What if my last ship gets destroyed with four minutes to go before time is called, while my opponent is left with two Brobots with, oh, two hull each? I went toe-to-toe with this build for 71 out of the 75 minutes we had, very nearly giving as good as I got. By the old method, doesn't matter, it's 100 to zip and it looks like I got stomped. This way, my opponent still gets the full win, but I at least get some credit for making them work for it.

What if my last ship gets destroyed with four minutes to go before time is called, while my opponent is left with two Brobots with, oh, two hull each? I went toe-to-toe with this build for 71 out of the 75 minutes we had, very nearly giving as good as I got. By the old method, doesn't matter, it's 100 to zip and it looks like I got stomped. This way, my opponent still gets the full win, but I at least get some credit for making them work for it.

Or maybe you're down to your last ship against a Bro-bot with 1 shield. Under the old rules, your best bet is to run like a bunny and hope to preserve some points, negative play experience. Now you will want to continue to fight and take that last shield. Even if you die in the attempt, it can improve your MOV.

Wow, RIP Bro Bots.

This is certainly not going to kill Bro Bots competitively.

I think it kinda does...

How so? You just make a blanket comment and expect it to stand on it's own merit? Bro Bots are a strong list that win many games. Even if they give up some points for 1/2 strength, they are still going to win games. With EVERY list giving up points now, it will be less and less a matter of winning without giving up any. The whole MOV will be turned on it's head. Yes, some people will win their games without losing much, but a lot less often and a lot less numbers of them. There should now be no list that will be MOV proof, which means fotressing their points to ensure you do well.

This new system won't really change jousting values that much other than it is easier for small ships to make their points when up against large ships will it?

Sure I hear that it lessens the strength of large ships but I am trying to think if that changes anything like expected damage and I can't think of any jousting value that goes up or down with this change.

This new system won't really change jousting values that much other than it is easier for small ships to make their points when up against large ships will it?

The problem has never been that small ships can't do damage to a Fat Han playing defensively, it's that they can't do enough damage in the time limit given to kill it.

IME most games would of had the large ships giving up half their points if this had been the rule then. I've actually scored a few games using the half health = half points, in which the winner of the game was different than the old MoV scoring system.

This doesn't really nerf large ships, but it does stop them from abusing the MoV system like they were, and will make them less of a default, and will in fact mean in some cases the person who would of won, will actually be the loser when time is called.

I do think some are overestimating the effects this will have on the game. I think, with the mandatory 75 minute games should allow most games to finish to completion.

I think everyone has spent so much time coming up with excuses for the 2-ship dominance that any ding to their justifications become catastrophic.

The change is welcome (and needed), but pretty irrelevant if you win your games in the first place. Nobody's going to change to a losing list out of fear of a poorer MoV.

Well, some people probably will, but not the good ones.

What I hope will happen, though, is that savvy players who were picking small lists with Latge ships because they protected MOV effectively may feel free to pick different lists.

They should have done this when the first large ships came out....then no one would be flipping out about it. The even newer Tournament Rules V3.2.2, which is downloadable, shows this now and answers the Hull and Shield upgrade question.

I'm glad this got sorted quickly. The intention was pretty clear, but the implementation was not.

In terms of MoV it cuts both ways, a brobots list is now more likely to give up some points and win 100-25 or 100-50 or perhaps even 100-75. However when/if they lose they will tend to pick up up more MoV (more so versus other 2 ship builds). So less 0-100 is going to be better for them as well.

I like that it also has implications for 3 ships small base builds who can now win at time with only a single ship left versus a large base ship. In the past this was all but impossible.

In general I have been against any form of half points because it would mostly benefits large base ships more so than smalls (if it applied equally to all ships that is), but restricting it to only large base ships just divides the base MoV into four rather than two gradiations. Which is a good improvement, so in general I like it. It will be interesting to see it in action and see how much it really impacts the game. I think, like the phantom nerf, it is more likely that most of the nerf is psychological and it will result in people avoiding two ship large base builds for a time, when really this far from kills them.

What I hope will happen, though, is that savvy players who were picking small lists with Latge ships because they protected MOV effectively may feel free to pick different lists.

We'll see, but I doubt MoV protection was the top (or even in the top three) reason for the 2-ship builds.

And honestly, this doesn't seem like even a "We'll see", because we HAVE seen. I think the era of swarm dominance was over by the time MoV came around, but swarm hell was an even bigger meta-setback. It didn't stop the swarms from holding their spots at the top, and I don't think we're going to see some dramatic impact here either.

I think at least in the short term this may scare people off from using large-base ships at all. I'm sure it'll normalize in a few months once people realize that YTs and Decimators are still competitive enough to be worth taking, but in the meantime, enjoy flying against Y-Wings and TIE Advanceds.

(And on that note, it'll look like Wave 1 again out there! Haha)

I love it. Now all the Fat players have to attack you a little more, which means more chances to damage them, which balances all the MOV game a lot more.

Right now my suggested nerf for Primary Weapon turrets to Gain +1 attack dice at range one in primary arc only. Looks much better doesn't it.

What I hope will happen, though, is that savvy players who were picking small lists with Latge ships because they protected MOV effectively may feel free to pick different lists.

We'll see, but I doubt MoV protection was the top (or even in the top three) reason for the 2-ship builds.

Speaking from direct experience, I think you're right. I don't build or fly my list around timed games. My games almost always complete well before time is called. Conan style strategy for the win!

But the flip side is that the high MoV afforded by the right build (in my case BroBots) is/was nice to have.

It's only a sample size of 4, but here are the medium to large sized tournaments that I have played in:

• In 2015 MA Regionals (with PS6 BroBots and slightly less refined play) I only managed 4-2, but made the Top 16 (15/72) to get shield tokens based on MoV.
• In 2015 PA Regionals, I went 5-1 and was #2 Swiss, and had the highest MoV of any players, including Ron Brannon who was 6-0 with BBBBZ. Ended up winning that one.
• 2015 Summer tournament at my local store, 20 players, I went 4-1 and was the #2 seed based on MoV. I made the final table (we did a cut to Top 4) and lost to the tournament winner a 2nd time on the day.
• 2015 NOVA Open, I went 5-1 and was the #2 seed based on MoV. Ended Top 4 in a Top 16 cut.

So, in my first large tournament (ever) the 100-0 wipes helped nudge me into the Top 16. In my 3 medium/large tournaments since then, I have lost 1 game in Swiss, but always ended up as the #2 seed based on MoV. 100-0 is by far the most common outcome for my games.

I am actually looking forward to seeing how my MoV will fare now in large tournaments with the new rule. It will be a healthy challenge to see if I can continue to stay near the top of the MoV heap.

swarm hell was an even bigger meta-setback.

I don't think we'll ever see swarm dominance again really, given the plethora of tools to kill them with.

The thing to remember, is someone always gets screwed by the tie breakers. Whether it is MOV or SOS.

What I hope will happen, though, is that savvy players who were picking small lists with Latge ships because they protected MOV effectively may feel free to pick different lists.

We'll see, but I doubt MoV protection was the top (or even in the top three) reason for the 2-ship builds.

And honestly, this doesn't seem like even a "We'll see", because we HAVE seen. I think the era of swarm dominance was over by the time MoV came around, but swarm hell was an even bigger meta-setback. It didn't stop the swarms from holding their spots at the top, and I don't think we're going to see some dramatic impact here either.

I did some data mining earlier this year, looking at regional results that I never got around to publishing. While two ship lists were just plain good, 4+ ships (without a point fortress) lists were more likely to appear at the bottom of the tiebreakers when they had the same record as "point fortresses."

The thing to remember, is someone always gets screwed by the tie breakers. Whether it is MOV or SOS.

But at least they'll get screwed more fairly under these rules.

Okay I am over this stupidity... DUDES!

Now we have to keep up to the seconds as the F'n rules change daily via emails?

NAH... I'm done!

Wow, RIP Bro Bots.

This is certainly not going to kill Bro Bots competitively.

I think it kinda does...

How so? You just make a blanket comment and expect it to stand on it's own merit? Bro Bots are a strong list that win many games. Even if they give up some points for 1/2 strength, they are still going to win games. With EVERY list giving up points now, it will be less and less a matter of winning without giving up any. The whole MOV will be turned on it's head. Yes, some people will win their games without losing much, but a lot less often and a lot less numbers of them. There should now be no list that will be MOV proof, which means fotressing their points to ensure you do well.

Here's one example of why BroBots are strongly affected: let's say my 50 point IG88C is left against your Soontir Fel. Soontir is down to one hull but IG88C has had his shields stripped but 4 hull remaining.

The game goes to time. Who wins? Soontir.

So it's a diversion from the point you are trying to make, but in that example, Soontir will take a modified win. I think the net outcome of this change will be a pretty significant increase in mod wins in games involving large base ships.

Here's one example of why BroBots are strongly affected: let's say my 50 point IG88C is left against your Soontir Fel. Soontir is down to one hull but IG88C has had his shields stripped but 4 hull remaining.

The game goes to time. Who wins? Soontir.

Your example is flawed, as Soontir is ahead in that situation and fully deserves the timed win. His arc dodging potential makes him BroBot kryptonite, especially in a 1v1, and especially when that last Bot is in one-shot range. Give him an extra round or two and he'll win 100-65 instead of 75-65.

EDIT: Learn to spel, Drac...

It is, however, a difference. In the old system the Brobot would've won.

I feel that whatever it does to gamesmanship, the new system is certainly a more accurate view of the table at time. While smaller ships still have a mildly odd representation, it's not such a big deal given none of them can rely on tanking fire as much as the 60pt fatties, and those that can... well, Soontir and Corran can solo games even on their last hitpoint, so that's still not inaccurate.

Just a question but when does these rules take effect? We are in the middle of league but right now I think the TO is in favor of holding off on the change until after league.

Officially not until Oct 1st. But as someone who runs a league, I'd say it's completely up to the person running it.

Myself I wouldn't put these changes to MoV into effect until after the current season ended.

How about this? Just kill everyone on the other team. Go on the offensive instead of playing for time. Heck actually have a battle instead of Merry go round plinking shot and dodging arcs. If you kill everyone on the other team, it doesn't matter. This is the way the game was intended to be played. Yes big ships will suffer, but it will force them to fight rather than dodge and run the whole game.

For me this change makes the game fun again and nerfs the following:

Engine Upgrade on Big ships, since dodging is still good, but now we get points for you.

No more Merry go round nonsense.

Not as many pancake lists

Better Piloting of all ships

It's like a breath of fresh air just got injected into the game again. How do you win, you kill the other guys squad. Simple and Effective!

My Too Cents

Okay I am over this stupidity... DUDES!

Now we have to keep up to the seconds as the F'n rules change daily via emails?

NAH... I'm done!

Look you son of a *****! I did NOT just come over to the positive side of the forums just to have you quit on me! YOU HEAR ME! Don't give up, JBR7! Don't go into the light! CLEAR!

While he recovers, I will add another voice in appreciation of FFG's commitment to improving everyone's play experience. You can still load up Corran/Miranda and recover health to keep points away on a small ship, but it seems that's a little more difficult. I do still wish it was simply points scored for every damage done, because you can work hard to kill escorts and do 6 damage to a Falcon without getting any points for the big guy, but we're going in the right direction.