I think FFG is making a mistake here, and potentially creating a lot of bad feelings against them. I see no reason of weight why the old deck cannot be valid for 2016.

Either the old or the new deck must be valid, you can't have both where you pick and choose what deck is most advantageous to you and opponents are each using different decks.

It is like that right now and I see no brimstone falling from the sky, dogs and cats living together, nor mass hysteria.

Sure, but if you'd keep that situation for a year you'd be hearing differently. People now know what will happen. There might be a bit of grumbling but that'll subside quickly.

Sure, but if you'd keep that situation for a year you'd be hearing differently. People now know what will happen. There might be a bit of grumbling but that'll subside quickly.

Like turret hate?

Like complaints about GW prices.

You underestimate the memory span of the internet.

Do so many tournament and competitive players really not want the new obstacles, ships and upgrade cards? Do people just wait until someone places well before deciding to use new EPT's? Doesn't anyone like to play with the new toys and experiment with builds? Obstacle placement is a huge factor in controlling the engagement so why wouldn't competitive players want to use that? Why wouldn't you want to try out the new ships and see how they do on the board before deciding "I unequivocally don't want these; ever."? Wouldn't any self respecting Imperial Swarm player want Epsilon Leader? Don't you want a new X-Wing model just to drool over how wonderfully like Ralph McQuarrie's concept art it is?

I'm honestly confused why so many people would ONLY want the new damage deck from the box and nothing else that forms part of the overall experience of the game.

To run 4 b-wings with acc. corrector at home I only need 4 bases and 4 dials with the correct moves on them. At a tourney I have to have the ships, tokens, upgrade cards etc. This isn't a lot different to that in all honesty. Pay to play and pay to win are a bit different and you have to pay to play. Or steal.

Sure, but if you'd keep that situation for a year you'd be hearing differently. People now know what will happen. There might be a bit of grumbling but that'll subside quickly.

Like turret hate?

Like complaints about GW prices.

You underestimate the memory span of the internet.

I don't know, I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion anyway.

They might give out the option to replace old damage decks with new for core sets bought after 1-1 but other than that? People should stop griping about little things like this.

You don't need to fly it to see the glaring problems with the fo.

-TL is worthless on two attacks when you can focus.

-ship is less efficient than the /ln because of its cost.

-aces are expensive on a four hit point ship, z-95 has shown us the issues involved there.

-full equipped aces compete with the advanced and lose.

The only thing it has is a good dial and that alone won't win you games.

The fo is a disappointment I have no desire to own and I say that as someone that owns multiples of every empire ship.

You don't need to fly it to see the glaring problems with the fo.

-TL is worthless on two attacks when you can focus.

-ship is less efficient than the /ln because of its cost.

-aces are expensive on a four hit point ship, z-95 has shown us the issues involved there.

-full equipped aces compete with the advanced and lose.

The only thing it has is a good dial and that alone won't win you games.

The fo is a disappointment I have no desire to own and I say that as someone that owns multiples of every empire ship.

If you play competitively you do have a desire to own it though.

Or don't buy it and don't play tournaments.

You don't need to fly it to see the glaring problems with the fo.

-TL is worthless on two attacks when you can focus.

-ship is less efficient than the /ln because of its cost.

-aces are expensive on a four hit point ship, z-95 has shown us the issues involved there.

-full equipped aces compete with the advanced and lose.

The only thing it has is a good dial and that alone won't win you games.

The fo is a disappointment I have no desire to own and I say that as someone that owns multiples of every empire ship.

If you play competitively you do have a desire to own it though.

Or don't buy it and don't play tournaments.

I don't play tournaments but there are people who do that don't want those fighters or to buy the core.

Telling them to just stop playing is a terrible solution and pretty heartless, these are your fellow gamers even if you disagree you should be able to empathise with them.

I see no reason of weight why the old deck cannot be valid for 2016.

The old deck has a number of balance problems--cards whose effectiveness varies from pointless to devastating. In an Escalation tournament on Saturday, there was a game where I dealt four crits against naked generic TIE/fo, two Munitions Failure and two Injured Pilot. With the new deck, those crits would actually have been consequential.

I think most of the people that aren't able to see the OP's point are those that buy one or two copies of everything anyway. But, please, understand that your attitude is not the usual one. Not even common.

The problem is that the OP's point applies only to players who want to (1) play in sanctioned tournaments and (2) weren't already buying the core set for the ships and upgrades. So you're stuck arguing that the one-or-two-copies people are a minority among tournament players, which is much more difficult to do.

Either the old or the new deck must be valid, you can't have both where you pick and choose what deck is most advantageous to you and opponents are each using different decks.

It is like that right now and I see no brimstone falling from the sky, dogs and cats living together, nor mass hysteria.

In fact that's not the case. Until January 1, 2016 it's mandatory to use the old damage deck for all sanctioned events except Worlds 2016, and it's mandatory to use the new damage deck after January 1.

If we're not talking about sanctioned tournament play, then it's up to the project PI tournament organizer [eta: I guess everyone can tell where my head is at right now...] and possibly to players individually to determine which deck they want to use in any match.

You don't need to fly it to see the glaring problems with the fo.

-TL is worthless on two attacks when you can focus.

-ship is less efficient than the /ln because of its cost.

-aces are expensive on a four hit point ship, z-95 has shown us the issues involved there.

-full equipped aces compete with the advanced and lose.

The only thing it has is a good dial and that alone won't win you games.

The fo is a disappointment I have no desire to own and I say that as someone that owns multiples of every empire ship.

I think your bias against the new movie (that is, against the new director) is confusing you a little bit. The TIE/fo is stronger defensively without any loss of defensive efficiency; it has weaker offensive efficiency, but the A-wing has the same problem (to almost precisely the same degree) and players find ways to make that work.

If the movies are great, people won't mind getting the new core set to get 3 new ships the might like for a good price.

If you only ever buy ships to build top tier tournament performing lists you're probably waac and want to wait to see how the meta fleshes out anyway so you have plenty of time to save for the core set while you wait for store championships to finish. And by then the secondary market will be flooded with new damage decks by everyone having fun already.

You don't need to fly it to see the glaring problems with the fo.

-TL is worthless on two attacks when you can focus.

-ship is less efficient than the /ln because of its cost.

-aces are expensive on a four hit point ship, z-95 has shown us the issues involved there.

-full equipped aces compete with the advanced and lose.

The only thing it has is a good dial and that alone won't win you games.

The fo is a disappointment I have no desire to own and I say that as someone that owns multiples of every empire ship.

If you play competitively you do have a desire to own it though.

Or don't buy it and don't play tournaments.

I don't want to play competitively and i don't want the new ships. I also don't want any kind of spoilers for the new film, even the name of characters and especially the name of what the rebels and the empire have become (presumably, again i don't actually want to know). I think FFG has been incredibly selfish in promoting this so early. Had this released around the time of the film then it would be different. Not everyone is a spoiler junkie.

More importantly, i have no interest in the new ships at this time, at all. The damage cards should be sold separately and telling paying customers which is what we all are they have to buy this set is unacceptable IMO.

You don't need to fly it to see the glaring problems with the fo.

-TL is worthless on two attacks when you can focus.

-ship is less efficient than the /ln because of its cost.

-aces are expensive on a four hit point ship, z-95 has shown us the issues involved there.

-full equipped aces compete with the advanced and lose.

The only thing it has is a good dial and that alone won't win you games.

The fo is a disappointment I have no desire to own and I say that as someone that owns multiples of every empire ship.

If you play competitively you do have a desire to own it though.

Or don't buy it and don't play tournaments.

I don't want to play competitively and i don't want the new ships. I also don't want any kind of spoilers for the new film, even the name of characters and especially the name of what the rebels and the empire have become (presumably, again i don't actually want to know). I think FFG has been incredibly selfish in promoting this so early. Had this released around the time of the film then it would be different. Not everyone is a spoiler junkie.

More importantly, i have no interest in the new ships at this time, at all. The damage cards should be sold separately and telling paying customers which is what we all are they have to buy this set is unacceptable IMO.

Selfish? Honestly? Wow.

FFG released this set the same day that every other license holder released their new toys to tie in with the movie. Because the owner of the I.P. wanted them to.

I'll tell you what I think is selfish. Someone expecting multiple corporations and companies to arrange their manufacturing, distribution and corporate strategies around a special snowflake, who wasn't ready for them to release their wares. God forbid a company should make some money to keep all those thousands of employees in work.

Your very first sentence states you don't want to play competitively. So why do you even want the new damage deck? You don't need it. Your old one will work the same as it always has.

Honestly, if you find it unacceptable, then don't accept it. Play something else. Good luck finding a cheaper miniatures game with tournament support. I am genuinely astounded by the amount of entitled hurt regarding the damage deck.

Surprising that a few people are actually complaining about a 25 dollar purchase.

What I really don't understand is the backlash against the call for a separate damage deck. None of use would suffer any kind of disadvantage if it was sold separately after all. The worst that could happen is that you would not want to buy it because you already have the new core set.

So what if a few people want a separate deck? Maybe it will happen, probably not. What brings about the strong responses?

You don't need to fly it to see the glaring problems with the fo.

-TL is worthless on two attacks when you can focus.

-ship is less efficient than the /ln because of its cost.

-aces are expensive on a four hit point ship, z-95 has shown us the issues involved there.

-full equipped aces compete with the advanced and lose.

The only thing it has is a good dial and that alone won't win you games.

The fo is a disappointment I have no desire to own and I say that as someone that owns multiples of every empire ship.

If you play competitively you do have a desire to own it though.

Or don't buy it and don't play tournaments.

I don't want to play competitively and i don't want the new ships. I also don't want any kind of spoilers for the new film, even the name of characters and especially the name of what the rebels and the empire have become (presumably, again i don't actually want to know). I think FFG has been incredibly selfish in promoting this so early. Had this released around the time of the film then it would be different. Not everyone is a spoiler junkie.

More importantly, i have no interest in the new ships at this time, at all. The damage cards should be sold separately and telling paying customers which is what we all are they have to buy this set is unacceptable IMO.

Selfish? Honestly? Wow.

FFG released this set the same day that every other license holder released their new toys to tie in with the movie. Because the owner of the I.P. wanted them to.

I'll tell you what I think is selfish. Someone expecting multiple corporations and companies to arrange their manufacturing, distribution and corporate strategies around a special snowflake, who wasn't ready for them to release their wares. God forbid a company should make some money to keep all those thousands of employees in work.

Your very first sentence states you don't want to play competitively. So why do you even want the new damage deck? You don't need it. Your old one will work the same as it always has.

Honestly, if you find it unacceptable, then don't accept it. Play something else. Good luck finding a cheaper miniatures game with tournament support. I am genuinely astounded by the amount of entitled hurt regarding the damage deck.

Yes that's exactly what I said: FFG shouldn't make any money.

This company's biggest problem is the fanboys who make excuses for everything. Now we have a situation that requires players to spend £30 on something they shouldn't have to otherwise buy if they don't want to just to continue playing the game.

If they don't release the decks separately they are the ones being very selfish.

How much have people spent building their collections? And they won't pay the cost of a starter set to get the new damage cards? There is more in that set than just cards, the complaints that have been posted about range rulers and tokens wearing out you would think people would welcome the new set never mind the new ships!

Try running 2 Harley's, then you'll know what spending money is really like.

It is like that right now and I see no brimstone falling from the sky, dogs and cats living together, nor mass hysteria.

There is however molten marshmallow flying everywhere.

At least I hope that's marshmallow...

"if the movie never releases"

How much have people spent building their collections? And they won't pay the cost of a starter set to get the new damage cards? There is more in that set than just cards, the complaints that have been posted about range rulers and tokens wearing out you would think people would welcome the new set never mind the new ships!

Try running 2 Harley's, then you'll know what spending money is really like.

I have no idea how much people spend, but i would think it enough that they aren't just going to give up and stop playing as some, bizarrely, recommend.

I would imagine people aren't buying new starter sets for the same reason I dont wish to: they don't want the ships and thus spending £30 for a small deck of cards is unreasonable.

These sorts of responses make me question whether those making them actually live in the real world

I'll tell you what I think is selfish. Someone expecting multiple corporations and companies to arrange their manufacturing, distribution and corporate strategies around a special snowflake, who wasn't ready for them to release their wares. God forbid a company should make some money to keep all those thousands of employees in work.

We aren't supposed to feel bad for our poor little friend The Corporation, that they cannot make more money out of us.

This is capitalism, every man for themselves.

A company needs to make most profit on the long run for the sake of their own existence, and a customer needs to make most from his or her money for the sake of his or her own interest. This is what keeps this machine running. Both sides balanced.

The corporation isn't your friend. If it presents itself like a friendly entity, it's because in the long run they have estimated that attitude towards you will report them benefits in the form of PR, captive market, happy customers, or whatever.

If they break this illusion, the customers may (and as it has just happened, will) notice the change to worse. And it is for the best of all that those customers, at the very least, make the corporation aware of their discontent. That keeps the balance.

Not everyone is so fickle of mind that a little change in the terms of the game will make them throw their whole collection to the garbage and play My Little Pony instead, specially when they have spent already some hundreds dollars on it, and feel an attachment to it. But attachment doesn't have to become blindness, and excellence is only kept when high standards are expected.

Do not mistake these unhappy customers' complains with hate. It is precisely love for the game what leads them to want to keep it as good as it has always been, rather than let it decline into another WH40K.

Dude I'm an ex GW customer the issue is not money the issue is people being forced to buy a core they don't want.

Most of us have two cores so we already have spares for everything, also third party templates exist and are legal.

Some people only play scum and get nothing from the new core.

Some of us just don't rate the new ships that highly.

And if it didn't contain a mandatory component for playing in organised events we could just not buy it, but it does.

Do you argue against people that dislike paying taxes? Do you not understand the frustration of having choice taken away from you?

People will buy the core because they have to but it's highly unreasonable to ask them to be happy about it in every case.

I Love this thread

Now we have a situation that requires players to spend £30 on something they shouldn't have to otherwise buy if they don't want to just to continue playing the game.

If they don't release the decks separately they are the ones being very selfish.

And as a million people have said a million times, the little sliver of the Venn diagram where "People Who Play Tournaments" and "People Who Can't Afford To Get / Aren't Interested In Getting Three New Ships And New Asteroids At A Discount" intersect have plenty of options that don't involve FFG having to release the new deck separately. These include but are not limited to:

1) Buy a new damage deck off eBay for probably within a pound or so of what FFG would have sold it for.

2) Buy a new core and sell the ships/cards/dice off on Ebay, leaving you with a net spend of probably cheaper than what FFG would have sold it for.

3) Borrow a deck of a chum who's bought more than one core.

Seriously, I understand the frustration of feeling like you're being forced into a purchase you wouldn't otherwise have made, but a) you, personally, aren't being forced into anything, and b) pretending that the only choices are "Spend £25 On A New Core Set" or "Don't Play Tournaments" isn't terribly helpful.

You want FFG to make money.

But argue that people should buy from the secondary market.

Perhaps there's a better way?

You want FFG to make money.

But argue that people should buy from the secondary market.

Perhaps there's a better way?

In any case, whether you buy a damage deck off someone who's bought more than one new core, or you buy a new core and sell the bits you're not interested, FFG ARE STILL MAKING MONEY FROM SOMEONE BUYING THE NEW CORE THAT DECK CAME FROM.

Seriously, I understand the frustration of feeling like you're being forced into a purchase you wouldn't otherwise have made, but a) you, personally, aren't being forced into anything, and b) pretending that the only choices are "Spend £25 On A New Core Set" or "Don't Play Tournaments" isn't terribly helpful.

Actually I only have those two choices. If I want to buy a deck of ebay the shipping alone is already $25.

So yes I am forced to buy the new starter. I enjoy X-Wing competitively and have spend too much money to just stop playing.