daimyos.

Point is that there is no setting-accepted way to continue playing such character - either you are betraying the Empire and harboring the Taint (which will probably clash with pretty much anyone of Honor higher than 2), or you are following the rules by handing yourself to authorities, who tell you to spend rest of your life living in your home and not moving anywhere. Which is the most logical and most in-character option for many; especially remembering that this way you are also saving yourself from becoming a slave to Jigoku (cuz you are not risking becoming Lost).

In RPG, you started passively spreading Taint at quite late Rank. To make these options actually playable and allow Taint-threats to have some actual teeth, put the point of no return at Taint Rank 3 or 4 - this way you can *actually play* the character who got accidentally Tainted and her life got turned upside down, without becoming a criminal or doing nothing at retirement house.

I always found with some tampering it was quite easy to keep Tainted characters playable. Especially after the Spider got into the game (even before their acceptance), it was the norm in at least a few games I saw and/or took part in.

But well, ymmv!

That is kind of the thing with Taint. Your an infected victim if by accident. Your more dangerous than the guy with leprosy. Besides, aren't you actually talking about Stage 3? Where they kill you on sight?

This is what being a person with Stage 1 Taint is like:

This level of taint had no mental symptoms, and little danger of spreading the taint to others. The Kuni rarely punished anyone at this stage. They were checked on monthly to see if they have progressed to another level. The person was not allowed to marry without informing the prospective spouse and family. Any violation of this protocol was considered a "mental symptom", which was ground for execution. The taint as this stage would mainfest itself in the form of nightmares. Physically the person would be prone to nausea, vomiting and uncontrolled trembling. They might start mumbling to themselves, without even realizing it.

Even Stage 2 isn't drastic, it basically gave you the chance to joined The Damned which is very similar to the Lion's Deathseekers and which was supervised by the Kuni Witch Hunters. Its when you hit Stage 3 that the Witch Hunters will kill you on sight and you are seen as a threat in the public's eye and are too dangerous to keep alive.

We haven't had literally a single character on our table that would be willing to commit the crime of harboring and hiding the Taint. It's literally one of worst crimes you can commit in the Empire, so it's kinda like assuming that your characters will willingly assassinate and poison people who might have blackmail on them or kill their daimyos.

Point is that there is no setting-accepted way to continue playing such character - either you are betraying the Empire and harboring the Taint (which will probably clash with pretty much anyone of Honor higher than 2), or you are following the rules by handing yourself to authorities, who tell you to spend rest of your life living in your home and not moving anywhere. Which is the most logical and most in-character option for many; especially remembering that this way you are also saving yourself from becoming a slave to Jigoku (cuz you are not risking becoming Lost).

In RPG, you started passively spreading Taint at quite late Rank. To make these options actually playable and allow Taint-threats to have some actual teeth, put the point of no return at Taint Rank 3 or 4 - this way you can *actually play* the character who got accidentally Tainted and her life got turned upside down, without becoming a criminal or doing nothing at retirement house.

That's strange to me. There are tons of examples from the story of tainted characters doing everything in their power to retain their honor. A whole faction of the Lion chose to stand by the Emperor to maintain their honor, even when the risk of the taint was imminent. Flawed characters are the most fun to roleplay, and the taint is a pretty serious flaw. There are a host of ways you could handle a curve ball like that, one of which is to try to go out in a blaze of glory.

Of course this is coming from the guy who had his character commit seppuku in a game to put a rival player's character in an awkward spot... so there's that.

I had a Yasuki Crab character with Stage 1 Taint who sailed out of Rokugan and ventured out into the colonies and go tomb raiding. I rolled up a new character for the sake of the party, yes, but I would do 1 on 1 sessions with my GM where I got a chance to roleplay my tainted character in such a predicament. Its actually very fun to try and roleplay a character with a flaw as it gives you as a player a sense of direction and how to roleplay. The biggest issue for players in my experience is ones without a flaw as they tend to lack a general sense of direction.

Being Tainted wasn't a crime. The crime was hiding it.

We haven't had literally a single character on our table that would be willing to commit the crime of harboring and hiding the Taint. It's literally one of worst crimes you can commit in the Empire, so it's kinda like assuming that your characters will willingly assassinate and poison people who might have blackmail on them or kill their daimyos.

Point is that there is no setting-accepted way to continue playing such character - either you are betraying the Empire and harboring the Taint (which will probably clash with pretty much anyone of Honor higher than 2), or you are following the rules by handing yourself to authorities, who tell you to spend rest of your life living in your home and not moving anywhere. Which is the most logical and most in-character option for many; especially remembering that this way you are also saving yourself from becoming a slave to Jigoku (cuz you are not risking becoming Lost).

In RPG, you started passively spreading Taint at quite late Rank. To make these options actually playable and allow Taint-threats to have some actual teeth, put the point of no return at Taint Rank 3 or 4 - this way you can *actually play* the character who got accidentally Tainted and her life got turned upside down, without becoming a criminal or doing nothing at retirement house.

Umm..how do your characters become aware that they have the taint? Low ranks of taint are only noticable by those who are trained to notice it.

It is up to the GM how long it takes for the taint to spread as it is entirely open to interpretation. It wouldnt be inconceivable for a character to start on 0.1 and finish the game at 0.9.

There are plenty scenarios where a tainted character can continue on a game with taint. 1) their daimyo refuses them seppukku. 2) they look for a cure. 3)They are utterly oblivious about having it. 4)Serve at the wall. 5)They have a duty or mission to fulfill.

When I came back to the game at start of ivory after a few years, the taint being removed was bizarre to me. I feel like the threat of the taint played a large role in the storyline of rokugan lost a lot of it's teeth.

Being Tainted wasn't a crime. The crime was hiding it.

Well, there's de jure crime, and de facto crime. Being tainted is the latter, which is why doing the former -- hiding it -- is such a temptation.

Being Tainted wasn't a crime. The crime was hiding it.

That's what I love about L5R. What is more dishonorable - failing to disclose your taint or failing to uphold whatever duty you've taken on and sworn to complete. That's the stuff good roleplaying is made of.

When I came back to the game at start of ivory after a few years, the taint being removed was bizarre to me. I feel like the threat of the taint played a large role in the storyline of rokugan lost a lot of it's teeth.

Now the Crab have nothing to fear except death. Given how monstrously strong they are to begin with, I doubt any of them would willingly accept Taint to improve their oni-slaying abilities.

EDIT: Yeah, 'swhat I get for trying to selectively quote from my phone. :/

I come down on this side of the fence for the CCG: The taint is simplest to handle as an unloaded keyword that triggers a few cards.

As for the RPG, suspicion of the taint means you're going to get visits to check on your progress forever, but doesn't condemn anyone. The severe overreaction to the taint is part of Rokugan's flavor of widespread ignorance. It's a dirty subject, so nobody wants to be associated with it, so they wallow in their ignorance and lash out at anything attached to it. Pretty standard feudal reaction. PC's commit crimes all the time, it's just that concealing the taint is like secretly having the bubonic plague, SARS, and herpes at the same time... for all the average Rokugani know.

4e didn't just make the taint an optional thing, but utterly removed the threat of it. Statistically, most characters with an Earth of 3 (most PC bushi that ever expect to see a combat) that start with a taint of 0.5 will retire before the taint will make it to 1.0 because the TN creep was removed. When the resistance roll increased in TN by 1 every time you passed it, then it was most definitely a death sentence. Right now, it's like the chicken pox - someday you might break out in shingles, but you'll probably be fine.

It depends a lot on how the GM flavors their game. Is honor the default? Then the honorable path is expected. Is it more humanistic and less idealized and romanticized? Then enjoy the tragedy of the downward spiral, assuming you're playing with rules that even threaten it. I prefer Ye Olden Taint, where it inevitably consumed the victim, but with the later rules for slowing its inexorable TN march to impossible levels through meditation and purity of action.

When it comes to the RPG, nothing (other than perhaps the playerbase) has been mishandled more than the Shadowlands Taint.

In 1st and 2nd Edition, the taint was a spiritual malady. It corrupted your soul and the emphasis was placed on how it made you spiritually unclean. While physical symptoms did happen, your symtpoms could just as easily be something mental from day 1. Really, it was whatever would allow Fu Leng to make the most use out of you. Also, it was subtle. Sure, someone may end up with plague-seeping boils. But another person might just, on occasion, look in the general direction of the Shadowlands and smile.

All of this allowed the taint to be insidious. It could corrupt quietly. Others, most likely, wouldn't know you have it. More often than not, you wouldn't know you have it. Seriously? Who's going to start having nightmares and immediately assume taint? This is how you could have even Crab samurai turn out to be tainted without anyone noticing.

Also, the fact that the taint was tied to Fu Leng's will made it intelligent. If you were someone who'd freak out (understandably) and run to the nearest Witch Hunter, your symptoms could be subtle and slow. If you're someone who would do anything to serve his/her clan, they may very well come across as occasional, little benefits. And if you're someone sleazy who just wants power, then they may just give it to you.

Lastly, the taint carried with it a level of insanity that served a dual purpose. Firstly, it gave the tainted individual something new/different to roleplay. Secondly, it allowed justification for a person with the taint, even an honorable one, to attempt to stay a part of samurai culture. Insane people don't accept that they're insane, after all. And samurai, even the most honorable ones, are people. They go through moments of denial and struggle just like anyone else.

3rd Edition changed all of that. The taint became more of a physical disease, very akin to a magical STD. Get bit by a goblin or swap spit with a corrupted geisha? Taint. But don't worry- until it hits 1.0 it does -nothing-. People won't even notice. A bunch of the Crab have between 0.1 and 0.9 taint, so it's no biggie. No symptoms as long as you don't slip up again. Heck, even once you hit 1.0 a life in your clan's provinces is all sorts of possible. What you're allowed to do will be restricted, but there's still a lot to do.

In 4th Edition, the taint was somewhat of a hybrid of what it had been before... until the whole Iweko/Spider deal. Then I'm on board with those people that feel it just got stupid. Suddenly a person couldn't get the taint if they were foolish, severely unlucky, or they jumped in front of the oni bite and sacrificed for the team. Nope, they had to accept it. The danger, insidiousness, and the horror that made the taint interesting were all gone.


I think the taint needs to go back to its 1st Ed. roots. Should it reduce player agency? Not immediately. Maybe not at all, if the player's smart. If anything, it should give them new RPing opportunities. After all, it's an intelligent 'disease'. It wants you to become more corrupt so it's going to do what it can to make sure you don't end up hiding in your clan provinces, getting frequent visits from the Witch Hunters. The taint/the kansen are going to do whatever they think is going to help corrupt you. Perhaps one day you'll suddenly just get a Free Raise. Everyone likes Free Raises. Then, next time you or your friends are in danger, that little voice inside will want to know if you want another one. All you have to do is agree. What's the worse that could happen?