It seems it would be a very high experience thing for a character to do anyway, not to mention needing to actually get 2 double bladed Lightsabers with crystals, just getting the weapons is going to be an epic adventure. On the subject of reality, the hard part about a Lightsaber is that the blade has no weight therefore it's almost entirely technique and understanding of the weapons that matters in their use (hence I can justify presence and intelligence being able to be used with that skill). I don't like the stacking of Cumbersome/Unweildy but just like there are talents to mitigate Cumbersom there will probably be talents to mitigate Unweildy, making the 2 Double bladed a more viable option in the correct hands.

A lightsaber is a weapon with a blade made of plasma. It cuts through nearly everything, but Jedi use it and whirl it around without a hint of fear of being auto-chopped (which, IIRC. never occurs). They are psychically attuned to the user, through a "magical crystal" that gives the plasma "magical properties". They come in different forms (shoto, double, pike, etc). They can be used with ANY Characteristic. Hell, they can even be moved around to say hello, and suddenly everyone feels the urge to attack you instead of the guy with the rifle who's taking 4 troopers each turn.

And suddenly, the problem is that a whirling staff shouldn't be allowed to be used with one hand. Based on real life physics.

Well, it's a game. You should do whatever you feel comfortable with, if GM and players all agree. Don't let anything spoil the fun.

My point, as you might have noticed, is that there are more than enough reasons to justify any of the two choices, but we don't really need any.

I can't wait to throw an Inquisitor at my players who does this... Mua Ha Ha Ha Ha

And suddenly, the problem is that a whirling staff shouldn't be allowed to be used with one hand. Based on real life physics.

Well, it's a game. You should do whatever you feel comfortable with, if GM and players all agree. Don't let anything spoil the fun.

Yup!!!!! Ultimately everyone will factor in real life physics to varying degrees. It's done pretty much in any work of fiction. Each person will have different levels of acceptability but everyone has a level at which they can no longer suspend their belief and go along with what they are viewing/reading/imaging.

The fact that it's all make believe in the end doesn't matter. Everyone will want it to obey rules, and for some people real world weapon physics are rules that should be obeyed. After all if real world physics didn't matter you wouldn't have web pages upon web pages of people trying to figure out the real world physics of a lightsabre, hyperdrives, warp drives, and transporters. I recognize the last two are Star Trek but the point remains, fans love to apply real world physics to things they see in the media they consume.

Yes, ok, but as I mentioned above, lightsabers already break a lot of real life rules. Why is it so difficult to accept they break another one?

Edit: And I mean one that seems more reasonable than some others.

But in any case, as you said, everyone has his/her own tolerance level, so...

My assumption is that the lack of specification that those are two-handed weapons are merely an oversight; I would for sure run them as requiring two hands to use in my campaign. Now, if someone temporarily needed to wield either type with one hand I'd let them, at the cost of a few setback dice or maybe a difficulty upgrade, depending on the situation.

If someone wanted to dual-wield a pair of double-bladed lightsabers I'd tell them no, as soon as I was done laughing.

There's a video out there of a guy from some Carribean or Polynessian island (could be African or Indian...) wielding two full size staffs; pretty much in the same grip position as you would need for a Saberstaff. It's FRIGHTENING; all kinds of high speed spinning and movement. I wish I could find it...

If they were "cuts-anything-lightsabers" and not sticks...

So I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it; I'd just have a plethora of excuses to use for Despair.

EDIT: Found these, which pretty much are the same style...

I honestly think that the size of the double-bladed hilt doesn't make it apt to be used two-handed. It seems too small.

I think it comes down to the hilt design. Maul's, Bastile Shan and Shatile Shan's all used double bladed lightsabters that would require two hands. Exar Kun and the Inquisitor used hilt designs that weren't big enough for two hands and thus could be used one handed.

I think if you meet the requirement for overcoming Unweidly or Cumbersome you could use it one handed. However I would also rule that while using these weapons one handed you lose the benefits these weapons normally grant you.

Shatile's Master duel wielded both his single bladed and her double bladed sabers and was awesome doing so.

Yes, ok, but as I mentioned above, lightsabers already break a lot of real life rules. Why is it so difficult to accept they break another one?

Edit: And I mean one that seems more reasonable than some others.

But in any case, as you said, everyone has his/her own tolerance level, so...

Likely because real world staffs don't have an end that you can't hold while spinning. A double bladed lightsabre has a much smaller area to wield it with. Real world staffs you can grab anywhere in the spinning process and not burn your own hand off. So I imagine people who have trouble with someone using two at the same time involves the fact that there are parts of the weapon that simply can't be touched and thus it makes it harder and less likely to be pulled off.

Lightsabre's in general don't break that many rules in regards to weapons use. Most of the rules they break are physics rules. You don't really see them using a lightsabre in a way that you wouldn't expect them to use a sword. I've yet to see a lightsabre used in a way that you can't use normal weapons, with the exception of cutting through stuff. But that's more a physics rule than a weapon rule. Granted the likely reason they don't break that many weapons rules is ultimately the stunt actors are just applying real world weapon techniques to make believe laser swords but still. Most lightsabre battles can be (and have been) recreated by fans using fake lightsabres which do (by their very nature) follow real world weapon physics.

It's also worth pointing out ...... gamers take their weapons very seriously. Like super seriously.

Shatile's Master duel wielded both his single bladed and her double bladed sabers and was awesome doing so.

That he did. But I wouldn't let him apply the double bladed sabre's linked quality. He would just be using the two weapon fighting rules. Being a Jedi Master though I imagine he has maxed ranks in Lightsaber and at least a Brawn of 4 (and likely an Agility of 3). Based on the fight he doesn't exactly use the double bladed lightsabre in a fashion that would appear that he was actually making use of the linked quality anyway.

Yes, ok, but as I mentioned above, lightsabers already break a lot of real life rules. Why is it so difficult to accept they break another one?

Edit: And I mean one that seems more reasonable than some others.

But in any case, as you said, everyone has his/her own tolerance level, so...

Likely because real world staffs don't have an end that you can't hold while spinning. A double bladed lightsabre has a much smaller area to wield it with. Real world staffs you can grab anywhere in the spinning process and not burn your own hand off. So I imagine people who have trouble with someone using two at the same time involves the fact that there are parts of the weapon that simply can't be touched and thus it makes it harder and less likely to be pulled off.

Yes, but it also works in a very different way. It doesn't need the momentum as a common staff would. It only needs to touch you, and it cuts like a hot knife through butter. Yes, I know, I was the one who referred to a "whirling staff", but I took for granted it was plasma. Sorry for that, my fault.

Lightsabre's in general don't break that many rules in regards to weapons use. Most of the rules they break are physics rules. You don't really see them using a lightsabre in a way that you wouldn't expect them to use a sword. I've yet to see a lightsabre used in a way that you can't use normal weapons, with the exception of cutting through stuff. But that's more a physics rule than a weapon rule. Granted the likely reason they don't break that many weapons rules is ultimately the stunt actors are just applying real world weapon techniques to make believe laser swords but still. Most lightsabre battles can be (and have been) recreated by fans using fake lightsabres which do (by their very nature) follow real world weapon physics.

I have yet to find a sword which is magical, is connected psychicaly to its user and is used with a Characteristic such as Presence, Intelect or the like. Not to talk about the inherent connection with the Force of the one who's wielding it. Because again, and sorry for being reiterative, in a world where people can toss Star Destroyers, become invisible or be inside the brains of a complete battlefleet, using your connection with the weapon and with the Force to use a double-bladed lightsaber with one hand is totally impossible.

Notice I didn't say they break weapon rules. I talked about real life rules, but not only weapons.

PS: Really sorry if my English is awkward. I try as hard as I can, really.

I think the main problem here is that you are thinking of a double-sided lightsaber as a staff. It isn't. The "blades" weigh nothing, and as such do not exert any forces on the user, they do not have the momentum that a traditional physical staff has, hence the need to brace and use your body to stop and redirect a traditional staff while spinning.

Think of them more as baton's, of course, with one in each hand they aren't going to be blocking any strikes with them, unless they have unusually strong wrists. but being able to use two at the same time would not be a problem.

Think of them more as baton's, of course, with one in each hand they aren't going to be blocking any strikes with them, unless they have unusually strong wrists. but being able to use two at the same time would not be a problem.

you could block by holding them with 1 of each of the blades crossed over each other, the other 2 blades would be out behind you at an angle... dam it I'm thinking real world again!

Edit: i agree with your baton analogy though. i had imagined them as large pepper grinders!

Lightsabre's in general don't break that many rules in regards to weapons use. Most of the rules they break are physics rules. You don't really see them using a lightsabre in a way that you wouldn't expect them to use a sword. I've yet to see a lightsabre used in a way that you can't use normal weapons, with the exception of cutting through stuff. But that's more a physics rule than a weapon rule. Granted the likely reason they don't break that many weapons rules is ultimately the stunt actors are just applying real world weapon techniques to make believe laser swords but still. Most lightsabre battles can be (and have been) recreated by fans using fake lightsabres which do (by their very nature) follow real world weapon physics.

I have yet to find a sword which is magical, is connected psychicaly to its user and is used with a Characteristic such as Presence, Intelect or the like. Not to talk about the inherent connection with the Force of the one who's wielding it. Because again, and sorry for being reiterative, in a world where people can toss Star Destroyers, become invisible or be inside the brains of a complete battlefleet, using your connection with the weapon and with the Force to use a double-bladed lightsaber with one hand is totally impossible.

Notice I didn't say they break weapon rules. I talked about real life rules, but not only weapons.

PS: Really sorry if my English is awkward. I try as hard as I can, really.

Because people have limits on how many rules can be broken. It's one thing to say that a person using a mystical magical power to toss Star Destroyers. It's easy to kinda picture that. But just because that's easy doesn't mean people can then translate that to also picturing a person using two lightsabre pikes at once. As I've stated everyone's level of realness differs, but ultimately we all want to believe what we see and imagine. There are differing points at which a person can no longer suspend belief. Just because they suspend it for one aspect doesn't mean they are going to suspend it for all aspects. Thus comparing weapons discussion to other parts of the setting is fruitless. People who can't picture a person not using a double sabre with anything but two hands is making it very clear that that's where the line is being drawn. Appeals to mystical aspects of the setting mean nothing. At best such people need to be moved by understanding where their logic lies and then seeing if you can help them see weapons in a new light. But reminding them that "well there is the Force" only really causes them to dig in.

See the person's logic. Then see if you can help them see past that logic to something else. But keep it within the current frame of reference. Pointing out that a person can wield two staffs at once if skilled enough is far more effect to changing their mind than just falling back on "well you can also toss Star Destroyers in this setting".

The Force is a very important part of using a lightsaber, and of the lightsaber's own existance. That's why it's connected. But as I said several times before, everyone do as they want in their own games. I just fail to see why you insist on using two different logics for things that should use just a single one. But this is getting a bit tiring, and maybe we're tiring the rest, and we're never going to agree anyway, so...

The Force is a very important part of using a lightsaber, and of the lightsaber's own existance. That's why it's connected. But as I said several times before, everyone do as they want in their own games. I just fail to see why you insist on using two different logics for things that should use just a single one. But this is getting a bit tiring, and maybe we're tiring the rest, and we're never going to agree anyway, so...

Likely because the Force isn't required to actually use a lightsabre. Oh sure if you want to use Cunning instead of Brawn you'll need that connection to the Force, but ultimately a non Force user can be just as good as a Force user in the basics of wielding a lightsabre. Which is likely why two frames are being used. The Force may be connected, but it's not required. The setting provides plenty of examples of people who don't use the Force but are fairly good at using a lightsabre. Thus we still have to deal with what is realistic for a humanoid figure to do.

Yeah, whatever you say, man.

Yeah, whatever you say, man.

What can I say, I enjoy exploring how others think. Cognitive science is a very interesting field and we learn a lot about fandom when we consider the limits of believability for people. Granted this isn't how I see the matter personally. Like I said earlier if you meet the requirements for overcoming Unwieldy and Cumbersome then I don't see anything wrong with using two at once, I just wouldn't allow for their added benefits to be applied one handed. I feel that's a fair trade off. But by that same token I don't begrudge anyone who wouldn't allow it. I understand that their logic sees things differently and for them, while this may be a mystical setting, some things do have limits.

We all have limits on what we are willing to believe afterall.

It's a bit strange to say "oh sure you overcome the Unweildy rating, but you're not getting the benefits that brings, let's ignore that these weapons cost you double too"

It would make sense if you where to say "Nope, not happening" but to go halfway is odd to me.

I also don't understand the Phisics reason behind not being able to hold a metal cylinder in each hand and spin them around. The hilt of a LS can't be that heavy, there are strength or agility limitations. What's the problem?

I'll go a little off topic with this but bear with me. there is a description for the Heavy Repeating Blaster in EotE and AoR that states "requires 2 people to use" yet the Devs have clarified that if a PC overcomes the Cumbersom rating of 5 is they may use it on their own.

If a player is able to walk around with a giant Gatling Gun then PC's are meant to do some awesome stuff. This whole system is supposed to allow epic and cinematic story telling, with incredible feats and big stories.

For me, wielding 2 Double Bladed Lightsabers is epic, is cinematic, and just downright bad a**. Players are welcome to at my table.

It's a bit strange to say "oh sure you overcome the Unweildy rating, but you're not getting the benefits that brings, let's ignore that these weapons cost you double too"

Because I assume that you hitting with the other end when making use of Linked. And while I think you can hold and use two of them at once I don't feel you'd be as effective at it if you were just using it with two hands. I just don't picture them being able to hit with the second strike well enough for Link to kick in. *shrugs* Granted it's somewhat moot. You are still getting two strikes whether it's from the Link trait or the two weapon fighting success. So in the end you get the same result.

I also don't understand the Phisics reason behind not being able to hold a metal cylinder in each hand and spin them around. The hilt of a LS can't be that heavy, there are strength or agility limitations. What's the problem?

I see a difference between spinning them around and spinning them around effectively enough to actually do any real harm. There's a reason why most people who learned to fight with a staff typically only used one. It isn't because you can't use two at the same time, it's that in most cases you're more effective if you just stick to the one. Same goes for fighting with pikes and spears. Sure you can use two at the same time, but most people were more effective if they just focused on using one to it's full advantage. Hell we even know that while it's possible to use two guns at once in most real life situations you are more effective with just using one pistol as opposed to two.

I'll go a little off topic with this but bear with me. there is a description for the Heavy Repeating Blaster in EotE and AoR that states "requires 2 people to use" yet the Devs have clarified that if a PC overcomes the Cumbersom rating of 5 is they may use it on their own.

If a player is able to walk around with a giant Gatling Gun then PC's are meant to do some awesome stuff. This whole system is supposed to allow epic and cinematic story telling, with incredible feats and big stories.

Yes but a GM is within his rights to say that he just doesn't picture that working for a PC. Even if the dev's might say "sure go with it" it isn't unreasonable to disallow it. As I stated everyone has limits on what they find believable. And if you don't find it believable you won't find it epic or cool. We all operate with different ideas on what constitutes epic, cool, and cinematic. For some an epic and cinematic story is one that feels real too. Disallowing such things doesn't mean the person isn't trying to tell an epic and cinematic story. It just means his story is going to be different from yours.

Lets not equate your version of cool as everyones version of cool.

For me, wielding 2 Double Bladed Lightsabers is epic, is cinematic, and just downright bad a**. Players are welcome to at my table.

To be fair I'm not saying a person can't do it. Or that by doing it they won't be epic and/or cinematic. But I also don't translate the qualities of epic and cinematic to mean "I hit the bad guy more times with these two weapons". In the long run the person using just one is going to get the same number of attacks as the person using two. Epic and cinematic would come from how we describe the fight scene. Not how many times the character can hit the the guy with his glow sticks.

In the SWTOR opening cinematic Shatile's master makes use of both a double bladed lightsabre and a normal lightsabre. The battle is pretty epic and cool but he doesn't exactly hit more often by using those two weapons. Thus we can see epic and cinematic doesn't mean hit more often. The battle is overall, cinematic, cool, and epic but even for a Jedi Master with likely high Brawn/Agility/Lightsabre he doesn't make contact with the two Sith he's fighting more often.

It's still bad ass though.

Also allowing one PC to get off 4 strikes changes the balance of combat a bit. Most things aren't going to withstand 4 strikes very well. This can end combat well before the scene becomes epic and cinematic. Then bad guys either need to be buffed up, thus making them a bit harder for anyone not wielding 2 double bladed lightsabres at once, or there is less for other characters to do so combat pretty much becomes dominated by the guy with 2 double bladed lightsabres.

I want the guy using a double bladed lightsabre two handed to be just as effective as the guy who decides to use two of them. I don't want the rest of the PC's to feel that in order to compete they all need to start using two double bladed lightsabres. I see no reason why someone who is using two of them to be bad ass needs to be more mechanically effective then the person who decides not to.

I've yet to see a lightsabre used in a way that you can't use normal weapons, with the exception of cutting through stuff.

I do not know, but I think that parrying ranged weapons and even reflecting the bolts back at the shooters or other attackers is rather beyond what normal weapons do. Parrying/catching Force Lighting, too. It is all a bit hazy, and I am pretty sure that capable fighters can make good use of lightsabers without the Force, but there are obviously things that are beyond those without that bond.

My assumption is that the lack of specification that those are two-handed weapons are merely an oversight; I would for sure run them as requiring two hands to use in my campaign. Now, if someone temporarily needed to wield either type with one hand I'd let them, at the cost of a few setback dice or maybe a difficulty upgrade, depending on the situation.

If someone wanted to dual-wield a pair of double-bladed lightsabers I'd tell them no, as soon as I was done laughing.

This pretty perfectly sums up my opinion on the matter perfectly. These weapons are routinely described as two-handers in practically every piece of media ever see, the fighting-styles in which we see them used are basically always two-handed, etc., etc. IMO it's pretty obvious that the omission the lines that qualify these weapons as requiring two-hands to use effectively is an oversight.

Yes we Kao Cen Darach use a two-bladed 'saber in one hand, but there's no evidence that he was gaining any mechanical benefit from it, and I still little issue in allowing a double 'saber to be used as a single saber without the linked quality.

Additionally, there may be times when a 'saber pike may need to be used one-handed (e.g. holding on to a moving vehicle with one hand, stabbing at something with the pike in the other). In such a case, I'd probably say the weapon is *more* cumbersome, which (unless I'm mistaken) should add a setback die to the roll unless the character has a large brawn score, in which case I think no penalty may be justified.

However, both those cases are exceptional and specific, and hence not nearly enough evidence to justify any claim that these weapons are intended to be one-handers.

Do whatever you want at your table, but I think these cases are pretty obvious.

using a spear one handed is actually in many ways easier mounted. point at enemy right by. I would probably give a boost die. and you only need one hand to do it.

I've yet to see a lightsabre used in a way that you can't use normal weapons, with the exception of cutting through stuff.

I do not know, but I think that parrying ranged weapons and even reflecting the bolts back at the shooters or other attackers is rather beyond what normal weapons do. Parrying/catching Force Lighting, too. It is all a bit hazy, and I am pretty sure that capable fighters can make good use of lightsabers without the Force, but there are obviously things that are beyond those without that bond.

When blaster bolts are real and Force Lightening becomes real you might have a point. But as it currently stands both are done using special effects and computers and are nothing more than the actor waving their mock lightabre in the air. The actual combat though, where you know they swing the blades at each other is pretty tame. Stuff that is replicatable with swords or a toy lightsabre from the toy store. So my point still stands, for the most part the use of a lightsabre is the same as normal weapons they are similar to.

Afterall the point you decided to quote was in relation to the difference between lightsabre combat and real world combat. Given the full context of my sentence I think it is clear that I wasn't talking about the stuff that the good people at ILM do to make lightsabre combat more exciting.

I'm thinking too much like Dynasty Warriors whilst your thinking the battle of Hastings. I had always imagined the damage from a Lightsaber came from the plasma blade not the effort put in by the combatant to hit hard with it. But I do take your point, if you're not able to apply enough force (not The Force) to your attack swing then your not going to do as much damage.