The TIE Phantom: Convince me.

By DraconPyrothayan, in X-Wing

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The Empire now has 3 ships in the super-fighter-flanker range, and 3 awesome PS 9 Aces in that 35-37 range.

But, when given the options of Baron Fel and Lord Vader, does Whisper still stack up, even up to her former 40+ squadpoints? If so, what build?

Moreover, does the Sigma Squadron pilot have any builds that are superior to a Royal Guard or Tempest in its price-range?

Now, I don't believe that the Phantom Nerf brought it to this lowly place (although Decloak being used as the ultimate in arc-dodging technology is overpowered); I just simply think that the introduction of the Autothrusters and the TIE x/1 titles have caused these other builds to outclass it.

And so, the prompt.

Convince me that I am wrong, and that the weirdest of the Empire's ships is still a viable powerhouse.

Bonus points if your convincement is in the form of a squad-list, particularly in a 3-ship list with the other two in the archetype.

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4 Atk Dice.

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Fel might do damage. Vader will probably do damage. Buzzsaw whisper WILL hit. A tanky Corran can shrug off the other two 9 times out of 10. Whisper will eventually kill him if she gets arc.

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I can't convince you because 37 point predator Vader is the best small ship in the game bar none in my opinion. Whisper costing 7 points more and being quite a bit weaker and easier to counter all while having a distinct possibility of less damage is a tough pill to swallow.

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Personally, I kind of like the idea of some them to escort Palpatine. I've really been convinced about Palpatine's viability, especially with high Agility ships.

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Personally, I kind of like the idea of some them to escort Palpatine. I've really been convinced about Palpatine's viability, especially with high Agility ships.

I've been running Vader and a 34 point escort (often soontir but tlt makes him softer than I like) with the Palpatine shuttle and it takes good ships and makes them stupid. Plus the shuttle can fly slowly and arrive to the fight without much pressure since the other ships in the list are much scarier.

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NO ITS MY PHANTOM GIT.

for real though, more than once ive seen my whisper one shot a corran horn. it is for this reason Whisper will forever be in my heart list that and i never played pre nerf.

Edited by Panic 217
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The Phantom is fine; it's just more nuanced now. They have also made Vader and Soontir elite threats where they weren't before, so instead of auto-include Whisper, you actually have a choice. It just wasn't an amazing ship against the fat turret meta that often had PS 10+ ships that could arc dodge.

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I think it's a question of role. For all their lore based stealth and former glory as supreme arc dodgers, right now they are blunt instruments. This is not to say they require no skill or are one trick ponies, but their core competency is definitely beating the tar out of something. 4 dice primary with FCS is crazy. Vader and Soontir are balanced, every-turn ships. They do great damage, are tough to kill, and maneuverable, but their hitting power tapers off a bit against high defense stuff. Phantom don't care. Those dice cut through it all. They just can't take a punch as well anymore and are hard countered by some things. They are unbalanced, and so are more effective in certain situations than others. So if your list needs the most raw damage for the points, Phantoms are for you.

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Why argue over who's the best?

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v3!s!22:-1,-1:23:-1:U.124;28:18:-1:15:;79:27,-1,-1:-1:9:

Sure, each one has some sacrifices (Vader doesn't have Pred or EU, Fel doesn't have SD, and Whisper is missing FCS), but the core of each one is untouched. They're all 999 with killer attacks, they're all arc-dodgy and can employ hit and run techniques, and you don't want to match up against any of them in the end game.

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Whisper + FCS + VI + ACD + Intel

Vader + x1 + ATC + Pred + EU

Tempest + x1 + AC

= 98

This list works very well!

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Why argue over who's the best?

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v3!s!22:-1,-1:23:-1:U.124;28:18:-1:15:;79:27,-1,-1:-1:9:

Sure, each one has some sacrifices (Vader doesn't have Pred or EU, Fel doesn't have SD, and Whisper is missing FCS), but the core of each one is untouched. They're all 999 with killer attacks, they're all arc-dodgy and can employ hit and run techniques, and you don't want to match up against any of them in the end game.

I just made that exact list a couple hours ago for a tournament tonight, except I added the tie mk ii engine to vader.

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I think they are all good.

Phantom I think fits best beside jousting support ships. Soontir can't consistently stay in the fight as well as Whisper can, and is forced to run and re-engage. Vader is okay at staying in the fray, with that 1 bank and ability to K Turn easily, but he requires setting up a TL to even think about doing damage, occasionally having to choose between damage and defense. Whisper can mozy on into any fight and throw out tons of damage immediately, and stay in the fray with decloaks and 1 turns.

I also think Whisper is better for taking on the TLT meta. 4 HP, 4 Agi, 2 tokens, and can stay at range 1 with an arc very easily.

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It may be time to unlearn what you have learned.

Let's not use the standard builds.

Whisper

Juke

Enhanced Scope (to still get the mobility, only earlier)

Intelligence Agent (to see where you must be going)

SPA to get the evade token.

New, exciting, fresh air!

"Whisper" (32)

Juke (2)

Enhanced Scopes (1)

Navigator (3)

Stygium Particle Accelerator (2)

Darth Vader (29)

Predator (3)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

TIE/x1 (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

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Big fan of the Sigmas since the change.

3x Sigma+IA+SPA

Dark Curse

Thanks to IA, When the Sigma's decloack, they KNOW where there oponents will be and can even decloack in such a way as to block. Then, take their movement and action. Dark Curse is thrown in to be a further pain as you opponent wastes precious time just trying to hit the little bugger.

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Whispers big schtik when she was broken was "haha you can't block me for ****!"

Even if you accounted for the decloaks, shed get:

1. FCS

2. ACD

3. Free focus

The cloak errata changed exactly none of that

Soonts and Vader, meanwhile? Blocking or dropping nets on them is basically free points for you

As long as you don't run into a pwt , whisper 's got game

Even generics might see play with sensor jammer, going by all the hyperbolic tlt fears

Sensor jammer, styigium, and intelligence agent make for demanding but silly fun ships

Ironically, the generics are scapels (precision instruments requiring timing and skill) while Whisper's more of a cleaver (choochoo! Here comes the 4/4 train!)

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Whisper's more of a cleaver

OI FRESH MEAT!!

only its whisper so its more like

Hey... Psst. I'ma stick it in ya.

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Whispers big schtik when she was broken was "haha you can't block me for ****!"

Even if you accounted for the decloaks, shed get:

1. FCS

2. ACD

3. Free focus

The cloak errata changed exactly none of that

Soonts and Vader, meanwhile? Blocking or dropping nets on them is basically free points for you

As long as you don't run into a pwt , whisper 's got game

Even generics might see play with sensor jammer, going by all the hyperbolic tlt fears

Sensor jammer, styigium, and intelligence agent make for demanding but silly fun ships

Ironically, the generics are scapels (precision instruments requiring timing and skill) while Whisper's more of a cleaver (choochoo! Here comes the 4/4 train!)

I mean doing those things to whisper will also make her a sad puppy to be fair.

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Whisper shall rise again! Her greatest weakness was against fat turrets, and what with TLTs and rule changes making fatties a tricky prospect, now she can crawl back into the light...

Plus, of course, Whisper with recon specialist laughs at tlt carriers - 4 green die is that sweet spot where focus becomes a better token than evade, and even if she uses one with her fcs to drop 3-5 hits, she still has 4 greens and 2 focus to turtle with.

She also don't care too much about brobots, another list that's going to see plenty of tabletime now.

Her real weakness imo is to elite ps ships like Corran or an initiative-winning Soontir. But that's why you brought vader, right?

As for sigmas, they are a lot weaker due to their stutter fire tactics with SPA - still great blockers and flankers, but a dodgy prospect againt tlts... I tried to make em work, but my win rate with 2 sigmas in my list is below 50%.

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Just thinking, what about this?

Soontir Fel (27)
Push the Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)
Stealth Device (3)
Royal Guard TIE (0)

Darth Vader (29)
Predator (3)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)
Stealth Device (3)
TIE/x1 (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Emperor Palpatine (8)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

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I really like Echo as well vs Whisper, and subbing in Echo allows for a little more room in the Vader/Soont/Phantom build. You can fit in FCS to Echo as well as something like Crackshot on Vader or an IA crew on Echo and she's still PS 8

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My Echo Vader list i like to run plays with people's heads as it forces them to kill vader first, who can be a tricksy little minks...

Vader

VI

EU

title ATC

Echo

Decoy (mhm that decoy)

FCS

Kallus (upon release)

ACD

Leaving 25 points to flavor the end with, can go with:

Doomshuttle

AC tie Adv

Omega leader/Ace with PTL

ect...

Echo keeps close to Vader with Decloak and vader keeps close to echo with EU.

they work in unison to evade and conquer.

what it comes down to is if Kallus on a Phantom doesnt excite your jiblets then maybe a phantom is just not the ship for you.

Edited by Panic 217