It's very good, maybe even overpowered.

But that still doesn't mean broken, which would imply that it's so abssolutely powerfull as to warp the game around itself.

I have a feeling expanded launchers will be making a comeback. They work a little better with Vader than ACM. Gives the Vader reroll more dice and a larger potential out of one arc. ACMs will still get used with screed, but el should get use.

My quick thoughts:

IF the ship pool and strategy space remained as it currently is? Then yes. It's a dominant choice; more so, I think it's the interaction between Screed + ACM + Demolisher that is the real problem. All of those on a stand alone basis are okay. Any two of them together are very good. All three of them together are bonkers. Yet the points scale linearly (you pay x for each upgrade) while the effect does not (the extra value from a Screed + ACM + Demolisher Glad I is greater than the net cost of the upgrades).

To that end, I would think it would ultimately need to be fixed.

However, as the ship pool changes? Perhaps not. The Gladiator is not tough, and while it can pick on small ships now, I'm not sure how much it will love facing something like a 4 AF or only Mon Cal + AF fleet at 400 points. In that context, if you start coming up against lists with no real "easy" targets and truly fearsome amounts of long-range firepower, I'm not sure it remains as good.

If it does, I think the core issue remains the interaction with Screed and ACM as well.

Edit: Screed also scales massively. Sacrificing one die matters less and less the more dice you roll; as good as Screed is now, imagine his effect interacting with the front arc of an ISD where you can throw enough dice to almost always punch through shields and guarantee a crit, perhaps even at range.

I concur with the OP. This card is the only no-brainer in the game. If you take a GSD, you take demolisher. NO QUESTION.

Showing there is something wrong with the title, imho.

My quick thoughts:

IF the ship pool and strategy space remained as it currently is? Then yes. It's a dominant choice; more so, I think it's the interaction between Screed + ACM + Demolisher that is the real problem. All of those on a stand alone basis are okay. Any two of them together are very good. All three of them together are bonkers. Yet the points scale linearly (you pay x for each upgrade) while the effect does not (the extra value from a Screed + ACM + Demolisher Glad I is greater than the net cost of the upgrades).

To that end, I would think it would ultimately need to be fixed.

However, as the ship pool changes? Perhaps not. The Gladiator is not tough, and while it can pick on small ships now, I'm not sure how much it will love facing something like a 4 AF or only Mon Cal + AF fleet at 400 points. In that context, if you start coming up against lists with no real "easy" targets and truly fearsome amounts of long-range firepower, I'm not sure it remains as good.

If it does, I think the core issue remains the interaction with Screed and ACM as well.

Edit: Screed also scales massively. Sacrificing one die matters less and less the more dice you roll; as good as Screed is now, imagine his effect interacting with the front arc of an ISD where you can throw enough dice to almost always punch through shields and guarantee a crit, perhaps even at range.

I think this is spot-on. The real danger is in the synergy between Demolisher and other things (Glad's innate damage dice, ACM's effect and cost, Screed's guarantee). The same title on a Corvette? Negligible. Probably. On an ISD? Uh... why play Rebels at all...?

It will be interesting how increasing the point limit from 300 to 400 (allowing more Glads) and adding larger ships (ISDs, Mon Cals) that can support defensive upgrades will affect the Gladiator. I don't expect them to become obsolete by any stretch (if for no other reason that the Empire doesn't have many ships to begin with, and nothing that really fills the Glad's niche as a fast, cheap brawler). But it will be interesting to see how gladiator packs fare against larger ships, particularly MC-80s that fire so many long range dice.

Sucker is tough. That is for darn sure. It's got a great combination of cards to add to it that make for a challenge to the Alliance.

Five GSDs, all with ACM, four of them with Techs, and Screed. Bearing down on the enemy... think fast, move smart - or die.

IMO Screed gets scarier the more ships you field, rather than how big they are.

My quick thoughts:

IF the ship pool and strategy space remained as it currently is? Then yes. It's a dominant choice; more so, I think it's the interaction between Screed + ACM + Demolisher that is the real problem. All of those on a stand alone basis are okay. Any two of them together are very good. All three of them together are bonkers. Yet the points scale linearly (you pay x for each upgrade) while the effect does not (the extra value from a Screed + ACM + Demolisher Glad I is greater than the net cost of the upgrades).

To that end, I would think it would ultimately need to be fixed.

However, as the ship pool changes? Perhaps not. The Gladiator is not tough, and while it can pick on small ships now, I'm not sure how much it will love facing something like a 4 AF or only Mon Cal + AF fleet at 400 points. In that context, if you start coming up against lists with no real "easy" targets and truly fearsome amounts of long-range firepower, I'm not sure it remains as good.

If it does, I think the core issue remains the interaction with Screed and ACM as well.

Edit: Screed also scales massively. Sacrificing one die matters less and less the more dice you roll; as good as Screed is now, imagine his effect interacting with the front arc of an ISD where you can throw enough dice to almost always punch through shields and guarantee a crit, perhaps even at range.

I think this is spot-on. The real danger is in the synergy between Demolisher and other things (Glad's innate damage dice, ACM's effect and cost, Screed's guarantee). The same title on a Corvette? Negligible. Probably. On an ISD? Uh... why play Rebels at all...?

It will be interesting how increasing the point limit from 300 to 400 (allowing more Glads) and adding larger ships (ISDs, Mon Cals) that can support defensive upgrades will affect the Gladiator. I don't expect them to become obsolete by any stretch (if for no other reason that the Empire doesn't have many ships to begin with, and nothing that really fills the Glad's niche as a fast, cheap brawler). But it will be interesting to see how gladiator packs fare against larger ships, particularly MC-80s that fire so many long range dice.

Mc80 can't take gunnery team so charging it with multiple Glads isn't that scary comapred to Assault firgate with gunnery team. And Assault firgate with gunnery team and Ackbar is much scarier than Mc80.

Five GSDs, all with ACM, four of them with Techs, and Screed. Bearing down on the enemy... think fast, move smart - or die.

IMO Screed gets scarier the more ships you field, rather than how big they are.

Completely Disagree.

Screed gets scary when I let him shoot at me.

Motti breaks my heart and makes games harder to win, wether its Small Ships or Big Ships.

Screed isn't that scary. ACM are scary. Screed make ACM work. Therefore : Screed + ACM are scary.

Screed isn't that scary. ACM are scary. Screed make ACM work. Therefore : Screed + ACM are scary.

ACM aren't that scary. They're a Black Crit. What are you, an Imperial Slug ?

^^^ that up there.

I concur with the OP. This card is the only no-brainer in the game. If you take a GSD, you take demolisher. NO QUESTION.

Showing there is something wrong with the title, imho.

Screed isn't that scary. ACM are scary. Screed make ACM work. Therefore : Screed + ACM are scary.

ACM aren't that scary. They're a Black Crit. What are you, an Imperial Slug ?

Screed isn't that scary. ACM are scary. Screed make ACM work. Therefore : Screed + ACM are scary.

ACM aren't that scary. They're a Black Crit. What are you, an Imperial Slug ?

Taking 3 ACM hits from a Demo in 2 turns IS scary. However, if you let that happen. . . Ota your own fault

well no, it's going to happen

you can't stop demo from slamming one round of ACM into you, but one ACM shot won't kill ya

if you let him do that and then double ACM you next round, that's your own fault

My quick thoughts:

IF the ship pool and strategy space remained as it currently is? Then yes. It's a dominant choice; more so, I think it's the interaction between Screed + ACM + Demolisher that is the real problem. All of those on a stand alone basis are okay. Any two of them together are very good. All three of them together are bonkers. Yet the points scale linearly (you pay x for each upgrade) while the effect does not (the extra value from a Screed + ACM + Demolisher Glad I is greater than the net cost of the upgrades).

To that end, I would think it would ultimately need to be fixed.

However, as the ship pool changes? Perhaps not. The Gladiator is not tough, and while it can pick on small ships now, I'm not sure how much it will love facing something like a 4 AF or only Mon Cal + AF fleet at 400 points. In that context, if you start coming up against lists with no real "easy" targets and truly fearsome amounts of long-range firepower, I'm not sure it remains as good.

If it does, I think the core issue remains the interaction with Screed and ACM as well.

Edit: Screed also scales massively. Sacrificing one die matters less and less the more dice you roll; as good as Screed is now, imagine his effect interacting with the front arc of an ISD where you can throw enough dice to almost always punch through shields and guarantee a crit, perhaps even at range.

I think this is spot-on. The real danger is in the synergy between Demolisher and other things (Glad's innate damage dice, ACM's effect and cost, Screed's guarantee). The same title on a Corvette? Negligible. Probably. On an ISD? Uh... why play Rebels at all...?

It will be interesting how increasing the point limit from 300 to 400 (allowing more Glads) and adding larger ships (ISDs, Mon Cals) that can support defensive upgrades will affect the Gladiator. I don't expect them to become obsolete by any stretch (if for no other reason that the Empire doesn't have many ships to begin with, and nothing that really fills the Glad's niche as a fast, cheap brawler). But it will be interesting to see how gladiator packs fare against larger ships, particularly MC-80s that fire so many long range dice.

Mc80 can't take gunnery team so charging it with multiple Glads isn't that scary comapred to Assault firgate with gunnery team. And Assault firgate with gunnery team and Ackbar is much scarier than Mc80.

All true (assuming the rebel player with an MC-80 isn't second player with an advanced gunnery objective). That said, I still think the staying power of the MC-80, coupled with its pretty-good offensive capabilities, will affect gladiator packs. Even if you can only shoot at one target, six base dice at close-to-medium range (without Ackbar, CF, Defiance, etc) is nothing to sneeze at. So who wins the war of attrition: a pack of two or three boxing gladiators with ACMs powered by Screed, or an MC-80 with 8 hull, 15 shields, Ackbar, Defiance, heavy turbolasers, advanced projectors, and advanced countermeasures (or the new Redundant [shielding?] defensive retrofit upgrade)?

Bearing in mind that (1) at the start of the engagement, the MC-80 can shoot a single Glad further and harder than the Glad can shoot back, (2) boxing an MC-80, while it does damage to the MC-80's hull, requires the gladiators to be stationary, making them easier targets for the rest of the fleet, and (3) the loss of each gladiator significantly reduces the damage performed by the pack as a whole, I think it will be interesting to see how gladiator strategies evolve as a result, and whether running large swarms of them will be quite the terror that it is now.

Let's say you have five GSD Is with Screed, ACMs on all 5, Engine Techs on all 5, Demolisher, and one Gunnery Team (398 points). Your opponent is a suped-up-mega-dual-carrier list: two MC-80 Command carriers, with Ackbar, Advanced Projectors and Heavy Turbolaser Turrets on both, and the Home One and Defiance titles, with 4 B-wings, 3 A-wings, and Tycho (also 398 points). The rebel strategy is to move around the board at speed 2, with their starfighters between them and you like a dense thicket. What's the strategy?

• Best-case volley on your initial approach is five black dice (Demolisher moves from out of long-range into close-range on a speed 3+1 maneuver with a navigate token, boxing the MC-80 and setting up a double-arc shot next round, and broadsides with CF) for 10 hits (all ten dice hit-crit) + ACMs. MC-80 braces (5 damage), redirects (0 hull damage, total shields reduced from 15 to 10).
• Anything else that moves to approach is going to get shellacked. Best-case scenario is:
  • Glad 1 moves to box MC-80 #1
  • MC-80 #1 (Home One) activates, CF's instead of Squadron commands, shoots Glad from the front arc, not the side arc (2 Red, 2 Blue), deals below average damage (Glad 1 damage: 2), and collides (MC-80 hull damage: 1).
  • Glad 2 moves to Box MC-80#1
  • MC-80 #2 (Defiance) activates, CF's instead of Squadron commands, shoots Glad 2 from side arc (6R, 3B), deals below average damage (Glad 1 damage: 3), collides with MC-80 #1 (MC-80 hull Damage: 2, 1).
  • Glad 3 moves to box MC-80
  • Glad 4 moves to box MC-80
  • Demolisher moves to box MC-80, lands five hit-crits with CF command, triggers ACMs, for 0 hull damage and -5 shields.
  • Squadrons activate. Because of horrendous, inexplicably bad placement, only half of the B-wings and A-wings are in position to return fire, and only on two of the five GSDs. The B-wings land below-average damage (3 hits on four dice), as do the A-wings (1 hit on two dice).

End result: two Glads are slightly damaged, both MC-80s have some damage but are boxed in, everyone is at a stand-still. The odds probably favor the Glads at this stage, just due to the fact that the MC-80s only have two attacks between them (or four, if they take double-arcs without Ackbar), and there are five targets. But the Rebels have caught just about every bad break at this stage.* If you have five Glads parked in front/around two MC-80s and only two of them can go before the Mon-Cals (and their squadrons), are you really feeling good about this?

Again, not saying that the GSD won't have a place. But I think Reinholt's point is probably spot-on. If an enemy fleet doesn't have an easy target, or has a tanky target that can fight back, or surrounds a tanky target with another huge tanky target (dual Mon-Cals), fast and powerful screeners (MC-30s, AFIIs), or bomber screens, at some point I would think we would start seeing diminishing returns on Gladiator spam. Or more creative Gladiator strategies.

* Or made just about every wrong decision:

1) If Glad #1 does end up in Home One's side arc, that's 5R/3B + CF with Ackbar, or 2R/1B/3R/3B +CF from front and side arcs, instead of 2R/2B. That's the difference between 3 average damage, and 6-6.75 average damage.

2) If Home One squadron commands instead of CFs, that can add as many as 4 more black dice and 4 more blue dice against the first Gladiator, if all 4 B-wings are activated and can reach GSD #1 (if employed as a close screen, there's virtually no chance that at least a few of them can't make it, and the A-wings definitely will be able to cover. Assuming two B's and two A's can attack GSD 1, that's two more blue dice and four more black dice--or another 5.5 damage on average rolls. If a GSD is still alive after taking 11 damage (6 from Home One, 5 from squadrons), it's likely going down when Home One collides with it. One GSD down, 1 hull damage to show for it.

3) If Defiance makes the same kinds of moves when Glad 2 comes in as Home One made to counter Glad 1, the results are likely to be slightly more devastating. Free black dice, people. There's a real chance that neither Glad 1 or 2 are on the board when Glad 3 activates. If they are, they're going down shortly thereafter (getting shot at before they activate, taking ram damage on their activation, or getting mowed down by mid-to-long range dice as they try to escape after their activation).

thanks guys lots of good input.

If a Demolisher and his pals want to take in the MC80 with Akbar and Defiance, they better hope they can box it in. If they fail 1 will die almost every turn.

Yeah, I think the shrimps and the cruiser will probably put a hurt on the Demolisher from broadside. It'll be interesting to see how movement strategies evolve when wave 2 finally drops.

Yeah, I think the shrimps and the cruiser will probably put a hurt on the Demolisher from broadside. It'll be interesting to see how movement strategies evolve when wave 2 finally drops.

Yeah. Effectively, it makes the Demolisher a herd dog with a suicidal tendency to move in for a quick hit before dying to rebel fire. Then again, weird things have happened....

But from a balancing and effectiveness standpoint; that ship is one of the best I have ever seen in a game.

Yeah. Effectively, it makes the Demolisher a herd dog with a suicidal tendency to move in for a quick hit before dying to rebel fire. Then again, weird things have happened....

But from a balancing and effectiveness standpoint; that ship is one of the best I have ever seen in a game.

I still think the current best ship is the Assault Frigate. Once you flip that tail it sort of grows on you.

Demolisher is my current nemesis, sure. Currently, Screed/glads/ordnance is always the last thing I want to see on the other side of the table. Demolisher lists are absolutely among the alpha builds and I do find them frustrating to fly against.

But I don't believe that they are broken. As often as Demolishers make me roll my eyes with their shenanigans, they totally melt to some coordinated (and long range) fire as many have pointed out. They play a risky game, and it works out for them often enough to be as popular as they are; but when it goes pear shaped through maneuver miscalculation, poor target selection, over aggression or whatever else, the gladiator is likely left as scrap or in very bad shape as a result.

A loaded up Demolisher is a decent point investment too - last time I destroyed one, I forgot how pricey they were.

Yeah, I think the shrimps and the cruiser will probably put a hurt on the Demolisher from broadside. It'll be interesting to see how movement strategies evolve when wave 2 finally drops.

not just shrimps, my friend

they have been dubbed Counter Shrimp Frigates by the magical mon cal wizard that dreamed them up as a direct "**** you" to the demolisher and GSD in general

and to the VSD, and even the ISD