I haven't posted much here. I am a casual player with little experience. I'm trying to build a list that can take on 'all-comers.' Not tournament-level players, necessarily, but conceptually, the idea is similar. I want to build a 2-Defender list, because I really like Defenders, and I think they are viable.

I have two lists featuring two defenders.

List 1 is centered around Carnor Jax, and as a result the Defenders are Initiative 1.

2 Defenders each kitted identically

Delta Squadron, Ion Cannon, Twin Ion Engine Mk 2

Total Cost per ship: 34

Carnor Jax Interceptor

Push the Limit

Auto-Thrusters (Possibly Shield instead).

List 2 is centered around twin Defenders at Initiative 8, and a somewhat random TIE Fighter to round out the remaining points and create a 3-ship list.

Both Defenders feature Ion Cannons and Twin Ion Engine Mk 2s again.

Rexler Brath with Push the Limit

Colonel Vessery with Veteran Instincts (initiative 8 thereafter)

A 16-point TIE Fighter - Backstabber, Dark Curse, or a Black Squadron with something.

I like Ion Cannons on Defenders for Range 3 combat. If I hit something at Range 3 with the Ion Cannon, I think I'll have a chance at setting up a good firing phase the next turn.

I have a VERY hard time keeping Carnor Jax A) alive; and B) at Range 1 to take advantage of his ability.

I have an easier time making trouble with the Ion Cannons if I use the high-initiative list. Plus named pilots are fun.

Any opinions on either list?

Thanks.

I don't consider myself a defender expert, but I've used them a number of times. One thing that I've found is that the cannon is generally worthwhile on them, except for one significant problem---if you equip ion or flechette cannon and use it extensively, you simply cannot kill stuff. A cheap source of ion leaves enough room in a list to get in damage dealers, but because defenders are so expensive, there isn't any room to add other ships that can deal damage while the defenders are using ion.

Going with a named Defender gets even worse since as you noted in your 2nd list, all you can afford alongside both of them is a lowly 2 attack TIE fighter. So the biggest problem you are facing by choosing a list centred around a pair of defenders is dealing enough damage to win you games. For that reason I would strongly recommend you either rely on their primary weapon (in the case of generics) or take a heavy laser cannon on the named defenders. The HLC is of good value on the named defenders because they both have abilities that can synergize with it.

For your first list, I would suggest running naked Onyx pilots along with Jax who should be packing Push the Limit, royal guard title, autothrusters and a shield upgrade. This puts you at 99 points. The most important thing to remember when running this list is that you are not using a strong jousting list, so you cannot engage the enemy head on and expect to fare well. You need to deploy in a way that forces your opponent either to break up their formation to get at you (due to asteroids) or surprise them with moves that ensures your opponent cannot focus fire with all of his ships against any one of yours. The effectiveness of the Defender increases as the number of opponent ships go down, so you really want to spread any damage you take around and avoid getting into situations where your ships are taking a lot of damage at once.

For flying Jax, just remember that he is an interceptor and therefore dies if he gets blocked. Fly him as a flanker and turn away if enemies turn to face him (its better to run away and avoid taking damage than to get shots with him). Also, remember that his ability is nice, but don't try to force it. If you rush aggressively for range 1, he will die if shot at by more than one enemy (even one can kill him with a lucky shot and a bad defense roll on your part). Interceptors are happiest when behind the enemy, so always try to get behind them first and foremost---then start to think about using his ability (by staying range1 behind enemies when possible).

For named Defenders, they love HLC, as I mentioned, but they also need some dice modification. Offense is critical with these guys. Vessery can get away with veteran instincts thanks to his ability (assuming Brath has used target lock), but Brath needs either predator or lone wolf to get consistent damage. Alternatively, if you want to use push the limit on him, you need the TIE mk 2 modification that comes in the Punisher expansion. If you run a third ship, it would be best to have something that can take target lock as an action so that Brath isn't stuck having to do this constantly for Vessery's ability. The new TIE/fo is kind of ideal for this, since it starts at 15 points and has an extra shield compared to the academy TIE/ln

Hope that helps!

When it comes to Jax, I feel the best use is Push the Limit, Royal Guard TIE, Stealth Device, and Shield Upgrade. Autothrusters is usually great for Interceptors, but with Jax getting up close and aggressive, I feel that the above modifications are better for him. Additionally, I've never thought the unique Defenders had good abilities. I like blade's idea of loading a heavy laser cannon onto one, say Rexler Brath, and fielding one of the cheaper ones for your third ship. Personally, I've never been a big fan of ion weaponry, so that's my take. I do love to see someone trying to use Defenders (such great ships in real Star Wars, but I've heard of many people having trouble successfully fielding them in game, and I only got one myself).

The reason that Jax wants Autothrusters is because of turrets. And now that Twin Laser Turrets are the new hotness, the need for autothrusters isn't going away any time soon.

All of this is super helpful.

I don't know what "jousting" means, other than apparently it means going straight at the enemy.

I play a lot of games solo at the kitchen table to get a feel for movement, spacial reasoning, etc. It's weird, but I do it.

I have played the Rexler Brath defender fairly extensively, armed with Heavy Laser Cannon and Predator (believe it or not I came up with that by myself, since I don't read forums before this thread).

To pair with him, I ran Howlrunner (w/Swarm Tactics) and 2x Academy Pilots.

I've already figured out that I should try to force an opponent to string out/separate his force if I'm outnumbered.

The only reason I chose to put Ion Cannons is basically for Range 3 only. It denies the defender the extra evade die. And as I said, IF I get a hit on something like a B-Wing or an A-Wing at Range 3, I set myself up to close in for a kill with the primary weapons on the following turn. I thought that would be a good option.

Dark Curse as the "foil" for a third ship or Backstabber appeal to me. Dark Curse can protect himself if he's the only shot for an enemy, and Backstabber can behave like you describe a TIE Interceptor - flanks and rear.

Push the limit on Rexler Brath enables some degree of firing arc jumping while also giving him the ability to set up Vessery. My thought was that two Defenders each with a target lock can kill something relatively well each turn. If Brath has a Target Lock, Vessery does by virtual default (assuming range and arc, etc.). But this means pairing the two defenders relatively closely together. Maybe that's bad. If things work out great, Brath can use a focus to flip some damage face-up.

I see the value in Predator, too, though. I had the Twin Ion Engine Mk.II on both Vessery & Brath (making PTL a bit easier to recover from).

Is the basic suggestion that I ditch 1 named Defender (keep Brath/HLC, lose Vessery/Ion cannons), upgrade the other half of the list?

Or is the basic suggestion to use 2 cheap Defenders without cannons so that I can enhance Carnor Jax?

(or make a list of each, eh?)

Push the limit on Rexler Brath enables some degree of firing arc jumping while also giving him the ability to set up Vessery. My thought was that two Defenders each with a target lock can kill something relatively well each turn. If Brath has a Target Lock, Vessery does by virtual default (assuming range and arc, etc.). But this means pairing the two defenders relatively closely together. Maybe that's bad. If things work out great, Brath can use a focus to flip some damage face-up.

Actually you can have your two defenders nearly half a table length a part and still have overlapping firing arcs depending on the angle of your approaches.

I have tried double defenders (Vessery & Brath) but have yet to do well enough with them that I feel comfortable taking such a list to a tournament. They deal a lot of damage potentially, but I find it difficult not to lose one and then it becomes an uphill battle against multiple enemy ships.

An example:

Brath w/ Predator, ion pulse missile, HLC & Hull = 53

Vessery w/ Lone wolf, HLC & stealth = 47

I believe this is Biophysical's double defender list. Its a solid list but you cannot afford to make mistakes with it. Its possible to drop some of the upgrades to fit in a TIE such as Dark Curse/Backstabber, for example:

Brath w/ Predator, HLC & TIE mk 2 = 48

Onyx w/ ion cannon & TIE mk 2 = 36

Dark Curse/Backstabber = 16

Or,

Vessery w/ Vet Instincts, HLC & hull = 46

Onyx w/ ion cannon & TIE mk 2 = 36

Dark Curse/Backstabber with Target comp = 18

If you want to run a pair of Defenders + Interceptor, you can go with Deltas w/ Ion cannon or Onyx w/ TIE Mk 2 (although I am not sold on the value of TIE mk 2, but if you have the points, why not?)

2 Deltas w/ Ion = 33 x 2 OR 2 Onyx w/ TIE mk 2 = 33 x 2

Soontir w/ PtL, RG title, AT & TC = 34 OR Carnor Jax w/ PtL RG title, AT & hull/stealth = 34

100 either way.

You could also run a pair of Onyx without the TIE mk 2, allowing you to take Soontir w/ PtL, RG title, AT & stealth OR Jax w/ PtL, RG title, AT & shield.

@Biophysical get in here, we got a new apprentice for you.

The running competitive 2 Defender list ATM is:

Rexler: HLC, Predator, Ion Pulse Missiles, Hull Upgrade

Vessery: HLC, Lone Wolf, Stealth Device

I'm certainly in no way good enough to run a 2-ship list.

I'm a noob. I have very little exposure to the array of shenanigans to be used against me.

I just like Defenders, and I painted one quite nicely.

My LGS has open game nights and while some people play tournament practice, but I only get to play about twice a month. It takes a long time to learn this way.

Thanks again everyone.