The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

Everyone who thinks Order must be maintained over Chaos, and that respecting the Spider in a courtly honorable fashion maintains Order and thus does a better job of protecting what Rokugan believes in (which is Order) than allowing the rules of the system to break because you really, really, reallllly dislike someone the rules say you should treat with courtesy.

Stop looking at this as "giving things to the Spider" or "doing things for the Spider" as if it is unfair to give them things or do things for them. That's nonsense. It's nonfunctional. That model has completely died, we are not in a mode where every prize given to one side is a prize not given to everyone else -- if you keep seeing it that way you are wrong.

The only things I am interested in giving to the Spider are things that allow the Spider to serve the entire setting better. The entire setting is served better if the Spider can be the Vegeta of Rokugan, and if people have to play nice with them at court because that is what maintains Order (and if the Spider must play nice at court with people they would rather be murdering because that is what maintains Order). It allows much more interesting personal and Clan-scale conflict. Spider are carrying a lot of weight because they are antagonists and antagonists are really, really important to the functioning of a story. Forcing the courtly clans to interact with them, sipping tea through clenched teeth is not something that benefits the Spider at the expense of the courtly clans, it is something that benefits the courtly clans by involving them in the conflict and giving them more opportunities to show off their personal and clan identities by placing them in situations where they are tested. In-character, Spider at court is bad for all of the other clans. Out of character, Spider at court is much better for all of them. Right now, we want to find otu the best out-of-character state, and then come up with the proper justification to arrive there.

And why do they want that? Why do they hate the empire and want to see it destroyed? And do you think the Spider want to do that even when tehy would rule the empire?Come on, think for a moment, the Spider are just people too! They are a minority that faced planty of discrimination, so of course they hate the way of life in the empire, but that usually changes with minorities that become part of the system, is that so hard to grasp?

...

I gotta ask this. Are you serious, or just trolling?

I think he's saying it very poorly but what he's saying isn't wrong. Think of it less as a "Spider are poor little victims" thing and more of a "Foreigners can never conquer China because anyone who does just becomes Chinese" kind of deal. The act of infiltrating Rokugan and participating in Rokugani culture and institutions to subvert them, would give them enough psychological stake in it that they would no longer be just trying to destroy it. By the time they took over, they would not be "outsiders who want to destroy Rokugan," they would be "Rokugani who want to be in charge."

I don't think it's exactly relevant right now, and he seems to be bringing it up as an IC argument when it is a way better OOC one, but that's the point I am seeing.

The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

Everyone who thinks Order must be maintained over Chaos, and that respecting the Spider in a courtly honorable fashion maintains Order and thus does a better job of protecting what Rokugan believes in (which is Order) than allowing the rules of the system to break because you really, really, reallllly dislike someone the rules say you should treat with courtesy.

Stop looking at this as "giving things to the Spider" or "doing things for the Spider" as if it is unfair to give them things or do things for them. That's nonsense. It's nonfunctional. That model has completely died, we are not in a mode where every prize given to one side is a prize not given to everyone else -- if you keep seeing it that way you are wrong.

The only things I am interested in giving to the Spider are things that allow the Spider to serve the entire setting better. The entire setting is served better if the Spider can be the Vegeta of Rokugan, and if people have to play nice with them at court because that is what maintains Order (and if the Spider must play nice at court with people they would rather be murdering because that is what maintains Order). It allows much more interesting personal and Clan-scale conflict. Spider are carrying a lot of weight because they are antagonists and antagonists are really, really important to the functioning of a story. Forcing the courtly clans to interact with them, sipping tea through clenched teeth is not something that benefits the Spider at the expense of the courtly clans, it is something that benefits the courtly clans by involving them in the conflict and giving them more opportunities to show off their personal and clan identities by placing them in situations where they are tested. In-character, Spider at court is bad for all of the other clans. Out of character, Spider at court is much better for all of them. Right now, we want to find otu the best out-of-character state, and then come up with the proper justification to arrive there.

This isn't about prizes, it's about coherent worldbuilding.

The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

Everyone who thinks Order must be maintained over Chaos, and that respecting the Spider in a courtly honorable fashion maintains Order and thus does a better job of protecting what Rokugan believes in (which is Order) than allowing the rules of the system to break because you really, really, reallllly dislike someone the rules say you should treat with courtesy.

Stop looking at this as "giving things to the Spider" or "doing things for the Spider" as if it is unfair to give them things or do things for them. That's nonsense. It's nonfunctional. That model has completely died, we are not in a mode where every prize given to one side is a prize not given to everyone else -- if you keep seeing it that way you are wrong.

The only things I am interested in giving to the Spider are things that allow the Spider to serve the entire setting better. The entire setting is served better if the Spider can be the Vegeta of Rokugan, and if people have to play nice with them at court because that is what maintains Order (and if the Spider must play nice at court with people they would rather be murdering because that is what maintains Order). It allows much more interesting personal and Clan-scale conflict. Spider are carrying a lot of weight because they are antagonists and antagonists are really, really important to the functioning of a story. Forcing the courtly clans to interact with them, sipping tea through clenched teeth is not something that benefits the Spider at the expense of the courtly clans, it is something that benefits the courtly clans by involving them in the conflict and giving them more opportunities to show off their personal and clan identities by placing them in situations where they are tested. In-character, Spider at court is bad for all of the other clans. Out of character, Spider at court is much better for all of them. Right now, we want to find otu the best out-of-character state, and then come up with the proper justification to arrive there.

This isn't about prizes, it's about coherent worldbuilding.

That isn't a counterargument. I am saying, the world where X is true is much better at doing what the game wants to do, than the world where X is not true. The game is being relaunched. Let's launch it as a world where X is true, and make whatever other decisions are necessary to make X true.

"It's about coherent worldbuilding" is not a coherent counterargument. I want to build a coherent world. I want to build a coherent world that accomplishes the goals it needs to accomplish. If your model of the world cannot accommodate this goal, then let's make another coherent model that can.

The problem with trying to use vegeta, or even piccolo as an example is that once they went to team Z warriors, they stopped being bad guys. They weren't killing random townsfolk, blowing up cities, or trying to conquer the world anymore. Spider still murder people, wield forbidden magics, unleashed a flipping biological weapon on the lion and as of pre Onyx are literally trying to bring hell on earth and take over the "world". The analogy just doesn't fit no matter how hard you try and slap the dark anti-hero bumper sticker on them. The Spider are still villains.

The problem with trying to use vegeta, or even piccolo as an example is that once they went to team Z warriors, they stopped being bad guys. They weren't killing random townsfolk, blowing up cities, or trying to conquer the world anymore. Spider still murder people, wield forbidden magics, unleashed a flipping biological weapon on the lion and as of pre Onyx are literally trying to bring hell on earth and take over the "world". The analogy just doesn't fit no matter how hard you try and slap the dark anti-hero bumper sticker on them. The Spider are still villains.

Piccolo became a good guy.

Vegeta was just as much of a murderous psychopath as he always was, but his goals weren't served by flipping out and killing random people, and he wanted to kill the same people the Z-warriors did (because they threatened him too). The whole time, he was telling them he was not one of them, he did not like them, and he was going to crush them all one day. And it took him thirteen years to see a really good opportunity in Babidi, but when he saw it, he jumped on it, and he started flipping out and killing people.

Also, your argument doesn't really fit... Vegeta did a bunch of horrible stuff before he became a "good guy" by your reckoning, but the Spider can't be like Vegeta because all of the bad things they did?

You mean where Babidi casts a magic spell on vegeta to turn his evil on? There's a difference between being coerced into doing bad things, and just doing bad things. The spider didn't have one oops moment multiple story arcs into their redemption. They have consistently done them throughout the entirety of their existence. Vegeta was a huge jerkwad, but he never actually followed through on all his jibber jabber. The timing of when those evil deeds happen matters.

You mean where Babidi casts a magic spell on vegeta to turn his evil on? There's a difference between being coerced into doing bad things, and just doing bad things. The spider didn't have one oops moment multiple story arcs into their redemption. They have consistently done them throughout the entirety of their existence. Vegeta was a huge jerkwad, but he never actually followed through on all his jibber jabber. The timing of when those evil deeds happen matters.

Vegeta makes it explicit that he did it completely willingly and that Babidi was too weak to do anything to him without his cooperation. He said that he had noticed how long it had been since he was really menacing people, noticed his emotional ties to his family, and thought it was sickening weakness. Babidi didn't coerce him into anything, he saw a chance to cast off the feelings and attachments that made him weak, and be strong again.

It is, like, one of the few legit character moments in the entire series. If it had ended right after Vegeta's death without bringing him and Buu back, it would have retroactively made the entire series about him, and made it like three times better. But alas, it was not to be.

The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

Everyone who thinks Order must be maintained over Chaos, and that respecting the Spider in a courtly honorable fashion maintains Order and thus does a better job of protecting what Rokugan believes in (which is Order) than allowing the rules of the system to break because you really, really, reallllly dislike someone the rules say you should treat with courtesy.

Stop looking at this as "giving things to the Spider" or "doing things for the Spider" as if it is unfair to give them things or do things for them. That's nonsense. It's nonfunctional. That model has completely died, we are not in a mode where every prize given to one side is a prize not given to everyone else -- if you keep seeing it that way you are wrong.

The only things I am interested in giving to the Spider are things that allow the Spider to serve the entire setting better. The entire setting is served better if the Spider can be the Vegeta of Rokugan, and if people have to play nice with them at court because that is what maintains Order (and if the Spider must play nice at court with people they would rather be murdering because that is what maintains Order). It allows much more interesting personal and Clan-scale conflict. Spider are carrying a lot of weight because they are antagonists and antagonists are really, really important to the functioning of a story. Forcing the courtly clans to interact with them, sipping tea through clenched teeth is not something that benefits the Spider at the expense of the courtly clans, it is something that benefits the courtly clans by involving them in the conflict and giving them more opportunities to show off their personal and clan identities by placing them in situations where they are tested. In-character, Spider at court is bad for all of the other clans. Out of character, Spider at court is much better for all of them. Right now, we want to find otu the best out-of-character state, and then come up with the proper justification to arrive there.

This isn't about prizes, it's about coherent worldbuilding.

That isn't a counterargument. I am saying, the world where X is true is much better at doing what the game wants to do, than the world where X is not true. The game is being relaunched. Let's launch it as a world where X is true, and make whatever other decisions are necessary to make X true.

"It's about coherent worldbuilding" is not a coherent counterargument. I want to build a coherent world. I want to build a coherent world that accomplishes the goals it needs to accomplish. If your model of the world cannot accommodate this goal, then let's make another coherent model that can.

It's a counter-argument to the notion that my position is motivated by concerns over prizes and whatnot, however.

Also, I'm not looking at this as a reset.

And yes, the Spider always have been villains, not anti-heroes or some poor misunderstood "minority".

Acutally Vegeta revealed to Son Goku that he was not forced to join him but did it on his own will to finaly be able to dfeat him in combat. Vegeta was fully aware what he did and he did it cause he wanted to do it. He never was brainwashed or anything like this but simply never was a good guy to begin with. I mean we talk a bout a person who willingly tried to kill his son cause he wanted to intefere Cell during the absorption of cyborgs onyl cause he wanted to fight with him at full power instead of saving humanity.

But i can see why this is not a really good example I would go for chars like Seto Kaiba or other people who helped the main protagonist but only for their own benefit and terms and not sharing the same ideology of the protagonist. These people are more like where I want to see the spider. You don´t like the methods they use you despie their ideology and what they are willing to do but they are helful in keepin the things you love intact cause they also don´t want to lose the thing they want taken by another faction.

The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

Everyone who thinks Order must be maintained over Chaos, and that respecting the Spider in a courtly honorable fashion maintains Order and thus does a better job of protecting what Rokugan believes in (which is Order) than allowing the rules of the system to break because you really, really, reallllly dislike someone the rules say you should treat with courtesy.

Stop looking at this as "giving things to the Spider" or "doing things for the Spider" as if it is unfair to give them things or do things for them. That's nonsense. It's nonfunctional. That model has completely died, we are not in a mode where every prize given to one side is a prize not given to everyone else -- if you keep seeing it that way you are wrong.

The only things I am interested in giving to the Spider are things that allow the Spider to serve the entire setting better. The entire setting is served better if the Spider can be the Vegeta of Rokugan, and if people have to play nice with them at court because that is what maintains Order (and if the Spider must play nice at court with people they would rather be murdering because that is what maintains Order). It allows much more interesting personal and Clan-scale conflict. Spider are carrying a lot of weight because they are antagonists and antagonists are really, really important to the functioning of a story. Forcing the courtly clans to interact with them, sipping tea through clenched teeth is not something that benefits the Spider at the expense of the courtly clans, it is something that benefits the courtly clans by involving them in the conflict and giving them more opportunities to show off their personal and clan identities by placing them in situations where they are tested. In-character, Spider at court is bad for all of the other clans. Out of character, Spider at court is much better for all of them. Right now, we want to find otu the best out-of-character state, and then come up with the proper justification to arrive there.

This isn't about prizes, it's about coherent worldbuilding.

That isn't a counterargument. I am saying, the world where X is true is much better at doing what the game wants to do, than the world where X is not true. The game is being relaunched. Let's launch it as a world where X is true, and make whatever other decisions are necessary to make X true.

"It's about coherent worldbuilding" is not a coherent counterargument. I want to build a coherent world. I want to build a coherent world that accomplishes the goals it needs to accomplish. If your model of the world cannot accommodate this goal, then let's make another coherent model that can.

It's a counter-argument to the notion that my position is motivated by concerns over prizes and whatnot, however.

Also, I'm not looking at this as a reset.

And yes, the Spider always have been villains, not anti-heroes or some poor misunderstood "minority".

You should look at it as a reset, because this is the one chance you got to make a clean reset. L5R was not doing well, and the fact that people liked it doesn't mean they loved everything about it. The purpose of a reboot or reset is to take the parts people liked, that made them care, and build around them, emphasize them, allow them to do the most work and remove everything that undermined them or prevented people from connecting to them. Reboots (at their best) turn stories people loved in spite of the story's best efforts, into stories people just love. L5R really, really needs that treatment.

Rebooting the game, especially one that advertises player story involvement, isn't something you can do and just return to business as usual. But when the game gets taken to a new company and launched into a new form incompatible with the previous, that is the perfect time to reboot it. That opportunity won't come up again; if FFG's relaunch continued from the same story, and they realize "wow this has a lot of problems preventing us from doing what we need to be doing," then they are boned.

The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

Everyone who thinks Order must be maintained over Chaos, and that respecting the Spider in a courtly honorable fashion maintains Order and thus does a better job of protecting what Rokugan believes in (which is Order) than allowing the rules of the system to break because you really, really, reallllly dislike someone the rules say you should treat with courtesy.

Stop looking at this as "giving things to the Spider" or "doing things for the Spider" as if it is unfair to give them things or do things for them. That's nonsense. It's nonfunctional. That model has completely died, we are not in a mode where every prize given to one side is a prize not given to everyone else -- if you keep seeing it that way you are wrong.

The only things I am interested in giving to the Spider are things that allow the Spider to serve the entire setting better. The entire setting is served better if the Spider can be the Vegeta of Rokugan, and if people have to play nice with them at court because that is what maintains Order (and if the Spider must play nice at court with people they would rather be murdering because that is what maintains Order). It allows much more interesting personal and Clan-scale conflict. Spider are carrying a lot of weight because they are antagonists and antagonists are really, really important to the functioning of a story. Forcing the courtly clans to interact with them, sipping tea through clenched teeth is not something that benefits the Spider at the expense of the courtly clans, it is something that benefits the courtly clans by involving them in the conflict and giving them more opportunities to show off their personal and clan identities by placing them in situations where they are tested. In-character, Spider at court is bad for all of the other clans. Out of character, Spider at court is much better for all of them. Right now, we want to find otu the best out-of-character state, and then come up with the proper justification to arrive there.

This isn't about prizes, it's about coherent worldbuilding.

That isn't a counterargument. I am saying, the world where X is true is much better at doing what the game wants to do, than the world where X is not true. The game is being relaunched. Let's launch it as a world where X is true, and make whatever other decisions are necessary to make X true.

"It's about coherent worldbuilding" is not a coherent counterargument. I want to build a coherent world. I want to build a coherent world that accomplishes the goals it needs to accomplish. If your model of the world cannot accommodate this goal, then let's make another coherent model that can.

It's a counter-argument to the notion that my position is motivated by concerns over prizes and whatnot, however.

Also, I'm not looking at this as a reset.

And yes, the Spider always have been villains, not anti-heroes or some poor misunderstood "minority".

You should look at it as a reset, because this is the one chance you got to make a clean reset. L5R was not doing well, and the fact that people liked it doesn't mean they loved everything about it. The purpose of a reboot or reset is to take the parts people liked, that made them care, and build around them, emphasize them, allow them to do the most work and remove everything that undermined them or prevented people from connecting to them. Reboots (at their best) turn stories people loved in spite of the story's best efforts, into stories people just love. L5R really, really needs that treatment.

Rebooting the game, especially one that advertises player story involvement, isn't something you can do and just return to business as usual. But when the game gets taken to a new company and launched into a new form incompatible with the previous, that is the perfect time to reboot it. That opportunity won't come up again; if FFG's relaunch continued from the same story, and they realize "wow this has a lot of problems preventing us from doing what we need to be doing," then they are boned.

You're right it is a chance for a fresh start. Which is exactly why these threads have been coming up. Trying to come up with a way for the Spider to not be pariahs. The crux of the issue is that (some)pro spider players want to change the way everything else works to stay the same, while the anti spider side of the argument doesn't feel that changing that much of the setting just for the sake of spider being able to keep the taint/be bad guys is healthy for the game.

I think the problem thatvtried to be solved with the Colonies storyline waa to allownthe Spiders to be the Empire's monsters on a leash. The problem is without an external threat, the monstersbare either a punching bag or a serious threat.

What can the Spider, as a whole, be that is not Covered either primarily or secondarily by another Great Clan?

I'd make an argument that the Spider clan aren't the problem, it's every other clan that need to be looked at.

There is a common storyline pattern that crops up where a big bad arises and all the great clans band together and defeated it, because they are the good guys. I can understand the appeal of it from the player base, (almost) everyone wants to be the hero. For a game like L5R though, with multiple factions nipping at each others heels it doesn't work. You might be better off having a single faction for the great clans and a single faction for the bad guys and play out the clear-cut struggle of good versus evil.

This tends to be a thing more in the RPG than the CCG, since the CCG by necessity paints each clan as a unified whole. But I agree, I like it when the clans have to struggle with evil internally as well as externally.

The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

And that is the point, if you make them welcome in Rokugan, so that they feel it is their home too, they would no longer want to destroy it. It is only the intollerance and mentality to want to keep them outside that makes them hate the rest of Rokugan. Basic integration politics 101.

I would be down with this, but it seems the Spider aren't. The Spider (or at the very least, a loud group within them) see Jigoku as a core part of the Spider's identity, and are unwilling to give it up. As long as that's the case, they can never be reformed.

After all, Jigoku's explicit purpose is to overrun all of Ningen-do, and from there, Tengoku. It's a difficult position to find common ground with, to put it mildly.

I also think we should take the things people like but the point here is that we should care that all clans can get what they liked. I don´t want a scenario in which even 1 clan does not get what he liked but also I want to avoid not giving people things based on the hatred of other players who still can´t unterstand that a good story is not all time winning. Therefore if we do a reset and I hope we do one without resetting the setting as well I think Onyx is a good start cause it gives the Spide rwhat they want and provides greta opportunities to give the other clans what they want, to be victorious in heroic battles soon after.

This would not even require to change the setting so much as it would just make rokugan look a bit more pragmatic on the Spider issue when they give them the colonies and use them as protection shield. Ofcourse this would make them crease to be a great clan but this does not mean they can´t be a playable faction anymore. Also it would resolve the horde probelm the game had when Spider was Shadowlands and could set them to be Anti Heros and a dark refelction inside the setting.

And yes this works cause most higher ups are very pragmatic when it comes to politics good examples for that are how they dealt with the Harriers or Scorpions after their betrayal.

Making the empire look more pragmatic at the spider issue IS a huge change to the setting. That's what you're not getting.

Those are different scales of villains. The Harriers and Scorpions were well-meaning, but generally misguided. The Spider want to bring literal hell to earth. Turning a blind eye to that is the opposite of pragmatic.

No it is not cause the empire is allready very pragmatic when looking towards threats, conflicts, trade agreements or even marriages. What helps them best is what they do they just call it honorable cause the one who has established the culture for it was someone who intended that it could used as a tool to increase power and also was very pragmatic when establishing it. The setting itself is totaly pragmatic.

Turning a blind eye on the guys who are your meatshield tot eh west is very pragmatic cause you let them stay there cause it is the best you can do with them while getting the highest turnout for your safety

You're right it is a chance for a fresh start. Which is exactly why these threads have been coming up. Trying to come up with a way for the Spider to not be pariahs. The crux of the issue is that (some)pro spider players want to change the way everything else works to stay the same, while the anti spider side of the argument doesn't feel that changing that much of the setting just for the sake of spider being able to keep the taint/be bad guys is healthy for the game.

No, the argument is that that anti-spider people see any change that involves the Spider, no matter how beneficial it is to the Empire as a whole or to the setting in being able to do what the setting needs to do, as "just for the sake of the Spider".

None of these changes are "just for the sake of the Spider". Ever. At any point. If this is how you think of it, you are wrong. I cannot possibly make it clearer than I have. Any change that benefits the Spider is for the explicit purpose of making them better able to serve as the antagonists the setting needs. Having antagonists that are able to do what the setting needs them to be able to do is beneficial to the entire setting .

AEG's story team needed the Spider to be able to do certain things in service of the setting and theme. Due to the existing setting baggage, and problems in their own implementation, when they tried to give the Spider the ability to do the things they needed to be able to do, they messed it up and made a situation nobody liked.

The proper remedy for that is "Let's remove the setting baggage that prevented this from working and do it right this time," not "We cannot remove setting baggage or do it right this time because that would mean changing things."

Like, if it's a fresh start, nothing is 'changing'. Nothing is changing. Everything is new. If you want to bring something over, it needs to be because that element works and accomplishes what it needs to do, not because it was already there -- there is no "already there".

Those are different scales of villains. The Harriers and Scorpions were well-meaning, but generally misguided. The Spider want to bring literal hell to earth. Turning a blind eye to that is the opposite of pragmatic.

Actually, No I think most Spiders do not want that. Nobody want to live in hell, the Spider who want to bring hell on Earth are the ones who feel like Earth is already hell and just want to ruin the fun for everyone else too. But if you look at the stories told with pretty much every tainted person, it is always about getting power or revenge or something other have but the character self was envious towards others for. So, sure Jigoku as a realm might want to destroy Ningendo, but the Spider are not mindless puppets of that realm, so don't look at them like they would be. It is for a reason that they are not the Shadowlands Horde!

Pragmatic is not the word I would use for a hugely xenophobic caste based state where spilt tea can result in a centuries long blood feuds.

The meat shield argument doesn't hold weight either. Instilling an enemy at your gates to avoid having an enemy at your gates makes 0 sense.

Acutally I even doubt Daigotsu ever wanted to make Nigendo hell on earth but he just wanted to be the guy on the throne nothing more and nothing less. That is what Kanpeki inherited and Iam not even sure if he finaly sits on the throne the realtion betwen the realm and daigotsua nd Kanpeki would not change entirely so that Diagotsu gets trouble and his sons gets pressed by the Oni he used to conquer the empire cause he refuses to do the realms bidding after he got his revenge.

Instilling an enemy at my gate that I am familar with and from which I know the tactics and how to counter act against him makes totaly sense if I can prevent a total unkown enemy to overun me with his completly new tactics. Actually having the Spider indoubt get slaughtered by new enemies give the empire the time to adjust towards their tactics and techniques which other wise would reuslt in a major defeat of their own forces caus elakc of time to adjust.

And yes not all Rokugani are pragmatic but the leaders most of the time are. Thats why you can have blood feuds but thinsg liek the harries can get ignored without disbanding a clan over it.

I would be down with this, but it seems the Spider aren't. The Spider (or at the very least, a loud group within them) see Jigoku as a core part of the Spider's identity, and are unwilling to give it up. As long as that's the case, they can never be reformed.

After all, Jigoku's explicit purpose is to overrun all of Ningen-do, and from there, Tengoku. It's a difficult position to find common ground with, to put it mildly.

Exactly what I've been trying to say -- if the Spider want to be accepted within Rokugan, then they need to ditch their connection to Jigoku.

Trying to change what Jigoku is just so that the Spider can have it both ways, have their cake and eat it to, is a non-starter.

I would be down with this, but it seems the Spider aren't. The Spider (or at the very least, a loud group within them) see Jigoku as a core part of the Spider's identity, and are unwilling to give it up. As long as that's the case, they can never be reformed.

After all, Jigoku's explicit purpose is to overrun all of Ningen-do, and from there, Tengoku. It's a difficult position to find common ground with, to put it mildly.

Exactly what I've been trying to say -- if the Spider want to be accepted within Rokugan, then they need to ditch their connection to Jigoku.

Trying to change what Jigoku is just so that the Spider can have it both ways, have their cake and eat it to, is a non-starter.

Hmm this seems not really a good deal cause the Spider would part with one of the defining points of them while no other clan had to do this. The Mantis for example never needed to give up their rading, traiding or their gaijin contact when they where acepted into rokugan.

I see no problem with the change because in the end it is just a fiction and a fiction can change if it would be bette and this clearly is the case here. Chaning the setting at a reastart is a good idea cause this way we can solve the problems which exist in the curtrent setting like for example the Spider clan.

But this even is refused by people so maybe you don´t really want a solution but just that the spider creases to be what the spider players like at them so that you finaly have your way and the spider fades into a npc faction again cause nobody want to play what they became.

And now this thread has gone from "How can we integrate the Spider?" to "Excellent display why the Spider can't be integrated."

*groan*