So this actually is a genuine question for the community. And yes, I am considering all of the above-stated heresies. I think.

In preparation for Sullust, I am trying to settle on my Imperial force, and would appreciate some feedback on a couple of things. Some general constraints on my list:

• My available ship pool consists of three (3) Victory star destroyers, two (2) Gladiator star destroyers, and two (2) imperial squadron packs.
• I am about 90% sure that I want a four ship build, but am also considering some three ship builds if they includes a credible Rhymer-ball threat.
• No two-ship/dedicated carrier builds for me at this tournament. At least not in the 300 point matches.

My predicament is that my current ship pool will not permit a four ship build with two Vics, two Glads, Screed, ACMs on both Glads, and Demolisher (308 points), which is basically everything I want. So my question is, what alternative build will get me the most mileage. Some of the variants I am considering:

1. Vic I (Screed), Vic I, Glad I (Demolisher), Glad I: 294 points [four ships, one upgrade, 6 bid]
2. Vic I (Screed), Vic I, Glad I (Demolisher + ACMs), Rhymer, TIE Bomber (x1), TIE Advanced (x2): 294 points [three ships, two upgrades, Rhymer+3, 6 bid]
3. Vic I (Motti), Vic I, Glad I (ACMs), Glad I (ACMs): 296 points [four ships, two upgrades, 4 bid]
4. Vic I (Motti + Gunnery Team), Vic I (Gunnery Team), Glad I, Glad I: 296 points [four ships, two upgrades, 4 bid]
5. Vic I (Screed), Vic I, Glad I (ACMs), Glad I (ACMs): 298 points [four ships, two upgrades, 2 bid]
6. Vic I (Screed + Gunnery Team), Vic I (Gunnery Team), Glad I, Glad I: 298 points [four ships, two upgrades, 2 bid]
7. Vic I (Motti), Vic I, Glad I (Demolisher + ACMs), Glad I: 299 points [four ships, two upgrades, 1 bid]
8. Vic I (Screed + Gunnery Team + Warlord), Glad I (ACM + Demolisher), Glad I (ACM), Rhymer, TIE Bomber (x1), TIE Advanced (x2): 299 points [three ships, five upgrades, Rhymer+3, 1 bid]
9. Vic I (Screed + Gunnery Team), Glad I (ACM + Demolisher), Glad I (ACM), Rhymer, TIE Bomber (x2), TIE Advanced (x2): 300 points [three ships, four upgrades, Rhymer+4, no bid]

My basic conflicts are over Motti vs. Screed, ACMs or Gunnery Teams, and whether I need Demolisher in a four ship build. Screed's ability will combo well with the two glads, but isn't doing much for the Vics' red dice at long range (unless the entire roll whiffs, at which point his effect is negligible), while Motti gives me six more hull across my fleet (26 to 32 hull, or the equivalent of another Glad [23% increase]). I've always run ACMs on my glads because of the +2 damage potential (guaranteed with Screed), so I'm having a hard time even thinking about letting them go. But I feel like Glads without ACMs have better damage output than Vics without gunnery teams, especially when the Vics are at long-range. So is it better to have the guaranteed +4 damage per round with the ACMs, or +6 red dice (and +2 targets) per round from the Vics to use against long-range kiters like AFIIs?

While I love Demolisher, I'm trying to figure out whether it's a luxury in a four-ship build. Against 2-3 ship builds, if I am first player I can basically have two-thirds of demolisher if I use last activation of each round to move a Glad into double-arc attack position, and then the first activation of the next round to fire. Of course, in a perfect world I'd also like to have a free attack in the first round, but since taking Demolisher in four ship builds requires me to drop ACMs on both glads, I think I'd rather have a guaranteed +4 damage per round on two glads than Demolisher on only one. Higher bids will of course help me to get first player where my opponent's list would make that advantageous.

The three-ship builds let me have both, but with one less ship activation. I would be hoping to make up the lost damage output with a (mostly) self-sufficient Rhymer ball throwing 4-5 black dice at medium range. The two TIE Advanced would also offer some flexibility against enemy bomber swarms. But it is one less ship (with everything that entails)...

Any thoughts/comments/denouncements for heresy would be appreciated.

from my experiences destroying imperials with my rebels motti doesnt really do much for your fleet hp as he is always the first ship to get downed, and 2 more hull isnt really gonna stop that.

from my experiences destroying imperials with my rebels motti doesnt really do much for your fleet hp as he is always the first ship to get downed, and 2 more hull isnt really gonna stop that.

that seems more the player's fault than motti's

Of the builds... #5. Screed (offense) beats Motti (defense).

My vote is for #5. ACMs are devestating!

None of the above. Buy another Gladiator and run 3 (or 4) of them.

3 Vic's beat 4 Glads according to the vassal tournament.

I tend to play a bit defensively, so would lean towards 4 rather than 5. But that's a habit I'm trying to get myself out of anyway, so maybe you shouldn't listen to me there!

None of the above. Buy another Gladiator and run 3 (or 4) of them.

Loaned a friend my Gladiator so he could run three of them in a game last night. It's a pretty intimidating combo to have coming at you, and leaves room for Screed, ACMs, titles and the like.

3 Vic's beat 4 Glads according to the vassal tournament.

He and I agreed, that was an overlap fluke (7 PIXELS) that if it hadn't happened I easily would have had the game.

Thanks for the feedback so far, I really appreciate it.

Of the builds... #5. Screed (offense) beats Motti (defense).

My vote is for #5. ACMs are devestating!

The more I think about it, the less I like the idea of leaving home without ACMs on the Glads (and definitely if I take Screed over Motti). I'm still torn on the Gunnery Teams on the Vics, though. On average rolls, three red dice land 2.25 hits (before a dice is evaded, rerolled, etc), so being able to have two more three-dice rolls (4.5 damage) at longer range with gunnery teams seems at least on-par with the +4 damage from two ACM volleys. Though that would be +4 damage per Glad if both have double-arc shots... so maybe I'm not as torn as I thought I was.

None of the above. Buy another Gladiator and run 3 (or 4) of them.

If only I had infinite resources (or wasn't the only guy in my play-group who invested in non-core set imperials ).

Not sure how I would feel facing a 4 Glad build with two Vics and two Glads... the four Glads will hurt, but even with ACMs, that's a lot of shields/hull for the glads to burn through, plus the odds of using my own black dice on the Vics would go up significantly. Would definitely want Screed and ACMs on my side though. Battle royale, I guess.

I would suggest your initial wish list was mostly correct, actually.

5 is probably the best list, as a result. Tons of hull, tons of firepower, four activations.

You could go with Demolisher over ACM on both glads, but I find at four activations with two VSDs, I prefer the ACM given Screed.

It seems so sad to go into battle w/o Demolisher...

Buy another Glad.

Problem solved!

I tend to play a bit defensively, so would lean towards 4 rather than 5. But that's a habit I'm trying to get myself out of anyway, so maybe you shouldn't listen to me there!

Me too, actually. I usually prefer going second, read and react. With tournament scoring rules, though, I'm trying to force myself to be more aggressive. On the other hand, there's something comforting about +25% hull... maybe I just need to let go of my fears.

My other draw to Motti is for the slightly higher bid. 2 vs. 4 doesn't seem like a lot, but there seem to be a lot of lists in the 298-300 range, so I feel like having those extra two points might net me 1-2 more initiative wins. With four activations, that's a chance to activate two ships in a row against three-ship builds as first player (and three ships in a row against dual carrier lists). Not sure if that's enough to give up on Screed's guaranteed damage, but I think that's what's holding me back from fully committing.

I would suggest your initial wish list was mostly correct, actually.

5 is probably the best list, as a result. Tons of hull, tons of firepower, four activations.

You could go with Demolisher over ACM on both glads, but I find at four activations with two VSDs, I prefer the ACM given Screed.

#5 was actually the initial list I had settled on, until I got in the shower last night (literally, as it turn out--no smelling salts, though). Emerged of course with some other variations, just wanting to make sure I covered everything. I've definitely settled on the ACMs if I run Screed, the guaranteed bonus damage is just too high (and consistent) to pass up, I feel.

It seems so sad to go into battle w/o Demolisher...

Buy another Glad.

Problem solved!

Yeah, cutting Demolisher was hard, but I do feel that the two ACMs will probably get me more damage over the course of my matches, especially with four activations (if I am first player).

I cannot wait for 400 points, though. Thanks all for the feedback!

Agreed with your comments.

In particular, I feel that with 2 VSD, you are heading into the territory where Demolisher is less effective (dropping from "Amazeballs" to "pretty **** good"). With 3 Glads, you can hunt in a pack with them and overwhelm any given foe. However, with 2 VSD, it often benefits the list to "slow play" the Glads a bit more, which reduces the value of an early rush and instead makes you like a wave slowly rolling across the board.

Thus, I'm not against ACMx2 on the Glads instead, given how insane the interaction with Screed is.

It really depends on what you are looking for in your fleet. Motti helps with survivability but doesn't bring damage. Screed ensures damage and critical effects. Tarkin helps to push the ships to the limit.

I feel Motti is best when played with carriers, while Screed prefers ship to ship. Screed ensures ACM or any blue critical effects, while Motti doesn't really enhance the performance of the ships. So, eithe ryou enter a grinding match in which your front arc may lose the ability to shoot effectively, either you compensate by adding damage through squadrons.

Not sure if that's enough to give up on Screed's guaranteed damage, but I think that's what's holding me back from fully committing.

Given that a Gladiator fires 4 black dice, and that each dice has 2 faces with crits on them, you're still talking something like a 70% chance of rolling a crit on the side arc. Sure, you've still got Mon Mothma evade tokens to worry about, but it's not an awful chance. And if you have the front arc firing on the target too that's almost a 50% chance to get a black crit on the two dice there. If you're lining up both arcs you're looking at almost 85% chance to trigger ACM without Screed, and that's without any Concentrate Fire commands.

I mean, don't get me wrong. Guaranteed to get it twice is better than a 50% chance on one and a 70% on the other. But it comes down to what you're willing to sacrifice in order to get those ACM triggers.

It really depends on what you are looking for in your fleet. Motti helps with survivability but doesn't bring damage. Screed ensures damage and critical effects. Tarkin helps to push the ships to the limit.

I feel Motti is best when played with carriers, while Screed prefers ship to ship. Screed ensures ACM or any blue critical effects, while Motti doesn't really enhance the performance of the ships. So, eithe ryou enter a grinding match in which your front arc may lose the ability to shoot effectively, either you compensate by adding damage through squadrons.

Yeah, Tarkin with 4 ships (or 5!!!) is going to be amazing. For any of the squadron-less builds, all damage is going to come from ship-to-ship combat, where Screed really shines. It does seem to get harder to drop Screed the more I think about it...

Not sure if that's enough to give up on Screed's guaranteed damage, but I think that's what's holding me back from fully committing.

Given that a Gladiator fires 4 black dice, and that each dice has 2 faces with crits on them, you're still talking something like a 70% chance of rolling a crit on the side arc. Sure, you've still got Mon Mothma evade tokens to worry about, but it's not an awful chance. And if you have the front arc firing on the target too that's almost a 50% chance to get a black crit on the two dice there. If you're lining up both arcs you're looking at almost 85% chance to trigger ACM without Screed, and that's without any Concentrate Fire commands.

I mean, don't get me wrong. Guaranteed to get it twice is better than a 50% chance on one and a 70% on the other. But it comes down to what you're willing to sacrifice in order to get those ACM triggers.

This is very insightful. I did some brief probability checks on the chance of a crit rolling various numbers of black dice, and came up with similar numbers. The fact that ACMs have such a high, innate chance to trigger is probably why they're such a valued upgrade. That said, in the two or three matches where I've run glads without Screed, there's always been at least one salvo where I needed ACMs to trigger (ok, ok, maybe just "reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally wanted"... which would be every volley) and they didn't. Maybe it's my overly cautious approach, but my thinking is that over Swiss tournament rounds, that's likely to happen more than once, and if it happens in a round's critical engagement, that could be the difference between 9 points, 5 points, and 0 points. Even though Screed can't trigger both attacks, if I get 3-4 rounds of combat in, that's 6-8 corrections available for bad whiffs. Even with horrendously bad luck, that should cover a multitude of cold dice.

I guess what it comes down to is trading Screed's ability to avail myself of guaranteed damage for 6 more hull and two more points that I wouldn't allocate to any ship or upgrade, but rather to a bid. Frankly, while the hull is a nice side benefit, the real reason I'm exploring the Screed for Motti trade is the bid, because if I face off against 2 or 3 ship lists, being the first player and going last-first makes up for most of the loss of Demolisher, I think. That said, I guess there's no real guarantee that I'd win initiative with a 4 point bid, and no guarantee that I'd lose initiative with a 2 point bid (or that if I lose initiative that I'll go second instead of first), while Screed does offer a guarantee...

It really depends on what you are looking for in your fleet. Motti helps with survivability but doesn't bring damage. Screed ensures damage and critical effects. Tarkin helps to push the ships to the limit.

I feel Motti is best when played with carriers, while Screed prefers ship to ship. Screed ensures ACM or any blue critical effects, while Motti doesn't really enhance the performance of the ships. So, eithe ryou enter a grinding match in which your front arc may lose the ability to shoot effectively, either you compensate by adding damage through squadrons.

Yeah, Tarkin with 4 ships (or 5!!!) is going to be amazing. For any of the squadron-less builds, all damage is going to come from ship-to-ship combat, where Screed really shines. It does seem to get harder to drop Screed the more I think about it...

Tarkin works really well with 2+ ships. I faced a 2 Glad + Squadrons + Tarkin list that was surprisingly good. The ability for Tarkin to fit multiple roles is pretty darn amazing. Secondary token giver ? Check. Allowing to couple tokens + dials ? Check.

Regarding your other post with Motti, once again, Motti works well with Squadron heavy builds. 2 Vics, 1 I and 1 II, each managing a wing (Bomber + Advanced / Fighters + Interceptors) will make it very nasty, while still tanking like a pro and dishing out damage from long range.

VSD I with Enhanced Armaments to prevent the flanking, moving at Speed 2. VSD II moving at Speed 1 is going to be painful for the opponent. He might kill one, but he'll surely not kill both.

If you don't have squadrons, your Fighters/Interceptors can still do damage to ships and your Rhymer Ball will also stay untouched while dishing out 3-4 damage per turn on a ship...

Tarkin works really well with 2+ ships. I faced a 2 Glad + Squadrons + Tarkin list that was surprisingly good. The ability for Tarkin to fit multiple roles is pretty darn amazing. Secondary token giver ? Check. Allowing to couple tokens + dials ? Check.

Regarding your other post with Motti, once again, Motti works well with Squadron heavy builds. 2 Vics, 1 I and 1 II, each managing a wing (Bomber + Advanced / Fighters + Interceptors) will make it very nasty, while still tanking like a pro and dishing out damage from long range.

VSD I with Enhanced Armaments to prevent the flanking, moving at Speed 2. VSD II moving at Speed 1 is going to be painful for the opponent. He might kill one, but he'll surely not kill both.

If you don't have squadrons, your Fighters/Interceptors can still do damage to ships and your Rhymer Ball will also stay untouched while dishing out 3-4 damage per turn on a ship...

No argument there. While I love running squadron builds (and have been schooled by dual VSD carrier builds on more than one occasion), I don't think that's the direction I want to go in this particular tournament, at least for the Swiss rounds. Tarkin + ISD + VSDs + squadrons once wave II hits, though... very exciting...

I did have a couple of three-ship builds with one carrier and one squadron wing (4-5 squadrons), but the sense I'm getting is that it might be too small (or predictable) to go with just that number? I guess the thing that has always made me think twice about dual-carrier builds is how to manage the command dials. To push my survivability, I feel like I need at least some turns where I maneuver (an extra yaw for a VSD can be huge) or repair. Tarkin tokens are better than nothing, of course, but I always feel like my ability to tank is hampered by spamming squadron commands. The closest I've come to a solution is trying to figure out some way to maybe alter commands between the two carriers (both squadron to start rounds 1-2, then one squadrons and the other repairs/navs, then alternate each round), but I always seem to get the timing wrong (and with just two ships, my margin of error is quite small). Any thoughts on where I'm getting off the rails?

As I fully expect this thread to be upstaged by the preview that was released today, just wanted to thank you all for your thoughts. I've greatly appreciated the points raised, and have a lot to mull over in preparation for the Sullust event (though I'm admittedly sidetracked right now...).

Thanks again.

Victory One (front has 3 red 3 black, moves at speed 2 till it rams something)

-Dominator (+2 Blue/-2 shield per use)

-Expanded Launchers (+2 Black)

-Ordnance Teams (black rerolls)

-XX9 (moar crits) or Heavy Turrets (neuter the brace!)

-Tractor Beams (so you can catch them, raiders with Ion batteries to remove nav tokens)

-Concentrate Fire Command (+1 dice(black), can have token for 1 additonal reroll)

Crew slot is still open.

So, then Vader for all the rerolls, on top of the rerolls, or screed to spend blank red dice for black crit-hit fishing if the reroll wasn't enough for you.

That's 11 dice, 3 red, 2 blue, and 6 black, with those 6 each having a re-roll in-case of blanks, or if you are feeling lucky.

Still cheaper than the ISDs, and you still have a second attack.

Sometimes I worry that the ISD will never be able to surpass the VSD.

Anyways, you should use that at the local event, with a tiny raider+Ion batteries (to remove nav tokens for your VSD's tractor) being anti-squadron support and softening shields.

You've convinced me. The sheer insanity of rerolling up to 15 dice in a single round means this must be tried. Multiple times.

Unfortunately I don't think they'll let me run this in the Sullust swiss rounds, but if I make the final, this is definitely coming out...

Victory One (front has 3 red 3 black, moves at speed 2 till it rams something)

-Dominator (+2 Blue/-2 shield per use)

-Expanded Launchers (+2 Black)

-Ordnance Teams (black rerolls)

-XX9 (moar crits) or Heavy Turrets (neuter the brace!)

-Tractor Beams (so you can catch them, raiders with Ion batteries to remove nav tokens)

-Concentrate Fire Command (+1 dice(black), can have token for 1 additonal reroll)

Crew slot is still open.

So, then Vader for all the rerolls, on top of the rerolls, or screed to spend blank red dice for black crit-hit fishing if the reroll wasn't enough for you.

So after trying this out on Fab's, it's occurred to me that I can't have both the expanded launcher and tractor beams, since both are mods. This makes me sad. But probably keeps rebels from throwing tables.

Not that this fixes the problem, but I wonder whether I would get more use out of the Expanded Launchers mod (+2 black dice out the front), or the Rapid Reload mod (+1 black dice to each side). This makes a VSD-1's side arcs equivalent to the side arcs of an ISD-I, and with Dominator, lets you shoot six dice from your side arcs (2 red, 2 blue, 2 black) at close range, which is absurd. You could still sport the Ordnance experts + XX-9/heavy turbolasers, but the overall cost would be 5 points cheaper. What do you think?

Aw snap! The tractor beam IS a mod! Noooooo!

This. Ruins. Everything. VSD obsol33t, droids confirmed.

(okay but seriously, how did I miss that? xD. That's what I get for being stir crazy.)