I'm not going for a heavy squadron build, just a screen / counter build for when the enemy has pesky bombers. I've play Rhymer ball quite well, but for this build I want to know:
What are the community thoughts? Are the interceptors worth an extra 3 points for the blue die and counter attack? Should I care that the Tie's and Interceptors can be 1 shot? Should I go with Advanced for more points to havem them stick it out?
You are missing the most important bit about the Advanced. The Black die makes it much more likely to hurt a ship.
I think Escort plus a black die makes the Advanced a slam-dunk for use with a Rhymer Ball.
For general superiority, I'd use a mix of one or two activated Interceptors (to get the jump and lock bombers in place, hopefully softening them up a little) and either T/F or T/A to subsequently join the furball.
I dislike the Advanced in general.
It's an expensive meatshield that doesn't benefit from swarm, effectively an investment into a defensive squadron playstyle that does not lend itself well to the strength of Imperial squadrons, which is synergy with swarm.
I'd rather not get bogged down in engagement, depending on the escort rule to protect me, particularly since escort can often be circumvented entirely by A-wings engaging selectively. I regularly circumvent X-wing escorts by simply NOT engaging them with my Interceptors until they're the target I'm after.
I don't like them in a Rhymerball either. My bombers have HP 5 and speed 4, they can weather a round of shooting without a 12 pt shield and avoid engagement with everything short of a speed 5 interceptor, and I'd much rather have an 11 pt interceptor moving in to utterly eliminate the engaging enemy instead of sitting there for 2-3 turns plugging away with the inferior anti-squadron dice on the advanced that don't even benefit from Howlrunner OR the swarm re-roll. Those 12 pts would also be better spent on simply another bomber (which adds just as much HP total as an Advanced would) which can resolve criticals and frees up three points for bid or another Vet Captain.
For me, it comes down to TIE fighter vs TIE interceptor, and I'm often torn between them. Counter is nice, but you can generally fit more fighters in for more dice, so it starts to come down to personal preference.
In either case, support them with Howlrunner and Flight Controllers for an alpha strike that very few squadrons can withstand, including characters. Move Howlrunner with a squadron command first, she takes four dice without a re-roll. Now EVERY subsequent swarming TIE that moves in to support her this turn from that command will be dropping two extra dice with one re-roll (one from FC, one from Howlrunner). Swarm and Howlrunner also apply to Interceptor counters, giving them a three die counter with one re-roll, which is absurdly powerful against A-wings (their natural enemies, being so **** fast).
As an Imperial player, if you really want to confound Rebel interceptors, you're not going to do it by letting them shoot at you and just tanking it. Play smart, hit first, hit fast, hit hard.
Depends on the roles I plan. Fighter screen I always go Interceptor 4 Blue to attack and that GLORIOUS 3 blue counter. Advanced are a bit more thought will I escort bombers or am I trying to keep fire off a squad (Howl, Fel, etc) or do I plan on using them to hit a ship. I only throw regular Ties in if I need to fill point gaps.
To me Swarm is alright but I find Counter gives me more over all damage output
Edited by IndomitableI dislike the Advanced in general.
It's an expensive meatshield that doesn't benefit from swarm, effectively an investment into a defensive squadron playstyle that does not lend itself well to the strength of Imperial squadrons, which is synergy with swarm.
I'd rather not get bogged down in engagement, depending on the escort rule to protect me, particularly since escort can often be circumvented entirely by A-wings engaging selectively. I regularly circumvent X-wing escorts by simply NOT engaging them with my Interceptors until they're the target I'm after.
I don't like them in a Rhymerball either. My bombers have HP 5 and speed 4, they can weather a round of shooting without a 12 pt shield and avoid engagement with everything short of a speed 5 interceptor, and I'd much rather have an 11 pt interceptor moving in to utterly eliminate the engaging enemy instead of sitting there for 2-3 turns plugging away with the inferior anti-squadron dice on the advanced that don't even benefit from Howlrunner OR the swarm re-roll. Those 12 pts would also be better spent on simply another bomber (which adds just as much HP total as an Advanced would) which can resolve criticals and frees up three points for bid or another Vet Captain.
For me, it comes down to TIE fighter vs TIE interceptor, and I'm often torn between them. Counter is nice, but you can generally fit more fighters in for more dice, so it starts to come down to personal preference.
As an Imperial player, if you really want to confound Rebel interceptors, you're not going to do it by letting them shoot at you and just tanking it. Play smart, hit first, hit fast, hit hard.
Depends on your goals. Are you looking to delay the enemy forces for only a couple of rounds? A few (2-3) TIE's will do the trick.
Are you looking to just lock down enemy bombers for the whole game? Again, TIE's may suffice but a few Advanced will up the staying power.
Are you looking to lock down an enemy squadron-heavy list for the whole game? You may need some interceptors...
Personally, I've used 3 or 4 plain-jane TIEs and it's delayed enemy bombers so they couldn't start doing damage until turns 4-6.....which was my plan, so the TIE fighters did their job.
Advance for rhymer
Interceptors for anti squadron
Fighters for screens
Because Advance lack swarm, I really like using Mauler to help em out
Edited by ficklegreendiceTie Advanced + Soontir is problematic. I have to attack the advanced. Soontir does 1 damage to me. It's not great.
Don't go overboard with advanced, but having at least one to make life difficult for attacking fighters or interceptors, or conversley following up after a round of damage to your leading fighters is very useful.I dislike the Advanced in general.
It's an expensive meatshield that doesn't benefit from swarm, effectively an investment into a defensive squadron playstyle that does not lend itself well to the strength of Imperial squadrons, which is synergy with swarm.
I'd rather not get bogged down in engagement, depending on the escort rule to protect me, particularly since escort can often be circumvented entirely by A-wings engaging selectively. I regularly circumvent X-wing escorts by simply NOT engaging them with my Interceptors until they're the target I'm after.
I don't like them in a Rhymerball either. My bombers have HP 5 and speed 4, they can weather a round of shooting without a 12 pt shield and avoid engagement with everything short of a speed 5 interceptor, and I'd much rather have an 11 pt interceptor moving in to utterly eliminate the engaging enemy instead of sitting there for 2-3 turns plugging away with the inferior anti-squadron dice on the advanced that don't even benefit from Howlrunner OR the swarm re-roll. Those 12 pts would also be better spent on simply another bomber (which adds just as much HP total as an Advanced would) which can resolve criticals and frees up three points for bid or another Vet Captain.
For me, it comes down to TIE fighter vs TIE interceptor, and I'm often torn between them. Counter is nice, but you can generally fit more fighters in for more dice, so it starts to come down to personal preference.
As an Imperial player, if you really want to confound Rebel interceptors, you're not going to do it by letting them shoot at you and just tanking it. Play smart, hit first, hit fast, hit hard.
I'm not trying to argue that they're useless so much as just putting forward that they fall into a playstyle I don't personally subscribe to.
It's the same reason I avoid Liaisons.
I don't like investing points into upgrades or squadrons that are designed to make up for tactical errors. My anti-squadron strategy is entirely offensive, attacking and annihilating the enemy before they can slow down my bombers, or even just hitting them hard to take the edge off then bogging them down for as long as possible.
I can often avoid damage to my interceptors entirely using selective engagement (Engaging ONLY the fighters I know I can destroy). This basically means that once I've wiped out the fighters I engaged, the enemy either has to spend a squadron command to both move into range and shoot at my fighters (which nicely neuters even Yavaris for one turn), or use their regular squadron move to engage, letting me shoot for free, OR trying to move off and engage my bombers, which just leaves them as easy pickings for my interceptors to mop up (And usually my bombers won't be in engagement range of anything but an A-wing, which should be hurting by now anyway)
The thing about my choice of playstyle is that it is very points efficient, but I admit it takes a LOT of second guessing and pre-measuring to make work. I spend quite a bit of time on my squadron movements compared to most players I've seen.
Edited by TvayumatI agree well thought out moves, and efficient use of force is the way to go. Unfortunately no one is omniscient and therefor no plan survives contact with the enemy.
I agree well thought out moves, and efficient use of force is the way to go. Unfortunately no one is omniscient and therefor no plan survives contact with the enemy.
You're not wrong.
I would never try this strategy with Rebel fighters, for instance. I only really get away with it because the natural speed of the TIE gives me such a huge range to threaten and an advantage when it comes down to second-guessing movements. I hate A-Wings and TIE interceptors that aren't mine.
I don't like them in a Rhymerball either. My bombers have HP 5 and speed 4, they can weather a round of shooting without a 12 pt shield and avoid engagement with everything short of a speed 5 interceptor, and I'd much rather have an 11 pt interceptor moving in to utterly eliminate the engaging enemy instead of sitting there for 2-3 turns plugging away with the inferior anti-squadron dice on the advanced that don't even benefit from Howlrunner OR the swarm re-roll. Those 12 pts would also be better spent on simply another bomber (which adds just as much HP total as an Advanced would) which can resolve criticals and frees up three points for bid or another Vet Captain.
For me, it comes down to TIE fighter vs TIE interceptor, and I'm often torn between them. Counter is nice, but you can generally fit more fighters in for more dice, so it starts to come down to personal preference.
In either case, support them with Howlrunner and Flight Controllers for an alpha strike that very few squadrons can withstand, including characters. Move Howlrunner with a squadron command first, she takes four dice without a re-roll. Now EVERY subsequent swarming TIE that moves in to support her this turn from that command will be dropping two extra dice with one re-roll (one from FC, one from Howlrunner). Swarm and Howlrunner also apply to Interceptor counters, giving them a three die counter with one re-roll, which is absurdly powerful against A-wings (their natural enemies, being so **** fast).
As an Imperial player, if you really want to confound Rebel interceptors, you're not going to do it by letting them shoot at you and just tanking it. Play smart, hit first, hit fast, hit hard.
Sure, it's easy to wipe out an enemy fighter/bomber force if you spend a ton of points into into it, but those are all pretty much wasted if your opponent takes no squadrons. My focus is ships first, squadrons second, so I like the Advanced for its versatility - it rolls a black die and won't (easily) be killed by ship-based fire, so while sub-optimal in both scenarios, it's far from useless in either.
Today I faced a rebel list with 2 X-wings and 4 B-wings (and Gallant Haven with Flight Controllers!); there's no way 40 points of Fighters or Interceptors could have killed all that. On the other hand, a pair of Advanced supported by Mauler pinned them long enough to let the Rhymer ball escape with a single loss - and despite abysmal die rolls they softened both X-wings enough that they soon fell to anti-squadron fire from the VSDs. The Rhymer ball then went on its merry way to attack the Rebel carrier, while the VSD powered through the B-wing swarm (which was late to the party) and emerged -mauled, but operational- on the other side to finish the job. Sure, I lost some points in the initial engagement, but it was enough to swing a horrible matchup in my favour.
Conversely, last game my same list faced a squadronless Rebel fleet and the Advanced put out almost as much damage as the bombers, nearly disintegrating the enemy flagship (AF2A with AP) as early as round 2. Interceptors or Fighters would not have been nearly as helpful in that scenario - aside from the loss in anti-ship output, they would've quickly been torn to shreds by anti-squadron fire.
I don't know, I just can't bring myself to spend 50+ points on squadrons and cards that won't help me sink ships.
Sure, it's easy to wipe out an enemy fighter/bomber force if you spend a ton of points into into it, but those are all pretty much wasted if your opponent takes no squadrons. My focus is ships first, squadrons second, so I like the Advanced for its versatility - it rolls a black die and won't (easily) be killed by ship-based fire, so while sub-optimal in both scenarios, it's far from useless in either.
It's a balancing act, for sure. The trick is to make those points as dual purpose as possible.
This last weekend I ran 98 pts of squadrons with Flight Controllers in a tourney and didn't face a single squadron all day. Those six points were effectively wasted for the purposes of those fights, as were Howlrunner's extra 8 pts, and yet I still came out of the tournament in first place with at least one 10-0 table wipe.
TIE fighters and Interceptors blue dice are fantastic at dropping enemy shields when they have no fighters to shoot at, and Howl's scatter die keeps her alive pretty well. You can also avoid anti-squadron barrages by keeping your squadrons in the same arc as your ships, so the enemy has to either spend 7 pts on gunnery teams or pick their priorities more carefully.
Today I faced a rebel list with 2 X-wings and 4 B-wings (and Gallant Haven with Flight Controllers!); there's no way 40 points of Fighters or Interceptors could have killed all that. On the other hand, a pair of Advanced supported by Mauler pinned them long enough to let the Rhymer ball escape with a single loss - and despite abysmal die rolls they softened both X-wings enough that they soon fell to anti-squadron fire from the VSDs. The Rhymer ball then went on its merry way to attack the Rebel carrier, while the VSD powered through the B-wing swarm (which was late to the party) and emerged -mauled, but operational- on the other side to finish the job. Sure, I lost some points in the initial engagement, but it was enough to swing a horrible matchup in my favour.
You don't *need* to kill all that, you just need to prevent it from freely firing at your ships. Howlrunner + 3 TIEs (exactly 40 pts) can accomplish this quite nicely (particularly if supported by Flight Controllers) as long as you aren't just hurling your fighters into engagement with the entire furball at once, but instead using your superior speed to control when/where/who you engage.
Meanwhile, you can keep those fighters wanting to move away from Gallant Haven by simply threatening another ship with bombers.
Conversely, last game my same list faced a squadronless Rebel fleet and the Advanced put out almost as much damage as the bombers, nearly disintegrating the enemy flagship (AF2A with AP) as early as round 2. Interceptors or Fighters would not have been nearly as helpful in that scenario - aside from the loss in anti-ship output, they would've quickly been torn to shreds by anti-squadron fire.
ALMOST as much damage as the bombers, for three points more. Meh. I'd rather resolve criticals and have more points for ship upgrades. I think you may be underestimating just how devastating blue dice can be to shields. If someone doesn't bring squadrons, I'm still hitting your shield with four blue dice before my black dice ever hit the table, making those crits count.
You may also be somewhat overestimating the effectiveness of anti-squadron fire. Most ships can only plink a TIE for one damage per turn, and if it's positioned well he'll have to choose between that potential one damage or a full arc shot at a threatening ship.
I don't know, I just can't bring myself to spend 50+ points on squadrons and cards that won't help me sink ships.
Whereas I happily spend 98 each and every game, and it's yet to lose me a game, even against all-ship builds.
I think it's just delightful that both of these theories can be applied effectively. It's the sign of a well balanced game.
Edited by TvayumatLast weekend, going into a Tournament where I found out 10 minutes before the close of signups that everyone was going to be playing Imperials, I switched to rebels...
I played the game a bit by taking the AFMKIIA and the NebB escort, mostly because they had TWO anti-Squadron fire... TIE Fighters and TIE Interceptors melt under that combined fire... Sometimes in one turn.
That let me leave my Bombers (Ys and Bs) behind my ships, to move foward after the Interceptors had attempted to break the blockade.
The first game I won, he didn't have fighters anyway, but the MkIIA and the Neb-B are just as good at Anti-Ship as they always would be...
When I had TIEs, the Anti-Squadron worked a dream... Only failed me in the middle game, where a Rhymer-Ball went Chasing after a Corvette, which only had its one in return.
I stick to Advanced, because they can absorb the stupid crazy firepower of Rebel fighters... I mean when their B-wings throw 3 anti-fighter dice... Yeah, and top that with the Neb-B title that let's fighters that didn't move shoot twice... Staying power.. LOTS OF IT.
This is generally why I like B-Wings and X-Wings together. X-Wings, since they have bomber, are still useful against ships while being excellent for clearing out enemy squadrons. B-Wings, while slow, are the ultimate gunship. Yes, they want to be attacking ships with that amazing anti-ship armament. However, they're no slouch in a dogfight. In fact, when you look at it, once engaged they're identical to the Advanced. Same anti-squadron, same hull points. If I face someone with light squadrons, I can still deal lots of ship damage. If my opponent is squadron heavy, I can almost always win the dogfight. I find the best way to fly these guys is to go where I want and force the enemy to deal with me.
Adding Jan to this mix is going to be amazing. The weakness of this ball is fast interceptors pinning things down early. Jan is going to flip the bird to that interceptor while the B-Wings keep on chugging along. On the flip side, I'm terrified of the Rhymer ball and whatever Intel ship the Imps get.
Whereas I happily spend 98 each and every game, and it's yet to bite me in the ass in any significant way.
I think it's just delightful that both of these theories can be applied effectively. It's the sign of a well balanced game.
Perhaps in my local meta, where you rarely see capital ships without Gunnery Teams (not only for anti-squadron use) things are somewhat different than in yours. My Rebel opponents rarely, if ever, slow their non-carrier ships below speed 3, either, so unactivated squadrons have a tough time catching up. In my limited experience, while T/F and T/I swarms are definitely much better than an equivalent-points force of Bombers and Advanced against squadron-heavy lists, they are also markedly inferior against squadron-light or squadron-free lists. As I'm a risk-averse individual, I have a personal preference for versatility and contingency planning. But perhaps this will change as I gain more confidence - I've only recently started dropping the Tarkin/Liaison "training wheels" and gone over to the Motti side.
Agreed!Whereas I happily spend 98 each and every game, and it's yet to bite me in the ass in any significant way.
I think it's just delightful that both of these theories can be applied effectively. It's the sign of a well balanced game.
Perhaps in my local meta, where you rarely see capital ships without Gunnery Teams (not only for anti-squadron use) things are somewhat different than in yours. My Rebel opponents rarely, if ever, slow their non-carrier ships below speed 3, either, so unactivated squadrons have a tough time catching up. In my limited experience, while T/F and T/I swarms are definitely much better than an equivalent-points force of Bombers and Advanced against squadron-heavy lists, they are also markedly inferior against squadron-light or squadron-free lists. As I'm a risk-averse individual, I have a personal preference for versatility and contingency planning. But perhaps this will change as I gain more confidence - I've only recently started dropping the Tarkin/Liaison "training wheels" and gone over to the Motti side.
I'd be the first to admit that I opt for high-risk/high-reward builds with a high skill ceiling. (And a high potential for my own poor choices to be compounded)
At least, that's what I tell myself.
I've also recently migrated to Motti from my usual Screed standby. Hooray for hull points!
I've also recently migrated to Motti from my usual Screed standby. Hooray for hull points!
This is something I'm noticing myself.
Playing Rebels, and seeing the choice of Admiral across the Table... Screed only bothers me if the enemy is Intending to get to Short Range. Or Rather, wether I am intending on being trapped at Short Range. At long Range, Screed's not making a big difference...
But Motti... Motti breaks my heart right away. "Crap, you mean I'm pouring on at least *13* damage now, to kill that VSD... Fantastic. Especially when I'm intending on doing it with Bombers and Red Dice - to avoid that inevitable short range killfest.
Screed is Flashy, and demoralises you when and if he obliterates you,.
Motti demoralises you the moment a Victory hits the table.
they're both a matter of percetion
having played Motti exclusively for my imperials (which consist only of 2 VSDs and squadrons 
; someone has to be the token rebel player around these parts, eh?) I can certainly recognize his usefulness and his limtiations
most painfully, a cr-90 swarm ripping for Dominator a new one (though I suppose Dominator did lend them a hand...)
it ended in a draw, but **** when those cards started stacking Dominator's days were numbered, Motti or no
still, great command and definitely overlooked
The Advanced is hot garbage in any role other than adding extra hp to an important named squadron like Rhymer.
Per point spent, it has the same anti-ship firepower of a Tie Fighter and just ~11% more hp, but Tie fighter has 175% of the anti-squadron firepower.
Per point spent the Tie Bomber has ~178% of the Advanced anti-ship fire power and ~133% of the hp, with the advanced having 50% more anti-squadron firepower.
However, if you really want your mind blown, a tie bomber with flight controllers actually has 25% more anti-squadron firepower than an advanced per point spent, and if you straight "downgrade" two advanced squadrons to bombers to add flight controllers to a list you can actually increase your list's total anti-squadron firepower. If you already have flight controllers, the advanced only does ~6% more anti-squadron damage under flight controllers than a bomber, so you could just spend the 3 points elsewhere.
Edit (hit post instead of "more options"): the Advanced really needed swarm, or to be 10-11 points to stand up to the other squadrons in any way. It is basically an X-wing that can't crit ships and has 3 unboosted blues for anti-squadron (same as the cheaper, faster, counter 2 A-Wing, and the uber-bomber B-wing). Would you take an X-wing with those nerfs?
Edited by ToburkI love to hold my squadrons behind if I need to let them spend a turn or three to engage me. That being said, if I got a Escort Neb, I'll engage the enemy so I can use 2 turns worth of AA fire along side of the fighter skirmish.
The Advanced is hot garbage in any role other than adding extra hp to an important named squadron like Rhymer.
Per point spent, it has the same anti-ship firepower of a Tie Fighter and just ~11% more hp, but Tie fighter has 175% of the anti-squadron firepower.
Per point spent the Tie Bomber has ~178% of the Advanced anti-ship fire power and ~133% of the hp, with the advanced having 50% more anti-squadron firepower.
However, if you really want your mind blown, a tie bomber with flight controllers actually has 25% more anti-squadron firepower than an advanced per point spent, and if you straight "downgrade" two advanced squadrons to bombers to add flight controllers to a list you can actually increase your list's total anti-squadron firepower. If you already have flight controllers, the advanced only does ~6% more anti-squadron damage under flight controllers than a bomber, so you could just spend the 3 points elsewhere.
Edit (hit post instead of "more options"): the Advanced really needed swarm, or to be 10-11 points to stand up to the other squadrons in any way. It is basically an X-wing that can't crit ships and has 3 unboosted blues for anti-squadron (same as the cheaper, faster, counter 2 A-Wing, and the uber-bomber B-wing). Would you take an X-wing with those nerfs?
No, I wouldn't take the X-Wing with those nerfs. But I also wouldn't take an A-Wing if I had access to Interceptors and Howlrunner. And yet, the A-Wing is great, so maybe comparing across factions like that is a bit faulty.
The Advanced and the A-Wing are both good, because each one offers their faction a keyword or role that they wouldn't possess otherwise. The Advanced has its moments (Soontir being one of them).
I've also recently migrated to Motti from my usual Screed standby. Hooray for hull points!
This is something I'm noticing myself.
Playing Rebels, and seeing the choice of Admiral across the Table... Screed only bothers me if the enemy is Intending to get to Short Range. Or Rather, wether I am intending on being trapped at Short Range. At long Range, Screed's not making a big difference...
But Motti... Motti breaks my heart right away. "Crap, you mean I'm pouring on at least *13* damage now, to kill that VSD... Fantastic. Especially when I'm intending on doing it with Bombers and Red Dice - to avoid that inevitable short range killfest.
Screed is Flashy, and demoralises you when and if he obliterates you,.
Motti demoralises you the moment a Victory hits the table.
As a Revel player, I have to agree with this. Screed makes an already crazy combo just a bit better when it closes to short range. Motti makes everything much better immediately regardless of positioning.